• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured [moved] The Rapture vs The Second Coming

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by MWood, May 5, 2017.

  1. MWood

    MWood Newbie

    +7,965
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    There are similarities between the Rapture and the Second Coming, and this has caused many to mistakenly think they are the same. We see similarities in that, with both speak of glory, a gathering, a trumpet, angels, and clouds. Although there are similarities, there many differences as well. The differences demonstrate that these two future comings should never be joined into one event. The comparisons that follow demonstrate this conclusion.

    The Rapture takes place before the Tribulation period.
    1Thes.1:10
    The Second Coming takes place 'after the Tribulation.
    Matt.24:29

    The Rapture of the Church is a message of grace, joy, and peace.
    1Thes.1:1,10; 2Tim.4:8; Titus 2:13
    The Second Coming is about judgement, vengeance, and wrath.
    Psa.50:3; Joel 3:9-16; Rev.19:11-21

    For the Rapture, the Body of Christ is told to look for Christ, not signs.
    Phil.3:20,21
    Israel is told to look for signs of Christ's Second Coming.
    Matt.24:3,15,33; Luke 21:28

    Believers have "comfort" and "rest" at the Rapture.
    1Thes 4:18; 5:11; 2Thes. 1:7; 2:16,17
    The earth will "mourn" at the Second Coming and there will be great fear.
    Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7

    The Rapture results in LIFE. Members of the Body of Christ are raised from the dead at the Rapture.
    1Cor.15:52; 1Thes.4:16
    The Second Coming results in DEATH. Carcasses from Armageddon cover the ground.
    Psa.110:5,6; Zech.14:12; Matt.24:28; Rev.19:17,18

    The Rapture marks the end of the Dispensation of Grace.
    Rom.11:25; 1Cor.15:51,52
    The Second Coming marks the "end of the world," the end of the Tribulation.
    Matt.14:3

    Those trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection have hope of the Rapture.
    1Thes.1:14
    Those who believe Jesus is Israel's Messiah and endure to the end will be saved by the Second Coming.
    Matt.10:22; 24:14; John 20;31

    Our burden in light of the Rapture is to teach others for Christ so they are not left behind to go into the Tribulation
    1Thes 5:4-8
    The burden of Israel in light of the Second Coming will be for God's vengeance to be poured out on their enemies.
    Psa. 5; 58; 59; 79
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 5
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. MWood

    MWood Newbie

    +7,965
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    One more thing.
    The Rapture was never revealed in the past and is only found in the Apostle Paul's letters, Romans through Philemon.
    1Cor. 15:51
    The Second Coming is predicted in the Old Testament, the Gospels, and the Hebrew epistles.
    Isa, 64:1,2; 66:15-18; Mark 13:24-26; Jude 14,15.

    Brian Bill
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  3. Tangible

    Tangible Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

    +1,246
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    It's pretty clear, even in what you have posted, that what the Scriptures are speaking of is one event observed from two different perspectives.

    Tax season is a wonderful time for those who receive refunds. Quite often they get back even more than they actually paid in. Merry Taxmas!

    For many others, though, it is seen as painful time when large checks must be written and sent in to the government to pay for inefficient programs and bloated bureaucracy which they experience very little benefit from.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,201
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    That's not the rapture.

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    This is the second coming!


    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

    So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

    1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
    2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
    3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
    This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


    So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  5. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    I am lost - how can the 19th century invention of John Darby the rapture have anything to do with Traditional Theology. Is there any chance of having our forum topic moved further down in the list of Theology topics so these posts don't end up in here because we are at the top of list?
     
  6. MWood

    MWood Newbie

    +7,965
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Making arrangements now. Thanks.
     
  7. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,201
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    The rapture is traditional theology. Even the pre-trib rapture is considered traditional by a great many. Either way, Darby did not invent anything. Pre-trib was taught and known long before Darby.
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,201
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Op has asked for this to be moved.

    thread moved.png
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,914
    Christian
    Married
    If you are talking about a pretrib removal of the Church, absolutely not.

    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    In Hebrews 8:13 the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

    In Hebrews 13:20 the New Covenant is "everlasting".

    Therefore, God is not going back to the Old Covenant during a future time period.

    This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

    .
     
  10. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    Definitely not Traditional in the flavour of Christianity that I was formed in.
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,201
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    What did they teach about this verse?

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture.
     
  12. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    +113
    Christian
    Married
    The 'harpazo' means 'plunder' as in what a thief does (which is why he comes as a thief), not as being magically whisked away. See. Matthew 12:29, the 'plunder' there is 'harpazo' and will occur after the 'strong man' is bound. (fall of Babylon)
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,201
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican

    Plunder isn't the best definition:

    G726
    ἁρπάζω
    harpazō
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to seize, carry off by force
    2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
    3) to snatch out or away
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G138
    Citing in TDNT: 1:472, 80


    Other use of this word:

    2Co_12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    2Co_12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    Each use is a lifting up type of movement, not a "plundering".
     
  14. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    I am not going to argue with you only to say the rapture as is not a doctrine that was traditional in the Church (Church of England/Anglican Church of Australia) I was brought up in. The word 'rapture' does not appear in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer or the modern Prayer Book for Australia nor does it appear in the 39 Articles of Religion. I also checked the catechism book I was given as child in the early 1960's and it doesn't appear in there either.
     
