Now electric vehicles are BAD for the environment

[Aldebaran]

Any size solar panel will increase the power in a battery. And a normal size installation for a house (say 6.6kW which is what I'm thinking of) will charge an EV in one day, assuming all electrical appliances are not running. In two days if the house is running as normal (and you can reverse the flow and run your house off your car if necessary). So yeah, with a relatively small installation then you can run your car and your house.

There quite an upfront cost of around $12,000 (after credits). Wisconsin Guide to Solar

 

[Bradskii]

There quite an upfront cost of around $12,000 (after credits). Wisconsin Guide to Solar

Mine's about U$4,300.

And checking some average costs for a similar size (6kW) in the US and it's an eye watering U$18,500. What the..? Solar Panel Installation Costs | 2021 Solar Price Guide | Modernize

I have to say that I wouldn't get it done at that price. Payback would be 15-20 years at my current electricity prices.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

A bicycle perhaps?

Yes bikes, horse and walking are the best idea. We really should encourage this move. Americanas, including myself, are out of shape. I wish I was taught a better lifestyle, when I was a kid. But wasn't. Gas is also bad for the environment.

 

[Aldebaran]

Mine's about U$4,300.

And checking some average costs for a similar size (6kW) in the US and it's an eye watering U$18,500. What the..? Solar Panel Installation Costs | 2021 Solar Price Guide | Modernize

I have to say that I wouldn't get it done at that price. Payback would be 15-20 years at my current electricity prices.

They'll have to become even more efficient, or the prices will have to drop some more, or the government will have to keep stifling growth elsewhere so that prices on everything else goes up to match the price of solar.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes bikes, horse and walking are the best idea. We really should encourage this move. Americanas, including myself, are out of shape. I wish I was taught a better lifestyle, when I was a kid. But wasn't. Gas is also bad for the environment.

Well, as I said, I already bike ride if it's not too far and I don't have to carry much and the weather isn't too bad. But it's more of a supplemental transportation for when it's possible to use rather than a main source.

 

[Bradskii]

They'll have to become even more efficient, or the prices will have to drop some more, or the government will have to keep stifling growth elsewhere so that prices on everything else goes up to match the price of solar.

I did some searching on why it's so expensive as compared to down here. And the article is 4 years old and prices have dropped further in Australia: Why does home solar energy cost so much in the United States? - Marginal REVOLUTION

"Here in the land of technology leadership and free-market enterprise, American regulation has more than doubled the cost of solar.

The regulation comes in three un-American guises: permitting, code and tariffs — and together they are killing the U.S. residential market. Modernizing these regulations, primarily at the local and state level, is the greatest opportunity for U.S. solar policy in 2018.

To highlight the opportunity, let’s look at Australia, where nearly 2 million solar systems have been successfully and safely installed.

As of early December, installed costs in the main Australian markets were at $1.34 per watt, compared to $3.25 per watt in the U.S. What does that difference stem from?

In Australia, there is no permitting process. You simply lodge your request for interconnection online and go install it. The figure below highlights the relative mass of valueless work required to satisfy current city-level bureaucracy in the U.S., which adds between two and six months to delivery time and 47 cents per watt of cost directly to the installed system. That’s more than the cost of the panels themselves!

…the U.S. National Electrical Code dictates a best practice that more than doubles the installation time relative to Australia, and adds incremental hardware expense — together adding 49 cents per watt to the cost of solar. There is no discernable difference in the quality and safety of solar installations overseas relative to the U.S.

…There are no tariffs on imported hardware in Australia because it’s obvious to all that the jobs in solar are in sales and installation, not in manufacturing. That’s another 21 cents per watt in the Australians’ pocket — and a thousand dollars back into the economy per system sold.

And because solar is so much cheaper, as well as faster and easier to buy, it’s also much cheaper, faster and easier to sell. Acquisition costs in Australia average $400 per installed customer, compared to $2,500 in the U.S.

At lower cost and without the two- to six-month wait time and all of the permitting complexity, cancellation rates are minimal, compared to an average of about 30 percent for reputable U.S. companies. How many other electronics purchases do you know of that take up to half a year to be installed? That’s another 42 cents per watt of lower solar costs."

 

[Bradskii]

And possible solutions: How to Halve the Cost of Residential Solar in the US

"Three regulatory changes can immediately half the cost of residential solar.

1. Replace permits with online applications, a process that has been successfully demonstrated overseas.
2. Remove the unnecessary elements of the NEC code that make no discernable impact on the resulting safety and quality of solar installations, as has also been proven overseas.
3. Kill tariffs that kill domestic jobs and let the free market deliver high-quality, cheap panels.

We could more than halve the cost of solar with the stroke of a pen -- well, I guess that’s really three strokes of pen, but I’d take that.

