Never Meant to be saved

[Brightfame52]

Limited to those who believe. Those sheep chose to believe and therefore become the elect. Blessings.

Thats false. They believe because they are Sheep, Jesus made that clear when He said this of them that fail to believe in Him Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And the Sheep who believe were chosen to believe 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

See believing is parcel with Salvation which the elect sheep have been chosen to.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Thats false. They believe because they are Sheep, Jesus made that clear when He said this of them that fail to believe in Him Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And the Sheep who believe were chosen to believe 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

See believing is parcel with Salvation which the elect sheep have been chosen to.

Thank you for sharing. Your view is Calvinism and I am not a Calvinist. The Shepard's flock are the Body of Christ. They have free will like everyone else to choose Him or reject Him. They repent from unbelief to belief and are then regenerated by His Holy Spirit.
Blessings

 

[zoidar]

Thats false. They believe because they are Sheep, Jesus made that clear when He said this of them that fail to believe in Him Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And the Sheep who believe were chosen to believe 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

See believing is parcel with Salvation which the elect sheep have been chosen to.

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
- 2 Thess 2:13 (ESV)

 

[Brightfame52]

Thank you for sharing. Your view is Calvinism and I am not a Calvinist. The Shepard's flock are the Body of Christ. They have free will like everyone else to choose Him or reject Him. They repent from unbelief to belief and are then regenerated by His Holy Spirit.
Blessings

Your contention is with Gods word, not calvin friend.

 

[Brightfame52]

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. /ESV

And your point ?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Something for you to think about. 18 minutes on problems with limited atonement (particular redemption).

God bless!

"5 Problems with Limited Atonement"

#1 Hebrews says those "clearly" losing salvation were "clearly" bought. Also 2 Peter 2 "Clearly" speaking of those who were bought.
—Not so clearly. Could easily be speaking hypothetically. The subjunctive reasoning does not imply possibility, but only propositional logic —in this case for the purpose of motivation.

#2 The many texts speaking of universal love and intention for salvation
—These have been shown repeatedly, that they are easily seen to mean other things that "all" unequivocally.

#3 Texts showing that the Gospel is universally offered to all people
—I'm not sure how this is a problem. The explanations for #2 above apply to some and, besides, Reformed theology admits to "offer", and no, not in a dishonest way. IF one of lost was to accept and not reject the Gospel, they would be saved. But they will to not accept the Gospel.

#4 The book of Hebrews was written to convince Jewish believers not to abandon the faith, returning to Judaism.
—Assumes the book was written for that. Assumes also that it is possible for one who truly believes, to abandon the faith. The fact that the "possibility" is posed does not mean that it can happen, but it does provide a reason to press on. Again, the hypothetical does not prove a possibility.

#5 Words of Jesus concerning Judas and those who were killing him: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
—As far as Judas, Jesus words are again easily hypothetical. "Those you have given me" does not refer to election in this reference, but to the twelve. As far as Jesus' prayer on the cross, we have no information as to whether those he was referring to did or did not eventually believe, nor do we know that he was imploring on their behalf so much as merely expressing his earthly feeling concerning them, or even his divine compassion.

In other words, I find nothing compelling in any of these arguments. Frankly, as in all the arguments I have heard against Limited Atonement, on closer inspection and exegesis, the passages turn out to be strong indicators for LA and the arguments either bogus, incomplete, or, as I am seeing more and more obviously to me, the ingrained need to accommodate self-determinism in one's reasoning.

 

[zoidar]

And your point ?

It doesn't say when God chose them (the firstfruits) to be saved, but how He chose them (through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth).

 

[zoidar]

"5 Problems with Limited Atonement"

#1 Hebrews says those "clearly" losing salvation were "clearly" bought. Also 2 Peter 2 "Clearly" speaking of those who were bought.
—Not so clearly. Could easily be speaking hypothetically. The subjunctive reasoning does not imply possibility, but only propositional logic —in this case for the purpose of motivation.

Is this the most natural, straight forward way to understand this?

#2 The many texts speaking of universal love and intention for salvation
—These have been shown repeatedly, that they are easily seen to mean other things that "all" unequivocally.

#3 Texts showing that the Gospel is universally offered to all people
—I'm not sure how this is a problem. The explanations for #2 above apply to some and, besides, Reformed theology admits to "offer", and no, not in a dishonest way. IF one of lost was to accept and not reject the Gospel, they would be saved. But they will to not accept the Gospel.

