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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AubreyM, Apr 5, 2021.

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  1. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    Scripture is interpreted as each person sees fit. This is how i see it. I dont necessarily agree with that though. Since Luther, we have have had millions of scripture 'experts' and thousands of denominations. Each proclaiming the truth.
     
  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's the deal. If Calvin was right about sin and grace, you reject God and choose an idol. No way around it.
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If he died for all in the way you claim, and all are not saved, his death didn't save anyone. Can't you see this?
     
  4. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    God dealt with those in Noah's day. He only saved those on the Ark. Everyone else perished for eternity.
     
  5. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    So what you are saying is there's no practical difference between this universal reconciliation model you propose and a model of reconcilation/salvation upon belief.
     
  6. spiritfilledjm

    spiritfilledjm Well-Known Member Supporter

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    John 3:16, Hebrews 10:26-27

    One must believe and repent to be saved or else there was no sacrifice for that person's sin.
     
  7. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    God's wrath was upon Israel? It was, many times. But John 3:36 wasn't speaking of Israel, or, rather, only of Israel. All throughout John 3 the tone is universal:

    John 3:16-17
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    John 3:19-20
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


    John 3:36
    36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he who believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.


    In none of these instances in John 3 is the Jew specifically and only in view. Instead, it is the entire world that is addressed. John 3:36, then, is a warning to all, not merely the Jew. And that warning tells us that God's wrath abides on the person who does not believe in the Son, Jesus Christ, as Saviour and Lord.

    Yes, Christ was sent to be the "bridge" between God and Man, the Mediator, as Paul wrote to Timothy. But only those who choose the Narrow Way (John 14:6) and embrace the "hardness" of it (Matthew 10:34-39) find eternal life with God. And Jesus said it is a minority of people who do so.

    Matthew 7:13-14
    13 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
    14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is true. My wording is; the saved will repent and believe as evidence God saved them.
     
  9. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    You are never going to please everyone.

    People are all different in various ways.

    All people are different understandings and not everyone will be on the same page together.​

    Except one way.

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved to the kingdom of God -> Jesus Christ has already paid for your sins, died on the cross once for all people -> God rose Jesus Christ up again on the third day -> If you believe this in your heart you will be saved.​

    Saved ? From my Sins? -> That was paid for already.
    Saved ? unto the Kingdom of God -> Yes.

    Anyone who believes -> accepts faith through the Lord Jesus Christ are going to be saved, -> They are saved when they believe and they are given the holy spirit -> Jesus Christ baptizes in the holy spirit -> Jesus Christ and God will work on their heart and mind -> When they continue to seek God's will, spiritually understanding, and increased in the knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

    What hope is there in God? A lot of promises made.

    Your choice to believe them or not is up to you:

    The Promises that God provides freely are :

    Relationship with God, and the Lord Jesus Christ;

    Resurrection from the dead, Peace with God being justified by Faith,

    You have the right to an inheritance in partaking and sharing in God's Kingdom now by faith which would make you a Child of God, or Son or Daughter of God if you walk by the spirit that is given,

    You are promised that God will never leave you, or forsake you.

    You are promised that you can have a prayerful relationship with God who loves and cares about everything going on in your life, and desires for you to cast your worries and burdens on Him,

    You are promised freedom of the bondage of sin, and
    the ability to overcome temptations when they are presented to you God will show you a way out,

    You are promised a renewed mind and a renewed heart by God,
    deliverance from darkness into light,

    You are also forgiven of your sins: Past; present: future and have freedom of Christ in you but you are not to use that to Sin willfully but instead live by the spirit -> For when someone loves God they will turn their will towards Him rather than their own self-will to serve themselves (God can work on your heart through this)

    You are promised if you live by the spirit to have kindness, joy, peace, love, gentleness, faithfulness.

    There are all of the promises of God that can be named from just off the top of the holy spirit/spirit of Christ with-in me. You can freely look any of these up and hopefully you will find each of them.

    Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

    My encouragement to you is to go and seek the Lord Jesus Christ, and also read what you are reading in Context, don't get lost in the wisdom of Man, and what they have to say. Go look for yourself, and test and see if what people are saying is true or not.
    What matters in this life is your Faith -> Love for God, and Love for Others.

    There are rewards God is going to give based on your faith and love towards God and towards Others. When you receive the spiritual body given by God after this life at your resurrection.​

    Enjoy your relationship with God, and understand you are called in to a inhertience to have right now on this earth through belief, your sins are forgiven evenmore so after the fact of knowing they have been paid for.

    Though in understanding you are forgiven through your life of mistakes as you walk with God it is not a license to sin and not care about God -> because showing love for God is living by the spirit, and being loving towards Others.