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,201
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican

    That seems a bit evasive.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Are you denyng that Paul used the Greek word for rapture in this verse?
     
  16. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    I am not being evasive the word rapture has never been used in the Anglican Church that I am aware of in my 65 years of Christianity. I would consider the Anglican Church of Australia teaches traditional Christian theology. Is that clear enough?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,201
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican

    Yes and I apologize if the evasive comment was offensive, didn't mean it that way. I find this info very interesting so thank you for telling me about this.
     
  18. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +15,537
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    For what it's worth - and I offer this as a point of information, not to argue ...

    But the question about the word used is kind of like quoting the verse "For I know the plans I have ... to prosper you ..." and seeing that the word "prosperity" is related, and concluding that "prosperity doctrine" was always taught as such.

    I don't mean that to be insulting. Only to say that word derivation doesn't prove interpretation.

    The Orthodox Church has never taught rapture as part of theology either. We believe that He (Christ) will come again in glory, to judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom shall have no end. That is the most traditional codified belief.

    As far as I know, the Catholic Church also rejects rapture theology, or at least never held it through the many early centuries. I don't think Lutherans accept it either. So added to the lack of that theology in the Anglican Church ... if one wants to consider it a "traditional" doctrine, then one has to define "traditional" a certain way.

    Any "catching up" or "being changed in the twinkling of an eye" or similar passages are regarded by the Orthodox Church as being associated with the Second Coming. We have always held only two comings - the first being Incarnate in human flesh and the second to reign and rule forever.

    But since the thread has been moved, I think that is most appropriate. This forum (Eschatology and End Times) is set up specifically for these topics, so it would not be off topic or need to be proven to be traditional to be here. As I said, I offered just for the sake of information, not to argue or in any way stifle discussion.

    Peace to all. :)
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,914
    Christian
    Married
    This thread starts out by equating the word "wrath" with the word "tribulation".
    The problem is that the Greek words for these two English words are not the same.


    1Th 1:10  and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (Greek- orge)


    Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
    (Greek- thlipsis)


    For the first 1800 years of the history of the Church it was understood that the resurrection event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 would occur at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming. The timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
    This can be confirmed by thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons from the time of the American Revolutionary War. Based on those historical documents, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at that time.


    Many today have no idea why modern Dispensational Theology needs a pretrib removal of the Church to make its doctrine work.
    Based on the older "classic" version of the doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War, God will end the "Church Age" and then go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system.


    The following scripture must be ignored to make the doctrine work.

    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    Based on Hebrews 8:13, the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".
    We find in Hebrews 13:20 that the New Covenant is "everlasting".
    Therefore, the claim that God will end the New Covenant Church and then go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system is found to be in error.


    On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". Peter was addressing the crowd as Israelites. On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. No one can ignore the fact that when the Church began it was made up almost entirely of Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later. The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church", as some today claim.

    In Matthew 26:28 we find Christ revealing that He would fulfill this New Covenant "with many" in His Blood.

    The greatest error of Dispensational Theology is the claim that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. This claim hangs on changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. This change is found in the Jesuit book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. (See the YouTube video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", for confirmation.)

    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology is seen for what it really is.

    Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 


    The history of the modern pretrib doctrine and modern Dispensational Theology is found below, for anyone who really wants to know how and when the doctrine started.

    Genesis of Dispensational Theology
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ


    PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
    with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
    F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
    http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


    Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
    PDF Files


    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


    Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis



    Left Behind or Led Astray?
    Good Fight Ministries
    http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/


    Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt0L2B0JjDM

    .
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  20. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    +113
    Christian
    Married
    1 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.

    2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven [the magical 'harpazo']whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise ['harpazo']whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

    4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.​

    You posted these verses yourself! You want to insist that people are magically whisked away, when Paul says twice he doesn't know if the person is having an ecstatic vision or being magically whisked away - regardless, in this instance, the point Paul is making is not that the person has magically whisked away, but that the person is having a vision/ revelation of the Lord.

    So, what makes more sense? People are 'magically whisked away'/ beamed aboard God's Death Star New Jerusalem and then fly back down in Jesus' Millenium Falcon (wacka wacka) to rule in the millenium with the rod of iron/ light saber, OR

    they have an ecstatic vision of the Lord, stay on earth and are gathered by the angels & others who have refused to take the mark of the beast, and then rule in the Millenium after God has disposed of the idol worshipers. The gathering of the wheat after the fall of Babylon is Jesus' 'plundering' the strong man.

    ... why do people complicate this?

    (the tares also are gathered and will also have a 'harpazo'/ vision of the Lord - that is what the 'pharmakia' (means drugs for sorcery) (translated generally as just 'sorcery') is in Revelation 18:23. the pharmakia facilitates people's misunderstanding of God as an alien - see nonsense above.)

    Edit to add:
    Matt 25
    Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.

    5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.

    8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.​

    Why was the 'bridegroom delayed'? In what manner was the bridegroom delayed?

    For people that believe in a whisked away rapture, they would have a hard time explaining this. But if one just sees that people have a 'vision of the Lord', then it makes a lot more sense: people have a vision of the Lord, He is delayed, then He comes.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
Loading...