[moved] The Rapture vs The Second Coming

[MWood]

You might have a look at John 14:2-3 and 28.


Quasar92

This is Jesus telling His Disciples what is in store for them. Not a part of the Rapture. He didn't reveal the Rapture or the Gospel of the Grace God to anyone but Paul.

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture/first resurrection (a simulatanoeous event according to Jesus and Paul)

They are not simultaneous as it is written the "dead in Christ rise first". That means the resurrection happens before the rapture albeit maybe only by seconds.

 

[disciple1]

There are similarities between the Rapture and the Second Coming, and this has caused many to mistakenly think they are the same. We see similarities in that, with both speak of glory, a gathering, a trumpet, angels, and clouds. Although there are similarities, there many differences as well. The differences demonstrate that these two future comings should never be joined into one event. The comparisons that follow demonstrate this conclusion.

The Rapture takes place before the Tribulation period.
1Thes.1:10
The Second Coming takes place 'after the Tribulation.
Matt.24:29

The Rapture of the Church is a message of grace, joy, and peace.
1Thes.1:1,10; 2Tim.4:8; Titus 2:13
The Second Coming is about judgement, vengeance, and wrath.
Psa.50:3; Joel 3:9-16; Rev.19:11-21

For the Rapture, the Body of Christ is told to look for Christ, not signs.
Phil.3:20,21
Israel is told to look for signs of Christ's Second Coming.
Matt.24:3,15,33; Luke 21:28

Believers have "comfort" and "rest" at the Rapture.
1Thes 4:18; 5:11; 2Thes. 1:7; 2:16,17
The earth will "mourn" at the Second Coming and there will be great fear.
Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7

The Rapture results in LIFE. Members of the Body of Christ are raised from the dead at the Rapture.
1Cor.15:52; 1Thes.4:16
The Second Coming results in DEATH. Carcasses from Armageddon cover the ground.
Psa.110:5,6; Zech.14:12; Matt.24:28; Rev.19:17,18

The Rapture marks the end of the Dispensation of Grace.
Rom.11:25; 1Cor.15:51,52
The Second Coming marks the "end of the world," the end of the Tribulation.
Matt.14:3

Those trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection have hope of the Rapture.
1Thes.1:14
Those who believe Jesus is Israel's Messiah and endure to the end will be saved by the Second Coming.
Matt.10:22; 24:14; John 20;31

Our burden in light of the Rapture is to teach others for Christ so they are not left behind to go into the Tribulation
1Thes 5:4-8
The burden of Israel in light of the Second Coming will be for God's vengeance to be poured out on their enemies.
Psa. 5; 58; 59; 79

My NIV bible doesn't mention rapture, so could you tell me where in the bible it says rapture, so I can read it.

Carcasses from Armageddon

In the bible Armageddon is a place and it's only mentioned once in the bible.
Revelation chapter 16 verse 16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

[precepts]

There are similarities between the Rapture and the Second Coming, and this has caused many to mistakenly think they are the same. We see similarities in that, with both speak of glory, a gathering, a trumpet, angels, and clouds. Although there are similarities, there many differences as well. The differences demonstrate that these two future comings should never be joined into one event. The comparisons that follow demonstrate this conclusion.

The Rapture takes place before the Tribulation period.
1Thes.1:10
The Second Coming takes place 'after the Tribulation.
Matt.24:29

The Rapture of the Church is a message of grace, joy, and peace.
1Thes.1:1,10; 2Tim.4:8; Titus 2:13
The Second Coming is about judgement, vengeance, and wrath.
Psa.50:3; Joel 3:9-16; Rev.19:11-21

For the Rapture, the Body of Christ is told to look for Christ, not signs.
Phil.3:20,21
Israel is told to look for signs of Christ's Second Coming.
Matt.24:3,15,33; Luke 21:28

Believers have "comfort" and "rest" at the Rapture.
1Thes 4:18; 5:11; 2Thes. 1:7; 2:16,17
The earth will "mourn" at the Second Coming and there will be great fear.
Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7

The Rapture results in LIFE. Members of the Body of Christ are raised from the dead at the Rapture.
1Cor.15:52; 1Thes.4:16
The Second Coming results in DEATH. Carcasses from Armageddon cover the ground.
Psa.110:5,6; Zech.14:12; Matt.24:28; Rev.19:17,18

The Rapture marks the end of the Dispensation of Grace.
Rom.11:25; 1Cor.15:51,52
The Second Coming marks the "end of the world," the end of the Tribulation.
Matt.14:3

Those trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection have hope of the Rapture.
1Thes.1:14
Those who believe Jesus is Israel's Messiah and endure to the end will be saved by the Second Coming.
Matt.10:22; 24:14; John 20;31

Our burden in light of the Rapture is to teach others for Christ so they are not left behind to go into the Tribulation
1Thes 5:4-8
The burden of Israel in light of the Second Coming will be for God's vengeance to be poured out on their enemies.
Psa. 5; 58; 59; 79

How do you explain 2 Peter chapter 3?