Despite our entering the new year saddled with a protectionist federal government focused on prolonging outdated and uncompetitive combustion technology, the good news is that state and city policy dominates the solar opportunity. Federal tariffs currently represent only 20 cents of a roughly $2 problem."

 

[Aldebaran]

And possible solutions: How to Halve the Cost of Residential Solar in the US

"Three regulatory changes can immediately half the cost of residential solar.

1. Replace permits with online applications, a process that has been successfully demonstrated overseas.
2. Remove the unnecessary elements of the NEC code that make no discernable impact on the resulting safety and quality of solar installations, as has also been proven overseas.
3. Kill tariffs that kill domestic jobs and let the free market deliver high-quality, cheap panels.

We could more than halve the cost of solar with the stroke of a pen -- well, I guess that’s really three strokes of pen, but I’d take that.

Despite our entering the new year saddled with a protectionist federal government focused on prolonging outdated and uncompetitive combustion technology, the good news is that state and city policy dominates the solar opportunity. Federal tariffs currently represent only 20 cents of a roughly $2 problem."

It would seem that less government regulation really would help the solar industry just as it does the rest of the economy. That's what Trump did, and things really took off. Now the regulations keep getting piled on. If they really want to push solar, they need to stop saddling it with regulations. Killing off oil and natural gas jobs and infrastructure to raise the price of those things isn't the way to go.

 

[Bradskii]

It would seem that less government regulation really would help the solar industry just as it does the rest of the economy. That's what Trump did, and things really took off. Now the regulations keep getting piled on. If they really want to push solar, they need to stop saddling it with regulations. Killing off oil and natural gas jobs and infrastructure to raise the price of those things isn't the way to go.

You really should read the article. Government red tape accounts for about 10% of the cost. The main reason you pay more (apart from the cost of the panels themselves) is because of state regulations. And don't give me any bull about Trump. He did squat for solar. In fact, he was the guy that helped make it more expensive:

"In early 2018, the Trump administration imposed steep tariffs on foreign solar panels. Trump’s tariffs are estimated to have blocked 10.5 gigawatts of solar capacity from coming on line, enough to power 1.8 million homes with carbon-free energy, according to the SEIA. U.S. prices for solar panels are now among the highest in the world." Trump's War on Solar

I mean, you really should check on your facts before making knee-jerk politically biased comments.

 

[Aldebaran]

You really should read the article. Government red tape accounts for about 10% of the cost. The main reason you pay more (apart from the cost of the panels themselves) is because of state regulations. And don't give me any bull about Trump. He did squat for solar. In fact, he was the guy that helped make it more expensive:

"In early 2018, the Trump administration imposed steep tariffs on foreign solar panels. Trump’s tariffs are estimated to have blocked 10.5 gigawatts of solar capacity from coming on line, enough to power 1.8 million homes with carbon-free energy, according to the SEIA. U.S. prices for solar panels are now among the highest in the world." Trump's War on Solar

I mean, you really should check on your facts before making knee-jerk politically biased comments.

In this country, it was deregulation that was one of the dirty words the Left didn't like, but resulted in economic growth. Too many regulations, and outdated ones as well add to costs, delays, and denial of permission for projects. The Keystone XL pipeline is an example, and a direct result of our biden.

 

[Bradskii]

In this country, it was deregulation that was one of the dirty words the Left didn't like, but resulted in economic growth. Too many regulations, and outdated ones as well add to costs, delays, and denial of permission for projects. The Keystone XL pipeline is an example, and a direct result of our biden.

As I said, speak to your state representative. He or she is the person responsible (along with the last guy in the Casa Blanca). Whether Democrat or Republican. Please try to focus on something that is at least associated with the op.

 

[Aldebaran]

As I said, speak to your state representative. He or she is the person responsible (along with the last guy in the Casa Blanca). Whether Democrat or Republican. Please try to focus on something that is at least associated with the op.

You're the one (in post #66) that introduced the issue of regulation in the discussion. I simply addressed that point. Perhaps I should just let you do all the talking in our next discussion.

 

[Bradskii]

You're the one (in post #66) that introduced the issue of regulation in the discussion. I simply addressed that point. Perhaps I should just let you do all the talking in our next discussion.

And I was the one that told you that 90% of the costly regulation is handled by the states. Not the federal government. Talk to your state rep about that. And talk to the federal Democrats about reversing the tariifs that the last guy put on solar panels. Maybe then you'll have a chance to catch up with the rest of the world.

 

[Aldebaran]

And I was the one that told you that 90% of the costly regulation is handled by the states. Not the federal government. Talk to your state rep about that. And talk to the federal Democrats about reversing the tariifs that the last guy put on solar panels. Maybe then you'll have a chance to catch up with the rest of the world.

Those tariffs should be there. More should be made in this country instead of imported from China.