    Take care, God bless, and having a great rest of the evening!​
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Yes Christ did pay for the sins of the damned. That doesn’t mean that He will acknowledge them before The Father on judgement day. Nowhere does the Bible say that because Jesus died for the sins of the world that everyone will be forgiven or that are they guaranteed to be saved. Everyone will stand before Christ and either be accepted or denied by Him. His crucifixion for all man’s sin has nothing to do with whether or not we will receive salvation. He died to make salvation possible for all men.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021 at 12:08 PM
  11. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

    9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

    10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

    I've heard the argument you make before from the religions of the land I was born into. I believe Jesus had the Power to forgive the sins of the World before self proclaimed children of God crucified Him.

    Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

    My disagreement with your religious philosophy is because of the Word's of the Christ Himself. There are sins of this world that are not paid for, nor will they ever be.

    Let me ask you a question. It is written;

    1 Pet. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    Was Abel a Prophet of God?

    Matt. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    If "righteous Abel" was sent by God as Jesus implies here, then Abel would have had the Spirit of Christ in him, YES?

    That is what made him different than Cain, Yes?

    So when Cain killed Abel, was HE not Killing the Christ that was in Abel? In fact, all the Righteous men, Prophets, of the Old Testament, they had the Spirit of Christ in them. So then who were the people persecuting and killing? The Christ, YES?

    John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

    Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: (Like Abel) and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

    This is why it is so important to study for yourself. I hope i have answered your question.
     
  12. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    John 8:21-24
    21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and you shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, you cannot come.
    22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he says, Where I go, you cannot come.
    23 And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.
    24 I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

    1 John 1:8-10
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    The forgiveness of God is made available to all through the work of Christ on the cross, but it is not applied to all. Application of God's forgiveness happens only upon repentance, confession and trust in Christ as Saviour and Lord.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021 at 1:02 PM
  13. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And before that, Gameliel. And before that the Levites Priests that became "Partial in the Law", all the way back to the Serpent in the garden who quoted some of God's Word to deceive Eve. It isn't that people study God's Word in Faith and all come to a different understanding. It's "Because" of all the "other voices" in the garden we were born into. This is why Jesus said, in my view, "Man shall live by very Word which proceeds from the mouth of God". Not Luther, Not the Priests of Constantine or the Pope, not Calvin. But "Every Word" which Proceeds from the God of the Bible.
     
  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Just because the sin is paid for by Christ doesn’t mean that He is obligated to forgive it. He paid the price therefore it’s His decision to forgive or not to forgive.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That’s actually my favorite verse in the Bible. Matthew 4:4
     
  16. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Fixed the title, it was probably the most confusing part.

    Did not even realize it, my final quote been added to the OP.

    Thank you all for joining in and having the discussion.

    May the grace and peace of God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
     
  17. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Bless you brother Aubrey, really enjoyed the polite discussion here.
     
  18. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Debt was owed to God, HIS Father, Yes?. Jesus offered His Life/blood to forgive this debt. If Jesus paid the debt for everyone regardless, what is to forgive?
     
  19. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    But full authority has been given to Christ by The Father, amen? By paying the price He gets to hand out the tickets to those He chooses.

    “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.”
    ‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

    “in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:15-16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

    The scriptures plainly state several times that He did pay the price for the world’s sin, all man’s sin.

    “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
    ‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


    “We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”
    ‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


    “But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


    “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”
    ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

    I mean it’s stated several times in several different ways. That is how we can know that these are not only pertaining to a select group. That might be plausible if only one or two verses said that He died for the world but there are several saying He died for the world, the whole world, all men, all, everyone. It’s referred to too many times in too many different ways to be taken any other way.
     
  20. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You didn't answer my question. And the Scriptures you posted didn't answer the question either.

    Is satan's debt paid? Is every person who died, before Jesus was crucified, debt to God paid?? Listen to what your guys are declaring?

    “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.”

    So if HE paid everyone's debt to God, both the living and the dead, then what is to forgive since you are preaching that He paid everyone debt, but not everyone will be forgiven their debt.

    Whose debt will God not forgive if Jesus paid everyone's debt.

    Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    If "EVERYONE'S" death owed to God for rebellion against Him has been paid by the Christ, then why do I need to find the Path that leads to life?

    Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I (Jesus) profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    How can He pay the Debt of folks He doesn't even know?

    Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    What does it mean to "deny" him before His Father? If his debt is already paid, what's to deny?

    Even Israel coming out of Egypt had to follow the instructions regarding the Blood of the Lamb, for the "Death Angel" to pass over them. Their debt was paid, the Egyptians and Israelite who didn't believe in the instructions, were not paid.

    John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    But wait, You are preaching that HE already "paid" the death these people owed to HIS Father. How is it Jesus is requiring more?

    Given all the Scriptures written on this, I think God sent HIS own Son who offered HIS Life for the Sins of the World, that "Whosoever" believes on Him, God will accept the LIFE HE offered as payment for the debt they owe.

    No one is excluded. Anyone who chooses to follow the instructions regarding Salvation, shall have HIS Debt paid. People who want to find another way, another path, or reject the Christ all together, are still in debt to God.
     
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