So if Jake who's sin Jesus wasn't punished for would say "yes" he would be saved still? If not it's a dishonest offer. It has nothing to do with knowing what the answer will be or if there is a possibility or not for him to say "yes". It's like I would hold out a book to you and ask you if you want a book about your life. And since I know you will say "no" the book doesn't need to contain the story of your life. But then the question is a dishonest question, since I am falsly leading you to the impression I'm offering something to you, I in reality don't do.

#4 The book of Hebrews was written to convince Jewish believers not to abandon the faith, returning to Judaism.
—Assumes the book was written for that. Assumes also that it is possible for one who truly believes, to abandon the faith. The fact that the "possibility" is posed does not mean that it can happen, but it does provide a reason to press on. Again, the hypothetical does not prove a possibility.

#4
I don't think it's fair to say Jordan Cooper assumes Hebrews was written for this reason. I'm quite sure he has got a lot more on his feet than just assuming, even if it will turn out in the end he is wrong.

#5 Words of Jesus concerning Judas and those who were killing him: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
—As far as Judas, Jesus words are again easily hypothetical. "Those you have given me" does not refer to election in this reference, but to the twelve. As far as Jesus' prayer on the cross, we have no information as to whether those he was referring to did or did not eventually believe, nor do we know that he was imploring on their behalf so much as merely expressing his earthly feeling concerning them, or even his divine compassion.

In other words, I find nothing compelling in any of these arguments. Frankly, as in all the arguments I have heard against Limited Atonement, on closer inspection and exegesis, the passages turn out to be strong indicators for LA and the arguments either bogus, incomplete, or, as I am seeing more and more obviously to me, the ingrained need to accommodate self-determinism in one's reasoning.

I think his arguments make sense or I wouldn't have posted it.

 

[Brightfame52]

It doesn't say when God chose them (the firstfruits) to be saved, but how He chose them (through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth).

It says from the beginning 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Salvation here consisteth in Sanctification of the Spirit and Belief of the Truth, which word belief here is the same greek noun for faith.

So the fact they were beloved or Loved by God and chosen unto Salvation, it results in belief of the Truth or Faith.

Thats a benefit of Election and Christ dying for you.

 

[zoidar]

It says from the beginning 2 Thess 2:13

Depends on which translation you use. But the question is really what Paul means, not the literal words.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Salvation here consisteth in Sanctification of the Spirit and Belief of the Truth, which word belief here is the same greek noun for faith.

So the fact they were beloved or Loved by God and chosen unto Salvation, it results in belief of the Truth or Faith.

Thats a benefit of Election and Christ dying for you.

 

[Brightfame52]

Depends on which translation you use. But the question is really what Paul means, not the literal words.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - Stand Firm

But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.

biblehub.com

I use the kjv. But either way, its from the beginning. It syncs with Pauls other writings Eph 1:4-13 Chosen in Christ before the foundation and culminating with belief of the Truth in Eph 1:13

All Gods elect shall believe in Christ because thats a benefit of Christ having died for one.

 

[zoidar]

I use the kjv. But either way, its from the beginning. It syncs with Pauls other writings Eph 1:4-13 Chosen in Christ before the foundation and culminating with belief of the Truth in Eph 1:13

All Gods elect shall believe in Christ because thats a benefit of Christ having died for one.

You are free to believe that. But that is in oppositon to the Early Church teachings.

 

[Brightfame52]

You are free to believe that. But that is in oppositon to the Early Church teachings.

We will see at the Judgment who is right friend !

 

[zoidar]

We will see at the Judgment who is right friend !

Such matters will have no importance at the day of Judgement.

 

[Brightfame52]

Such matters will have no importance at the day of Judgement.

We will see !

 

[Mark Quayle]

It doesn't say when God chose them (the firstfruits) to be saved, but how He chose them (through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth).

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

You might want to check the Greek there, before going so far as to say that he chose them "through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth". Do you have some reason to believe it is not saying that he SAVED them in the Holy Spirit and by faith in the truth?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is this the most natural, straight forward way to understand this?

#4
I don't think it's fair to say Jordan Cooper assumes Hebrews was written for this reason. I'm quite sure he has got a lot more on his feet than just assuming, even if it will turn out in the end he is wrong.

I think his arguments make sense or I wouldn't have posted it.

I'm saying his arguments don't present me with a problem.

BTW, "the most natural straight forward way to understand this" isn't always the right way.

