Never Meant to be saved

[Maria Billingsley]

Whether you meant to or not, you just answered that self-determinism is the non-Calvinist view. That's rather condemning of the non-Calvinist view, I think.

If you say so.

 

[5thKingdom]

Limited to those who believe. Those sheep chose to believe and therefore become the elect. Blessings.

They do not "become elect" by doing a "work"...
They were elected before the foundation of the world.
... according to the "good pleasure of His will"


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


You have a PROBLEM...
The Bible insists Salvation is NOT because of what man does:
You can intentionally ignore Scripture but that does not make you false doctrines PART of the Gospel
The Gospel is of Sovereign Grace... it is NOT on the will of man... but of God that shows unmerited mercy.


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


I can give you Scriptures all day long teaching it is GOD who chooses His Elect
And that NO MAN can believe unless/until they are regenerated.


You cannot give Scriptures teaching Salvation is by "works"...
either saying a "sinner's prayer" of making an altar call, or being baptized,
of "inviting" Jesus into your heart" or DECIDING (a "work") to "believe"...
there are NO SUCH VERSES.


Yes, men "believe" unto salvation...
but ONLY those "elected" before the foundation of the world CAN (truly) "believe"


And yet you follow a synergistic "gospel"...
Which is the BROAD WAY that lead Christians into eternal damnation

Instead of the narrow way of the Gospel of the Bible
which recognizes it is GOD (not man) that decides who is elect.


I do not expect to change your mind.
Just know your doctrine contradicts TONS of Scripture.
It was declared to be "another gospel" from the start and
it was declared to be "heresy" throughout the Church Age.


Jim

 

[Maria Billingsley]

They do not "become elect" by doing a "work"...
They were elected before the foundation of the world.
... according to the "good pleasure of His will"


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


You have a PROBLEM...
The Bible insists Salvation is NOT because of what man does:
You can intentionally ignore Scripture but that does not make you false doctrines PART of the Gospel
The Gospel is of Sovereign Grace... it is NOT on the will of man... but of God that shows unmerited mercy.


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


I can give you Scriptures all day long teaching it is GOD who chooses His Elect
And that NO MAN can believe unless/until they are regenerated.


You cannot give Scriptures teaching Salvation is by "works"...
either saying a "sinner's prayer" of making an altar call, or being baptized,
of "inviting" Jesus into your heart" or DECIDING (a "work") to "believe"...
there are NO SUCH VERSES.


Yes, men "believe" unto salvation...
but ONLY those "elected" before the foundation of the world CAN (truly) "believe"


And yet you follow a synergistic "gospel"...
Which is the BROAD WAY that lead Christians into eternal damnation

Instead of the narrow way of the Gospel of the Bible
which recognizes it is GOD (not man) that decides who is elect.


I do not expect to change your mind.
Just know your doctrine contradicts TONS of Scripture.
It was declared to be "another gospel" from the start and
it was declared to be "heresy" throughout the Church Age.


Jim

If you say so.
Be blessed.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
They do not "become elect" by doing a "work"...
They were elected before the foundation of the world.
... according to the "good pleasure of His will"

If you say so.
Be blessed.

That is not what I say...
that is what the BIBLE says

/

 

[Mark Quayle]

They do not "become elect" by doing a "work"...
They were elected before the foundation of the world.
... according to the "good pleasure of His will"

Indeed! —Before they had done anything good or bad, God had already differentiated his work through one from his work through the other, and his choice of one over the other. Romans 9

 

[Unqualified]

5thKingdom said:
They do not "become elect" by doing a "work"...
They were elected before the foundation of the world.
... according to the "good pleasure of His will"




That is not what I say...
that is what the BIBLE says

/

They become elect by believing in Jesus. God doesn’t create people to go to hell. He wants everyone to be saved. He is working in every one of our lives to that end. The word chosen in Eph 1:4 has nothing to to do the word elect. Many are called but few are chosen. Eph1:4 could be God chose those in Him for a closer walk. That they should be holy and without blame. He knows the chosen from the foundation of the world. But the door is still open if we open it. Many more will get saved and be the elect even in the GT.