 

[The Times]

There are similarities between the Rapture and the Second Coming, and this has caused many to mistakenly think they are the same. We see similarities in that, with both speak of glory, a gathering, a trumpet, angels, and clouds. Although there are similarities, there many differences as well. The differences demonstrate that these two future comings should never be joined into one event. The comparisons that follow demonstrate this conclusion.

The Rapture takes place before the Tribulation period.
1Thes.1:10
The Second Coming takes place 'after the Tribulation.
Matt.24:29

The Rapture of the Church is a message of grace, joy, and peace.
1Thes.1:1,10; 2Tim.4:8; Titus 2:13
The Second Coming is about judgement, vengeance, and wrath.
Psa.50:3; Joel 3:9-16; Rev.19:11-21

For the Rapture, the Body of Christ is told to look for Christ, not signs.
Phil.3:20,21
Israel is told to look for signs of Christ's Second Coming.
Matt.24:3,15,33; Luke 21:28

Believers have "comfort" and "rest" at the Rapture.
1Thes 4:18; 5:11; 2Thes. 1:7; 2:16,17
The earth will "mourn" at the Second Coming and there will be great fear.
Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7

The Rapture results in LIFE. Members of the Body of Christ are raised from the dead at the Rapture.
1Cor.15:52; 1Thes.4:16
The Second Coming results in DEATH. Carcasses from Armageddon cover the ground.
Psa.110:5,6; Zech.14:12; Matt.24:28; Rev.19:17,18

The Rapture marks the end of the Dispensation of Grace.
Rom.11:25; 1Cor.15:51,52
The Second Coming marks the "end of the world," the end of the Tribulation.
Matt.14:3

Those trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection have hope of the Rapture.
1Thes.1:14
Those who believe Jesus is Israel's Messiah and endure to the end will be saved by the Second Coming.
Matt.10:22; 24:14; John 20;31

Our burden in light of the Rapture is to teach others for Christ so they are not left behind to go into the Tribulation
1Thes 5:4-8
The burden of Israel in light of the Second Coming will be for God's vengeance to be poured out on their enemies.
Psa. 5; 58; 59; 79

How about rapture taking place after Tribulation and just before the wrath of God is poured.

I define rapture as a mass martyredom of the Church. Jesus certainly linked it to being taken away. Taken away is when the earthly body dies.

 

[ewq1938]

My NIV bible doesn't mention rapture, so could you tell me where in the bible it says rapture, so I can read it.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture.

 

[keras]

God is faithful, He is merciful and His plans are perfect, and one day both Jew and Gentile will worship the Lord Jesus Christ as one body.

They do now.
There are many thousands of Messianic Jews and many millions of Christian Gentiles. One true ekkelaisa, made up of every individual born again believer, from every race, nation and language.
Every other person who rejects Jesus, an atheist, a false religion worshipper, or just a godless individual, be they Jew or Gentile, are destined for destruction.

There is no unjustifiable redemption for the ethnic people who rejected Jesus, as the 'rapture to heaven' proponents would like to have it, their opportunity is now; the same as everyone.

 

[Quasar92]

I am not and never have been a proponent of Reformed Covenant Theology, which is what is being described in this article you have posted.


There are clearly two different covenants found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

There is the Sinai Covenant put in place at Mount Sinai. (Exodus 34:28.)

There is the New Covenant which Christ spoke of at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:28), which was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and was fulfilled at Calvary.


Reformed Covenant Theology makes the mistake of claiming that the covenant was given to Adam in the Garden and that the New Covenant is merely a "New Administration" of the Old Covenant.
This is why they insist on attempting to keep the 4th commandment.

On the other hand, modern Dispensational Theology attempts to ignore the New Covenant to make its "Two Peoples of God" doctrine work.

The book "Abraham's Four Seeds", by Pastor John G. Reisinger reveals the problems with both of these manmade systems of interpretation.


The New Covenant: Bob George

Overview of Covenants: Abraham to Christ, by David H.J. Gay

.

