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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AubreyM, Apr 5, 2021.

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  1. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Thank you for sharing that and you know what that is such a truthful statement.

    Going to add this to the main post.
     
  2. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Member

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    i gotta be honest, i cant tell if the OP is coming or going. but i think what he is saying is that Jesus' death covered all sins? even the non-believers sins? to this, i say wrong.

    remember the acronym TULIP. specifically the L, which stands for limited atonement. this is how Jesus' death is only for those of the elect. to explain this, R. C. sproul used to say "Christ' atonement was sufficient for all, but efficient only for some, the elect.
     
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  3. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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  4. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Its... Not forgave all sins... He bore the penalty for all sins. Bore for all. Not forgave all. He took away the penalty for sin. They will still need to be forgiven for something else!

    The penalty Jesus paid for was?

    About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")." Mat 27:46​


    The very worst person going to Hell will not be judged for his/her sins.

    If Jesus did not die (spiritually forsaken) on the Cross for all mankind? God would have forsaken all of us, and He would have never been able to offer the opportunity to believe.

    Because of the Cross? No unbelievers' sins will be mentioned at their final judgment.

    And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,
    and books were opened. And another book was opened,
    which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged
    according to their works, by the things which were written
    in the books."
    Rev 20:12​


    Jesus took upon himself the penalty for our sins. Therefore.. There can be no penalty/judgement for our sins! Unbelievers will instead be judged according to their works.

    After searching the book, the absence of the one single work will condemn the unbeliever. That work absent will be?

    Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

    Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one
    he has sent.”
    Jn 6:28-29

    No sins will be mentioned at the final judgment of the unbeliever. All penalty fell upon Jesus as he bore our sins, and for the sins of the whole world.

    The unbeliever will be condemned because they never believed in Jesus, not their sins. That one thing Jesus could not pay for. If He had paid the penalty for that one thing? He would have had to reject Himself. The absence of the work of believing in Jesus is what will condemn the unbeliever. His sins will not be mentioned.

    in Christ....
     
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  5. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You might recall that Christ will appear a second time to those who look for him. If you don’t believe, your damned also comes to mind. Seek and ye shall find.

    Mark.16
    1. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
     
  6. Tigger45

    Tigger45 “... But we have the mind of Christ.” Supporter

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    Jesus only told one of the two criminals crucified with him that he would be with Him today in paradise.

    Luke 23:
    32 Two others, both criminals, were led out to be executed with him. 33 When they came to a place called The Skull, they nailed him to the cross. And the criminals were also crucified—one on his right and one on his left.

    34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.

    35 The crowd watched and the leaders scoffed. “He saved others,” they said, “let him save himself if he is really God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.” 36 The soldiers mocked him, too, by offering him a drink of sour wine. 37 They called out to him, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!” 38 A sign was fastened above him with these words: “This is the King of the Jews.”

    39 One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, “So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself—and us, too, while you’re at it!”

    40 But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

    43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
     
  7. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I get that his death covered all sins, but that forgiveness being applied is conditional on faith.
     
  8. GraceBro

    GraceBro Eternally Forgiven, Alive, and Secure.

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    The only sin that will send a person to Hell is the sin of unbelief in Jesus Christ. All other sins have been forgiven by God.

    "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me ... (John 16:8-9)"

    "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:19)."

    "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2)."

    Grace and Peace
     
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  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    This is a discussion forum. What were you planning to do instead?
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Say what?
    And the 6 billion or so Chinese? What about them? Lots of other folks fit this situation. Countless billions. As you say, "God knows."
    It basically invalidates your claim.
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That is not a claim of Universalism.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    1 John 2:2
    He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
     
  13. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OK, lets cut to the chase, although you seem to have gone timid on me when it comes to coming right out with it, you are saying we need not repent, somthing I disagree with whole heartedly.

    What would be your reasoning for that again?
     
  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This forgiveness is our example of how God desires for us also to forgive >

    "forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you" (in Ephesians 4:31-32)
     
  15. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    People repent they change their mind. Many people change their minds about many things in life over time. Repentance does happen to while being a Christian.

    Not saying that repentance doesn’t happen.

    A change of mind comes by choice, and many people have to make a choice between listening to God by and through listening and hearing and learning about God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The point am suggesting is whether or not you have done this yet, if you read the entire first post is; all of sins have been forgiven already before you were born.

    God desires a relationship with you now today, and has forgiven all of your sins already. So you have been saved from them.

    If you make the choice to turn towards God because he has done this for you, and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ they are ready and willing to have a relationship with you now today.

    All have been saved from their sins.

    All have not been saved unto the kingdom of God, unless you change your mind about learning about Jesus Christ and having a relationship with God and the Lord.

    Cognate: 3341 metánoia – literally, "a change of mind" ("after-thought"); repentance. See 3340/metanoeō ("repent").
     
  16. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah ch 18, the potter and clay chapter, explains what Paul was writing in Romans ch 9, and the Calvinist interpretation is absolutely wrong.

    The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is about NATIONS not individuals.


    As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


    And Israel, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not any one person.


    The Potter and the Clay.

    Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

    Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

    Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

    Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

    Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

    Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


    We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


    No nation is predestined to destruction.


    Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

    Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

    Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

    Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


    This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


    God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


    That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed dogma regarding God being immutable.
     
  17. Jaxxi

    Jaxxi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While this is a nice post, the emphasis needs to be on repentance. Without repentance one will go to hell REGARDLESS of what Jesus Christ did. In order to accept the beautiful gift our Lord gave to us, we must do our part. That is the biggest problem facing the dead is that many of them were taught by their church " Christ died for your Sins. Christ died for the salvation of humanity." And while this is true, the statement is not complete! Those statements make it sound like you don't have to do anything. And you do!! You must repent and turn from your sin to be forgiven! It's like God met so many halfway but they didn't do their part so the bridge collapses, and they fell . Once dead, the judgement falls and He cannot help you.

    I tell you, nay; but unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Luke 13:5

    Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the works as at first; or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, unless thou repent. Revelation 2:5

    Those scripture alone are enough to see that Repentance is the most important message in the Bible as far as salvation goes. It is right under 'grace'.
     
  18. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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  19. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Added repentance to front post jaxxi. Thank you. Going back to bed.
     
  20. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Incorrect.

    Christ did not die for everyone in the world, repent or not. That is false. He died for HIS PEOPLE who he has chosen.

    Mat 1:21
    (21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Joh 3:16-17
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



     
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