The elect has always been Israel, but many of them lost their salvation. And look at the GA now. Many are losing their salvation and are on the fence. It’s not a closed set of people the elect. Many are coming and going. The lord knows who they are and who will be the final set. All who come, not everybody will, are predestinatEd to this closer walk. All can come all, all have this chance to be saved even with a reprobate mind. Cuz God loves us all, guides with his eye or with anger. The church is out there. Ever wonder how a totally reprobate sinner can be convicted and end up in a church- the HS.

God knows his elect. We have been grafted in so don’t get too proud over this thing. What is your limit what will turn you away from Christ. What fiery dart are you susceptible to. But if you have none are you the elect. God chastises those he loves.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
They do not "become elect" by doing a "work"...
They were elected before the foundation of the world.
... according to the "good pleasure of His will"

Indeed! —Before they had done anything good or bad, God had already differentiated his work through one from his work through the other, and his choice of one over the other. Romans 9

I am (always) glad to see someone AGREE with the monergistic Gospel of Grace
Which is the narrow way that leads Christians into eternal life.

Instead of the prevailing false doctrine in the Churches of a synergistic "works" gospel
Which is the BROAD WAY that leads Christians into eternal torment

Today there are FEW who follow a true Gospel of Grace.

/

 

[5thKingdom]

They become elect by believing in Jesus.

Correct, but the Bible is clear that ONLY those elected before the foundation of the world
CAN believe.

The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN (no, not even one) would "seek God" before regeneration {Rom 3:10-12]
This is the Gospel of Grace.

The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Christ and He will lose NONE of them...
This is the Gospel of Grace

God doesn’t create people to go to hell. He wants everyone to be saved.

LOL...

The Bible is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" and they were NEVER MEANT
to understand the Gospel and they were NEVER MEANT to be converted and they were NEVER MEANT
to have their sins forgiven.


Mar 4:11-12
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


The Bible is crystal clear that some men were CREATED some men to be "vessels of honour"
while He CREATED other men to be "vessels of dishounour"... that God CREATED some men to be "vessels of mercy"
while He CREATED other men to be "vessels of wrath"


Rom 9:21-22
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory,

He is working in every one of our lives to that end.

If God was "working" to save everyone...
then everyone would be saved. But HELL is heavily populated
proving your theory to be wrong.

The word chosen in Eph 1:4 has nothing to to do the word elect. Many are called but few are chosen.

Wrong... it has EVERYTHING to do with being elect.

Listen, the Church has debated this issue for 2000 years.
Some people believe Christ PAID for the sins of everyone
while some believe He PAID only for "His sheep"

There is NOTHING you can add to this debate
The reality is you believe in a synergistic "works" gospel when
the Bible teaches a monergistic Gospel of Sovereign Grace

The elect has always been Israel, but many of them lost their salvation.

The elect WAS Israel BEFORE Christ came...

Now the elect are Christians, so you have no argument here

because the CONTEXT of the NT is Christians who were "harvested" OUT of the Jewish Kingdom


Joh 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes,
and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


Joh 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this [Jewish] fold: them [the Gentiles] also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And look at the GA now. Many are losing their salvation and are on the fence.

Salvation = Eternal Life
If you think someone can LOSE what is eternal
then you do not understand the NATURE of eternal life

All who come, not everybody will, are predestinatEd to this closer walk.

All who are predestinated SHALL COME... and Christ will lose NONE of them:
For you to pretend that some who He Called do NOT become Justified and Glorified
is simply you REJECTING what the Bible clearly teaches.


Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called,
them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

All can come all, all have this chance to be saved even with a reprobate mind.

Really?
Did all the Gentiles have the chance of salvation during the OT Kingdom?


Do all the "children of Satan" have a chance of salvation?