1. Israel is not the one bocy of Christ, His Church.

2. The one body of Christ, His Church, is not Israel.

3. Israel has not yet accepted Jesus as their Messiah.

4. The one body of Christ, His Church, consists of everyone who has believed/received Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior.

There are NO options to the above two separate entities! When Jesus establishes His Millennial Kingdom, according to Mt.6:10; Acts 1:6 and Rev.20:6, the above two entities will become one, beginning at the second coming of Christ in Zech,12:10 and 14:4-5.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

There are NO options to the above two separate entities!

Joh 10:16　 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.　



Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
(present tense during the first century)

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　(copied from Jeremiah chapter 31) (Note the words "New Covenant" and "Israel".)

Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　

Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　
(present tense during the first century)


Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Who did Peter think he was talking to on the Day of Pentecost?

.　

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

That's not the rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.

This thread starts out by equating the word "wrath" with the word "tribulation".
The problem is that the Greek words for these two English words are not the same.

1Th 1:10　 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.　(Greek- orge)


Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
(Greek- thlipsis)


For the first 1800 years of the history of the Church it was understood that the resurrection event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 would occur at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming. The timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
This can be confirmed by thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons from the time of the American Revolutionary War. Based on those historical documents, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at that time.

Many today have no idea why modern Dispensational Theology needs a pretrib removal of the Church to make its doctrine work.
Based on the older "classic" version of the doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War, God will end the "Church Age" and then go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system.

The following scripture must be ignored to make the doctrine work.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Based on Hebrews 8:13, the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".
We find in Hebrews 13:20 that the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore, the claim that God will end the New Covenant Church and then go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system is found to be in error.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". Peter was addressing the crowd as Israelites. On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. No one can ignore the fact that when the Church began it was made up almost entirely of Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later. The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church", as some today claim.

In Matthew 26:28 we find Christ revealing that He would fulfill this New Covenant "with many" in His Blood.

The greatest error of Dispensational Theology is the claim that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. This claim hangs on changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. This change is found in the Jesuit book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. (See the YouTube video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", for confirmation.)

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology is seen for what it really is.

Joh 10:16　 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.　


The history of the modern pretrib doctrine and modern Dispensational Theology is found below, for anyone who really wants to know how and when the doctrine started.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt0L2B0JjDM

.

Hi I can easily defend the teaching that the church and Israel are not the same and that the kingdom of God is tow things as Jesus said He was the kingdom of God but the prophecy of the old and new testament both agree that Jesus will sit on throne of David and keep the covenants made with the fathers. In Luke 1 the angel Gabriel says this of Jesus And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Later in the same chapter Zacharias mouth is opened and he speaks of Jesus
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

A dispensationlalist or as your man in the video called literalist would note that Israel will indeed be delivered from their enemies at the 2nd coming and form that point on worship and serve without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives. The kingdom of God on earth is well prophesied as Dan 2 speaks of the stone cut without hands descending and crushing the image of mans kingdoms and grinding them to powder and this stone becomes a great mountain and is a kingdom that covers the earth and will have no end.

In Rev we see the angels proclaim this in Ch 11 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Has this proclamation already gone out or is it future? My Bible says that Satan in bound for 1000 years and those who were beheaded are among those who live and reign with Jesus during this period. Then Satan is to be loosed for one more temptation of the nations. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world at a time if Jesus would bow to him. Satan said they were his and he could give them to whom he wished. The antichrist will take this offer and will get the one world government. If you read Zechariah 14 you can see the 2nd coming of Jesus and where the LORD is declared king over all the earth. Israel is delivered from her enemies and in that day they declare the LORD is one. They are now brought under the new covenant and saved. The nations must now keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This shows that after the 2nd coming there is a reign on earth from Jerusalem. The Mount of Olives has never split in two and the new river that will flow has yet to come. These all fit together and work without manipulating the text just by believing it.

 

[BABerean2]

Hi I can easily defend the teaching that the church and Israel are not the same

Which Israel are you referring to?

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　


Rom 9:8　 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.　



Joh 10:16　 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
　


Who did Peter think he was talking to on the Day of Pentecost?

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　(This text is copied from Jeremiah 31.)

Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　


If you think you can keep the New Covenant Church separated from Israel, either Christ, and Peter, and the author of Hebrews are confused, or you are confused.

.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There are similarities between the Rapture and the Second Coming, and this has caused many to mistakenly think they are the same. We see similarities in that, with both speak of glory, a gathering, a trumpet, angels, and clouds. Although there are similarities, there many differences as well. The differences demonstrate that these two future comings should never be joined into one event. The comparisons that follow demonstrate this conclusion.