 

[Bradskii]

Those tariffs should be there. More should be made in this country instead of imported from China.

You're obviously not making enough of them:

'Solar panels aren’t really made in the United States anymore, even though the market for them is larger than ever. Starting in the 1980s, leadership in the industry passed to Japan, then to China. Today, only one of the world’s 10 largest makers of solar cells is American.

After 1980, Reagan also weakened federal environmental rules while dismantling the new Department of Energy, removing support for alternative energy sources such as solar power.

American manufacturers had already been struggling to compete with imports from East Asia. Now they foundered. Start-ups shut down; experts left the industry. Corporate raiders forced oil companies, such as Exxon, to sell or close their small solar R&D divisions. The United States, the country that once produced all the world’s solar panels, saw its market share crash. In 1990, U.S. firms produced 32 percent of solar panels worldwide; by 2005, they made only nine percent.' https://www.theatlantic.com/science...olar-panels-anymore-industrial-policy/619213/

And the ones you make are waaay more expensive than anyone else's. It's a simple matter of economy of scale. So instead of importing ship loads of panels and cutting out the red tape to boost the industry and get your Prices for free power down to something at least approaching other countries, nobody has done anything about the labyrinthian and extroardinarily expensive documentation you need and the last guys slaps a tarrif on imported panels.

Biden has put in to congress for $35 billion for clean energy r & d. But that's not enough - and it's manufacturing you need to concentrate on.

If you really tried to make it more expensive, I'm not sure there's anything else you could do.

 

[Aldebaran]

You're obviously not making enough of them:

'Solar panels aren’t really made in the United States anymore, even though the market for them is larger than ever. Starting in the 1980s, leadership in the industry passed to Japan, then to China. Today, only one of the world’s 10 largest makers of solar cells is American.

After 1980, Reagan also weakened federal environmental rules while dismantling the new Department of Energy, removing support for alternative energy sources such as solar power.

American manufacturers had already been struggling to compete with imports from East Asia. Now they foundered. Start-ups shut down; experts left the industry. Corporate raiders forced oil companies, such as Exxon, to sell or close their small solar R&D divisions. The United States, the country that once produced all the world’s solar panels, saw its market share crash. In 1990, U.S. firms produced 32 percent of solar panels worldwide; by 2005, they made only nine percent.' https://www.theatlantic.com/science...olar-panels-anymore-industrial-policy/619213/

And the ones you make are waaay more expensive than anyone else's. It's a simple matter of economy of scale. So instead of importing ship loads of panels and cutting out the red tape to boost the industry and get your Prices for free power down to something at least approaching other countries, nobody has done anything about the labyrinthian and extroardinarily expensive documentation you need and the last guys slaps a tarrif on imported panels.

Biden has put in to congress for $35 billion for clean energy r & d. But that's not enough - and it's manufacturing you need to concentrate on.

If you really tried to make it more expensive, I'm not sure there's anything else you could do.

The only thing is to try to make traditional and more efficient forms of energy so much more expensive that they pass the price of solar, and then our democrats in office can say, "Solar is now cheaper than oil/natural gas/nuclear/coal.

 

[Bradskii]

The only thing is to try to make traditional and more efficient forms of energy so much more expensive that they pass the price of solar, and then our democrats in office can say, "Solar is now cheaper than oil/natural gas/nuclear/coal.

Past experience makes it extremely difficult to tell whether you are serious or not.

 

[Aldebaran]

Past experience makes it extremely difficult to tell whether you are serious or not.

Since you claim to know so much about American politics, what did Obama say about coal power plants and how his policies would affect their cost, and the cost of energy as a result? (Don't bother deflecting with "But....but obama isn't president anymore!", and just answer the question).

 

[Bradskii]

Since you claim to know so much about American politics, what did Obama say about coal power plants and how his policies would affect their cost, and the cost of energy as a result? (Don't bother deflecting with "But....but obama isn't president anymore!", and just answer the question).

He was smart enough, and honest enough, to tell the people want they didn't want to hear but what they needed to know - that a reliance on coal was going to cost them. Hence his push for other forms of energy, including solar and wind. But it seems that you've dropped the ball since and are paying extortionate amounts for all forms.

You need to get your act together and join the rest of the world. At least you're back in the Paris Agreement.

 

[Aldebaran]

He was smart enough, and honest enough, to tell the people want they didn't want to hear but what they needed to know - that a reliance on coal was going to cost them. Hence his push for other forms of energy, including solar and wind. But it seems that you've dropped the ball since and are paying extortionate amounts for all forms.

You need to get your act together and join the rest of the world. At least you're back in the Paris Agreement.

Getting out of that agreement and becoming energy independent for the first time in our history was the best thing we did for our energy needs. President Trump did that for us, and biden threw it away.