Your lack of understanding is because you do not understand that JESUS PROMISED
the Christian church consists of TWO (2) types of people


(1) the saved "wheat/sheep" in the church (sown by Jesus and) destined to eternal life and
(2) the unsaved "tares/goats" in the church (sown by Satan and) destined to eternal torment


Your false doctrine pretends the "children of Satan" can be saved.
The Bible PROMISES that is a false doctrine.

Cuz God loves us all,

LOL...
that is not found in the Bible
that is a Secular false gospel

Just TRY to support your theory with SCRIPTURE


/

 

[Unqualified]

Correct, but the Bible is clear that ONLY those elected before the foundation of the world
CAN believe.

The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN (no, not even one) would "seek God" before regeneration {Rom 3:10-12]
This is the Gospel of Grace.

The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Christ and He will lose NONE of them...
This is the Gospel of Grace





LOL...

The Bible is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" and they were NEVER MEANT
to understand the Gospel and they were NEVER MEANT to be converted and they were NEVER MEANT
to have their sins forgiven.


Mar 4:11-12
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


The Bible is crystal clear that some men were CREATED some men to be "vessels of honour"
while He CREATED other men to be "vessels of dishounour"... that God CREATED some men to be "vessels of mercy"
while He CREATED other men to be "vessels of wrath"


Rom 9:21-22
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory,






If God was "working" to save everyone...
then everyone would be saved. But HELL is heavily populated
proving your theory to be wrong.





Wrong... it has EVERYTHING to do with being elect.

Listen, the Church has debated this issue for 2000 years.
Some people believe Christ PAID for the sins of everyone
while some believe He PAID only for "His sheep"

There is NOTHING you can add to this debate
The reality is you believe in a synergistic "works" gospel when
the Bible teaches a monergistic Gospel of Sovereign Grace





The elect WAS Israel BEFORE Christ came...

Now the elect are Christians, so you have no argument here

because the CONTEXT of the NT is Christians who were "harvested" OUT of the Jewish Kingdom


Joh 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes,
and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


Joh 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this [Jewish] fold: them [the Gentiles] also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.





Salvation = Eternal Life
If you think someone can LOSE what is eternal
then you do not understand the NATURE of eternal life





All who are predestinated SHALL COME... and Christ will lose NONE of them:
For you to pretend that some who He Called do NOT become Justified and Glorified
is simply you REJECTING what the Bible clearly teaches.


Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called,
them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.




Really?
Did all the Gentiles have the chance of salvation during the OT Kingdom?


Do all the "children of Satan" have a chance of salvation?


Your lack of understanding is because you do not understand that JESUS PROMISED
the Christian church consists of TWO (2) types of people


(1) the saved "wheat/sheep" in the church (sown by Jesus and) destined to eternal life and
(2) the unsaved "tares/goats" in the church (sown by Satan and) destined to eternal torment


Your false doctrine pretends the "children of Satan" can be saved.
The Bible PROMISES that is a false doctrine.





LOL...
that is not found in the Bible
that is a Secular false gospel

Just TRY to support your theory with SCRIPTURE


/

You pretend to know GOD.

 

[Unqualified]

L...

The Bible is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" and they were NEVER MEANT
to understand the Gospel and they were NEVER MEANT to be converted and they were NEVER MEANT
to have their sins forgiven.

I was pointing out that the rapture scenario has been repeated so many times that it has become part of popular culture. It may be part of popular culture but it is not in the Bible.

I do put the Battle of Armageddon before the Millenium. There will be another battle of some sort at the close of the Millenium.

Here is a verse that rules out a Rapture (apart from the Second Coming). The context is that Jesus is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane before his arrest.

I [Jesus] have given them your word and the world has hated them,
for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that
you protect them from the evil one.
John 17:14-15 NIV

Jesus plainly says that He is not asking the Father to remove His disciples and followers from the earth. Instead, His prayer is that they be protected from temptation, or strengthened to resist temptation.

Do all the "children of Satan" have a chance of salvation?