The Rapture takes place before the Tribulation period.
1Thes.1:10
The Second Coming takes place 'after the Tribulation.
Matt.24:29

The Rapture of the Church is a message of grace, joy, and peace.
1Thes.1:1,10; 2Tim.4:8; Titus 2:13
The Second Coming is about judgement, vengeance, and wrath.
Psa.50:3; Joel 3:9-16; Rev.19:11-21

For the Rapture, the Body of Christ is told to look for Christ, not signs.
Phil.3:20,21
Israel is told to look for signs of Christ's Second Coming.
Matt.24:3,15,33; Luke 21:28

Believers have "comfort" and "rest" at the Rapture.
1Thes 4:18; 5:11; 2Thes. 1:7; 2:16,17
The earth will "mourn" at the Second Coming and there will be great fear.
Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7

The Rapture results in LIFE. Members of the Body of Christ are raised from the dead at the Rapture.
1Cor.15:52; 1Thes.4:16
The Second Coming results in DEATH. Carcasses from Armageddon cover the ground.
Psa.110:5,6; Zech.14:12; Matt.24:28; Rev.19:17,18

The Rapture marks the end of the Dispensation of Grace.
Rom.11:25; 1Cor.15:51,52
The Second Coming marks the "end of the world," the end of the Tribulation.
Matt.14:3

Those trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection have hope of the Rapture.
1Thes.1:14
Those who believe Jesus is Israel's Messiah and endure to the end will be saved by the Second Coming.
Matt.10:22; 24:14; John 20;31

Our burden in light of the Rapture is to teach others for Christ so they are not left behind to go into the Tribulation
1Thes 5:4-8
The burden of Israel in light of the Second Coming will be for God's vengeance to be poured out on their enemies.
Psa. 5; 58; 59; 79

Your error is "The Rapture marks the end of the Dispensation of Grace."

Revelation 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Revelation 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!”

Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!”

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Revelation 22:6 [ Jesus Is Coming ] And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

Revelation 22:9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

If there is no Grace, why bother sending prophets since they already know that they are in trouble.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Which Israel are you referring to?

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　


Rom 9:8　 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.　



Joh 10:16　 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
　


Who did Peter think he was talking to on the Day of Pentecost?

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　(This text is copied from Jeremiah 31.)

Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　


If you think you can keep the New Covenant Church separated from Israel, either Christ, and Peter, and the author of Hebrews are confused, or you are confused.

.

hi I agree with you about the new covenant and the church and as Paul said partial blindness has come to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. The New covenant is for the removal of sins and there is no longer a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. But the covenant with the fathers has nothing to do with the covenant with Abraham and David which includes the kingdom of God from Jerusalem. You quoted Jeremiah 31 and if you keep reading that chapter ends with these verses
3 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”


Israel is born again at the 2nd coming. God says he will write His laws in their minds and hearts. He links this to Israel not being cast off as a nation and uses the sun and moon as examples of how secure their national identity is. He then makes a specific prophecy about the borders of Israel at a time when the valley is full of dead bodies and from then on the gates will be thrown down no more forever. This is exactly what we see when Armageddon is completed. Zacharias in Luke one said Israel would be delivered from their enemies by the child Jesus and would then worship and serve the Lord in security and in holiness and righteousness all the days of their lives. This indicates a moral change in the hearts of Israel too. In Zechariah 14 we see the 2nd coming of Jesus and the same dead bodies and the very deliverance promised. We see Israel say the LORD Jehova Is one. They are seeing Jesus standing on the Mt Of Olives and it splits and they see a new river begin to flow. It was daylight in the evening and the enemies of God are melted with heat described graphically. It is this day that the Lord is king over all the earth. The Lord has come with his saints both old and new testament saints.
It is here Isaiah 9 predicted
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The onset of the time Satan is bound for 1000 years and the kingdom age on earth is begun. So many prophecies of the millennium but here is one that shows the national identity of Israel is still in tact. isaiah 19 24 In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.” This prophecy has never come true. There is a prophetic destiny for Israel to one day be brought under the new covenant. The 7 year tribulation Jesus warned that he came in his fathers name and was rejected but if another comes in his own name Israel would accept. They accept the antichrist. Hosea 3 links the return of the sacrifice with the return of the kingdom. In Revelation and Daniel we see in the middle of the week the sacrifice is taken away. The abomination of desolation is set up.
Hosea 3
en the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover[fn] and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.” 2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.
Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Here again is the blindness lifted from Israel and it is promised at a time when the sacrifices is resumed and at the time that David as king is raised up. They Israel shall fear the LORD in the latter days. Israel is a nation again and they have prepared everything for the return of the sacrifice at a time when global government is looming under the slogan peace and safety. At the same time the ecumenical movement is trying to equalize all faiths as equal paths to God and merge humanity. Every possible scenario detailed from scripture is lined up the way literalist or dispensationalist would see it. I agree with you about one covenant for salvation and Israel destiny is to be saved. They are indeed the unfaithful wife of Hosea who will be bought back by the LORD.