I just finished posting an alternate to your take, of the ESV translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 out of the Greek. Where the Greek pretty obviously (and by the way, in full accordance to other passages such Ephesians 2), says that we are saved in the Holy Spirit and by faith in the truth, you quoted the ESV which puts the comma ambiguously where you can decide, if you like, to suggest "God chose us by our belief in the truth.", (which you more-than-suggested in a subsequent post). Out of 46 versions I looked at, only 9 of them put a comma where the ESV does, (and the Greek puts no comma there at all), and about half of those put other commas that put your take into question, AND, like I said, the comma where the ESV puts it doesn't even indicate what you took the passage to say —it only allows for it.

"...because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved(comma) through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." instead of "...because God chose you as the firstfruits(comma here, if there must be a comma) to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

So which is the most "natural, straightforward" to read 2 Thessalonians 2:13?

But if you want that door to swing both ways, you got to take Romans 9's many statements the same way, not to mention many more passages. The most natural straightforward way to read "predestinate" is 'predestinate'. The most straightforward way to read, "All things were made by him" is, 'all things were made by him'. The most straightforward way to read, "DEAD in sins" is 'dead in sins'. The most straightforward way to read, "helpless", is 'helpless'. None of this, "almost—", or, "sort of—", stuff.

 

[zoidar]

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

You might want to check the Greek there, before going so far as to say that he chose them "through the Holy Spirit and through their belief in the truth". Do you have some reason to believe it is not saying that he SAVED them in the Holy Spirit and by faith in the truth?

Both translations work for me. But I will say I believe more in the Greek skill of the translators than me looking and trying to figure things out from lexicons. There must be a reason they chose the word "through".

One reason it think it's about "how he chose them to salvation" is because of Chrysostom.

"Ver. 13. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

How unto salvation? By sanctifying you through the Spirit. For these are the things that are the efficient causes of our salvation. It is nowhere of works, nowhere of righteous deeds, but through belief of the truth. Here again, in is used for through. And through sanctification of the Spirit"

 

[Mark Quayle]

Both translations work for me. But I will say I believe more in the Greek skill of the translators than me looking and trying to figure things out from lexicons. There must be a reason they chose the word "through".

One reason it think it's about "how he chose them to salvation" is because of Chrysostom.

"Ver. 13. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

How unto salvation? By sanctifying you through the Spirit. For these are the things that are the efficient causes of our salvation. It is nowhere of works, nowhere of righteous deeds, but through belief of the truth. Here again, in is used for through. And through sanctification of the Spirit"

I thought my point was obvious, but you seem to be arguing against something I didn't say.

You had said that they were chosen in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. But that is not what it says, in any version. They were chosen unto salvation —salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. (My paraphrase for emphasis of the point; the choosing was not a result of faith, but salvation was.)

 

[zoidar]

I'm saying his arguments don't present me with a problem.

BTW, "the most natural straight forward way to understand this" isn't always the right way.

No, I just meant you seem to have an unatural complicated way to read this text.

I just finished posting an alternate to your take, of the ESV translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 out of the Greek. Where the Greek pretty obviously (and by the way, in full accordance to other passages such Ephesians 2), says that we are saved in the Holy Spirit and by faith in the truth, you quoted the ESV which puts the comma ambiguously where you can decide, if you like, to suggest "God chose us by our belief in the truth.", (which you more-than-suggested in a subsequent post). Out of 46 versions I looked at, only 9 of them put a comma where the ESV does, (and the Greek puts no comma there at all), and about half of those put other commas that put your take into question, AND, like I said, the comma where the ESV puts it doesn't even indicate what you took the passage to say —it only allows for it.

46 vs 9 does not say much IMO. But as far as numbers go, 90% of all Christians hold to unlimited atonement.

"...because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved(comma) through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." instead of "...because God chose you as the firstfruits(comma here, if there must be a comma) to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

So which is the most "natural, straightforward" to read 2 Thessalonians 2:13?

But if you want that door to swing both ways, you got to take Romans 9's many statements the same way, not to mention many more passages. The most natural straightforward way to read "predestinate" is 'predestinate'. The most straightforward way to read, "All things were made by him" is, 'all things were made by him'. The most straightforward way to read, "DEAD in sins" is 'dead in sins'. The most straightforward way to read, "helpless", is 'helpless'. None of this, "almost—", or, "sort of—", stuff.