Do all the "children of Satan" have a chance of salvation?

Acts 26:18, 2Cor 4:4 it is possible for the light to shine on them, Eph 6:12, we struggle against wickedness on their behalf, it’s not just the flesh we battle, God can lift their blindness. Satan has blinded them, we have power over satan. The HS convicts, love conquers, we come to our senses.

John 3:16 still holds true, God loves his people God loves those in the world.

LOL...
that is not found in the Bible
that is a Secular false gospel

You don’t believe the scriptures and cannot believe as a little child.

 

[Mark Quayle]

5thKingdom said:
Do all the "children of Satan" have a chance of salvation?
Unqualified said:
All can come all, all have this chance to be saved even with a reprobate mind.

@5thKingdom quotes what @Unqualified assumes, that the notion of 'chance' is of substance. I don't know if 5thK agrees there is anything to the notion or not, but that is immaterial to my point.

When I have brought this subject up before, people immediately begin objecting, crying out quickly, "What I am referring to is 'opportunity', not 'chance'!", to which I want to respond, "Then, why didn't you say so?? —Do you not realize that because of use, people have become accustomed to assuming substance to 'the rule of chance'?"

Here is my point: Chance cannot do anything. It is logically self-contradictory to think that something can happen by chance. But we've been doing it since Adam's time. It's at best a shortcut, a stand-in, for, "I don't know the reason(s).", or "I don't have time here to conjecture on the reason(s).".

"Opportunity" isn't much better. If we are to ask, "Do all the "children of Satan" have an opportunity for salvation", it almost seems an incomplete question —perhaps we would have to describe just how the opportunity presents, or what one is to do upon that presentation, if it is to be demonstrated to actually be an opportunity.

What is really being discussed here, if there is any substance to it, is CHOICE. But the Arminian can't let it be called that. Because it is plain that the mind of the natural man will never choose God. Notice how quickly the argument descends into non-argument when the question of the choice of the natural man draws close!

I maintain still, and nobody has shown me wrong, at least not to my satisfaction, that it is still CHOICE if only one of the presented options is actual —the other(s) being illusion, or presumed. Do we not always choose what actually is chosen? Can anyone demonstrate that there is substance to "could have"?

5thKingdom said:
LOL...
that is not found in the Bible
that is a Secular false gospel

You don’t believe the scriptures and cannot believe as a little child.

Non-answer. SHOW how his statement is wrong, instead of insulting him. Demonstrate where it is shown in the Bible.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

BEFORE Jesus Came God was saving ONLY the Jews

Although salvation was "of the Jews", God has always saved anyone who has faith.

Luke 4:25-27 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian."

Other examples are Ruth (a Moabite) and Rahab (a Cannanite).

God never promised to save EVERYONE in the world.
God never promised salvation was available for EVERYMAN.
Because the Bible does never teaches of a Universal Atonement.

God did promise to offer salvation to all.

Joh 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

 

[FutureAndAHope]

ONLY "His Sheep" CAN "believe"...

Who are God's sheep? Those who hear and keep God's word:

Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

John 14:21-23 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

We see especially in John 14:21-23 that God "loves" the one who hears God's word and keeps it. God gives sight to the one who keeps God's word. This is opposite to what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches that man is "so dead" he can not keep God's word. But that idea is out of context, pushed too far. Jesus made it clear who HIs sheep are, "those who keep His Word".

 

[FutureAndAHope]

How does God feel about those who are not elect... He hates them

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"

God always trys to open the ears of the wicked so that they can live. But as we see in Job, it is a choice man makes not God.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

5thKingdom said:
They do not "become elect" by doing a "work"...
They were elected before the foundation of the world.
... according to the "good pleasure of His will"

As Christ was foreordained (pre-planned), so too was salvation. It was pre-planned, predestined, who would be saved. God foreknew, that there would be people who would respond according to what He had elected. A group of people who would respond to His message with faith. We were chosen in Him in the sense that God had made up His mind about who would be saved, those who would respond in faith.

