Never Meant to be saved

[zoidar]

I thought my point was obvious, but you seem to be arguing against something I didn't say.

You had said that they were chosen in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. But that is not what it says, in any version. They were chosen unto salvation —salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. (My paraphrase for emphasis of the point; the choosing was not a result of faith, but salvation was.)

The thing I was showing Brightfame was that it doesn't have to mean from the "beginning" but could just as well mean as "first fruits". That was the main thing I wanted to set straight.

I said they were chosen unto salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. And I said it works for me with another translation like: "they were chosen as first fruits unto salvation, which is in Spirit through faith."

Maybe I understand Chrysostom wrong, but isn't that what he is saying that they were chosen through Spirit and belief unto salvation?

"Ver. 13. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

How unto salvation? By sanctifying you through the Spirit. For these are the things that are the efficient causes of our salvation. It is nowhere of works, nowhere of righteous deeds, but through belief of the truth. Here again, in is used for through. And through sanctification of the Spirit"

 

[Brightfame52]

The thing I was showing Brightfame was that it doesn't have to mean from the "beginning" but could just as well mean as "first fruits". That was the main thing I wanted to set straight.

I said they were chosen unto salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Maybe I understand Chrysostom wrong, but isn't that what he is saying?

"Ver. 13. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

How unto salvation? By sanctifying you through the Spirit. For these are the things that are the efficient causes of our salvation. It is nowhere of works, nowhere of righteous deeds, but through belief of the truth. Here again, in is used for through. And through sanctification of the Spirit"

They were chosen to believe the Truth, which is why the Spirit sanctifies them unto that end.

 

[zoidar]

They were chosen to believe the Truth, which is why the Spirit sanctifies them unto that end.

Why do you think the word for "chose" here is "haireó" instead of "eklegó" as in Eph 1? I don't know why, but it's interesting.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why do you think the word for "chose" here is "haireó" instead of "eklegó" as in Eph 1? I don't know why, but it's interesting.

I dont see any difference definition wise. Its like you can call a car a car or automobile, same thing. Havent you looked up the word haireo ? It means:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

The word eklegomai means:


to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
2. choosing one for an office

 

[zoidar]

I dont see any difference definition wise. Its like you can call a car a car or automobile, same thing. Havent you looked up the word haireo ? It means:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

The word eklegomai means:


to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
2. choosing one for an office

It's just that this is the only place it's used for chosen for salvation. Everywhere else seem to use the word "eklegó".

 

[Brightfame52]

It's just that this is the only place it's used for chosen for salvation. Everywhere else seem to use the word "eklegó".

Doesnt make any difference, didnt you read the definitions ?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, I just meant you seem to have an unatural complicated way to read this text.

46 vs 9 does not say much IMO. But as far as numbers go, 90% of all Christians hold to unlimited atonement.

I thought we were talking about what the verse says. Nevertheless, argument from majority is no argument at all. Have not the majority often been wrong?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The thing I was showing Brightfame was that it doesn't have to mean from the "beginning" but could just as well mean as "first fruits". That was the main thing I wanted to set straight.

I said they were chosen unto salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. And I said it works for me with another translation like: "they were chosen as first fruits unto salvation, which is in Spirit through faith."

Maybe I understand Chrysostom wrong, but isn't that what he is saying that they were chosen through Spirit and belief unto salvation?

"Ver. 13. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

How unto salvation? By sanctifying you through the Spirit. For these are the things that are the efficient causes of our salvation. It is nowhere of works, nowhere of righteous deeds, but through belief of the truth. Here again, in is used for through. And through sanctification of the Spirit"

Good. Then you are backing off from your earlier statement:
zoidar said:
It doesn't say when God chose them (the firstfruits) to be saved, but how He chose them (through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth).

He did not choose them through their belief in the truth. Their salvation is "through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth", to use your words.

 

[zoidar]

Good. Then you are backing off from your earlier statement:
zoidar said:
It doesn't say when God chose them (the firstfruits) to be saved, but how He chose them (through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth).

He did not choose them through their belief in the truth. Their salvation is "through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth", to use your words.

I can't argue for something I'm not sure of.

 

[zoidar]

I thought we were talking about what the verse says. Nevertheless, argument from majority is no argument at all. Have not the majority often been wrong?

Wasn't that what you just did, argumented from majority? Why else did you give the numbers? I agree that it's not a good argument.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Wasn't that what you just did, argumented from majority? That's what I tried to say. I agree that it's not a good argument.

"Argument from authority" is more like it. Granted, it is not like the authority of the Word of God, but it is an argument from many Koine Greek "authorities" —people who know the Greek well.

 

[zoidar]

"Argument from authority" is more like it. Granted, it is not like the authority of the Word of God, but it is an argument from many Koine Greek "authorities" —people who know the Greek well.

Ok, that's fine!

 

[zoidar]

Good. Then you are backing off from your earlier statement:
zoidar said:
It doesn't say when God chose them (the firstfruits) to be saved, but how He chose them (through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth).

He did not choose them through their belief in the truth. Their salvation is "through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth", to use your words.

A thought, how do you know that "salvation" isn't referring to the coming salvation after Christ's return?

 

[Mark Quayle]

A thought, how do you know that "salvation" isn't referring to the coming salvation after Christ's return?

Not sure why you ask.

But in a sense, it is certainly at least that.

 

[zoidar]

Not sure why you ask.

But in a sense, it is certainly at least that.

Then it doesn't fit that we are chosen unto salvation, salvation in the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

I have some questions about your soteriology that you have expressed here. I hope that you will be able to answer them.

How does your soteriology deal with Gentile converts to Judaism before Christ came? Are they unsaved?



I think promise is a strong word here that may not apply. How would you respond to the idea that Jesus wasn't making a promise in Mark 4:11-12 and John 3:16, but was rather describing a reality?

Is it possible to be angry with someone without hating them?

Some but few Gentiles were saved in the OT, like Rahab, Ruth etc but they were saved by the Grace of God and so given faith in Christ like anyone else, judaism was a false system for the most part. But it is true that for the most part during the OT God was saving only a remnant of jews, but for a few exceptions.

 

[Brightfame52]

Limited to those who believe. Those sheep chose to believe and therefore become the elect. Blessings.

Thats false, they were already elect before they believed, thats why they believed because they were Sheep, and its Gods choice on who will believe and who will not believe in Christ.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Thats false, they were already elect before they believed, thats why they believed because they were Sheep, and its Gods choice on who will believe and who will not believe in Christ.

Foreknowledge is not the same as foreordained. Your version, foreordained, is from the teachings of Augustine and made into a theological system by John Calvin. I do not subscribe to their teachings therefore my view is not false it is just the "other" view.
Thanks for sharing!
Blessings.

 

[Brightfame52]

Foreknowledge is not the same as foreordained. Your version, foreordained, is from the teachings of Augustine and made into a theological system by John Calvin. I do not subscribe to their teachings therefore my view is not false it is just the "other" view.
Thanks for sharing!
Blessings.

Again they were Sheep before they believed, and thats why they believe, Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[Brightfame52]

Maria B

Foreknowledge is not the same as foreordained

Actually it is, see God foreknows a thing because He decreed it to have being or existence for His Purpose in the first place.