The Early Church Fathers state clearly, that man has free will in regard to salvation. That God's foreknowledge does not negate our free will.

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

....

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

 

[Der Alte]

As Christ was foreordained (pre-planned), so too was salvation. It was pre-planned, predestined, who would be saved. God foreknew, that there would be people who would respond according to what He had elected. A group of people who would respond to His message with faith. We were chosen in Him in the sense that God had made up His mind about who would be saved, those who would respond in faith.

The Early Church Fathers state clearly, that man has free will in regard to salvation. That God's foreknowledge does not negate our free will.

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

....

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

You quoted two ECF, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, they contradict each other and Irenaeus contradicts your first sentence. "As Christ was foreordained (pre-planned), so too was salvation."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Universal Atonement is exactly what happened on the cross.

That does not mean everyone will be saved. But it does mean that Christ died for everyone.

That is precisely what it says in Romans 5:18 and Hebrews 2:9. And that is why we read that God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe" in 1 Timothy 4:10.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You quoted two ECF, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, they contradict each other and Irenaeus contradicts your first sentence. "As Christ was foreordained (pre-planned), so too was salvation."

Read it carefully, I don't see any contradiction. As for Justin Martyr and Irenaeus they do not contradict each other they are in full agreement.

 

[Jipsah]

The Bible is clear. The world consists of 3 peoples
(1) the saved "wheat/sheep" in the Church (sown by God) and destined to eternal life.
(2) the unsaved "tares/goats" in the Church (sown by Satan) and destined to eternal torment.

Dualist much?

(3) all the lost souls OUTSIDE the church, also "children of Satan" destined to Hell.

Well I reckon that accounts for everybody, at least by your "reasoning".

Have you sent this off to a few hundred theologians to show them how you've simplified soteriology for them? I'm sure they'll be greet it with tears of gratitude.

All men are born spiritually DEAD and captive to Satan, they are within Satan's "Kingdom"

Whose idea was that? How did Satan get title deed to people who God created?

God elects some men to save.

But by design they all initially belong to old Nick, right?

He then translates them FROM Satan's Kingdom INTO His Eternal "Kingdom of God"
they are destined to eternal life as PART of "His Sheep"

So everybody starts out as part of Nick's herd. I don't see why would willingly send that creep anyone at all, much less hand him everyone by de

Those men God does NOT elect remain in Satan's Kingdom and are destined to eternal torment

Because that's the default setting. Right.

So how do you know you aren't one of the soon-to-be-screaming majority? Race? National origin? Color of eyes? IQ? Or is it just random?

Rom 9:21-23
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

So which are you, matey? And how do you know? Now I'm betting that you allege to know that, unlike most here, or perhaps even everyone here, you know yourself to be one of those who was culled from Satan's herd, am I right? (Funny how I can figure these things out, innit? Must be Spiritual Discernment, yeah, that's it.)

/

 

[zoidar]

We are all aware of the CONTEXT of the Cross:


BEFORE Jesus Came God was saving ONLY the Jews
AFTER Jesus Came God was saving BOTH Jew and Gentile
------------
Jew and Gentile = "the world"
God promised to save "the world"... Jew and Gentile.


God never promised to save EVERYONE in the world.
God never promised salvation was available for EVERYMAN.
Because the Bible does never teaches of a Universal Atonement.


Mar 4:11-12
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the Kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


(1) Jesus PROMISED some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive"... how could they ever be saved?

(2) Jesus PROMISED some men were NEVER MEANT to "understand"... how can they be saved?

(3) Jesus PROMISED some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"... how are they saved?

(4) Jesus PROMISED some men were NEVER MEANT to have their sins forgiven... WOW!


Who can deny what Jesus PROMISED?
Where is there a Universal Atonement in the Gospel of Christ?
Some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


/

Something for you to think about. 18 minutes on problems with limited atonement (particular redemption).

God bless! ✝️