 

[keras]

36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Interesting quote, indeed!
Just exactly who is the Seed of Israel? Jesus, of course, therefore we who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, ARE the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
We Christians ARE the righteous nation that will be given the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43

Thinking that the Jewish people will all be saved and then redeemed, conflicts with many prophesies telling of their judgement and that only a remnant will survive, Romans 9:27
The doctrine of national Israel, the ethnic Jewish people, being on earth while the Church goes to heaven, is an immutable tenet of the 'rapture' theory. Two wrong teachings, quite contrary to what the Prophetic Word actually says.

The other aspect of who is the true Israel, is the truth that the Christian nations are mainly descended from the ten Northern tribes, the House of Israel, so the majority of Christians today ARE the children of Abraham, by descent and more importantly; by faith.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Interesting quote, indeed!
Just exactly who is the Seed of Israel? Jesus, of course, therefore we who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, ARE the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
We Christians ARE the righteous nation that will be given the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43

Thinking that the Jewish people will all be saved and then redeemed, conflicts with many prophesies telling of their judgement and that only a remnant will survive, Romans 9:27
The doctrine of national Israel, the ethnic Jewish people, being on earth while the Church goes to heaven, is an immutable tenet of the 'rapture' theory. Two wrong teachings, quite contrary to what the Prophetic Word actually says.

The other aspect of who is the true Israel, is the truth that the Christian nations are mainly descended from the ten Northern tribes, the House of Israel, so the majority of Christians today ARE the children of Abraham, by descent and more importantly; by faith.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Interesting quote, indeed!
Just exactly who is the Seed of Israel? Jesus, of course, therefore we who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, ARE the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
We Christians ARE the righteous nation that will be given the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43

Thinking that the Jewish people will all be saved and then redeemed, conflicts with many prophesies telling of their judgement and that only a remnant will survive, Romans 9:27
The doctrine of national Israel, the ethnic Jewish people, being on earth while the Church goes to heaven, is an immutable tenet of the 'rapture' theory. Two wrong teachings, quite contrary to what the Prophetic Word actually says.

The other aspect of who is the true Israel, is the truth that the Christian nations are mainly descended from the ten Northern tribes, the House of Israel, so the majority of Christians today ARE the children of Abraham, by descent and more importantly; by faith.

The name Israel means governed by God and the promise to Abraham that in His seed all the world would be blessed is followed by a genealogy the expands the promise and refines it so the line is followed through Judah then to David all the way down to both Mary and Joseph, Mary through Nathan Davids son thus dodging the curse of Jechoniah. Jesus is the seed he is God in flesh king of kings and Lord of Lords. Those who like Abraham as believer receive the blessing and this is offered to all to be by faith governed by God and therefor Israel by faith. The church is indeed the fullfilment of this promise.
In Gods word a prophet has to be 100% correct and the entity of Israel exists as the promised to these specific peoples descended from the 12 patriarchs. The book of Daniel Chapter 9 gives specific objectives to be achieved and the scope is given in these verses.
24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

It is obvious that this scope Daniels people and the holy city would be Israel and the Jerusalem. The everlasting righteousness is when the Lord returns. The end of sins is certainly not happened and the vision and prophecy are not sealed up. Jesus is most Holy and as before He ascended Jesus was asked in Acts.
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

The disciples understood that the kingdom would be restored. Jesus answer describes what the church age is all about and Jesus said the Father has put these times and seasons under his own authority. If you look back at my threads on this topic Gabriel the angel promised Jesus would sit on Davids throne. Zachrias promised by the Holy spirit that Jesus would deliver Israel from there enemies and they would be able to worship and serve without fear all the days of there lives. ( note the church has not been delivered from their enemies either and we cannot all over the world worship and serve without fear as great persecution has gone on over every age of man) I show in Zech 14 Israel being delivered from their enemies at the 2nd coming. In this chapter It is said the LORD is king over all the earth. Int is Dan 2 fulfilled the stone cut without hands descends and this stone becomes a mountain that covers the earth and a kingdom that has no end. This is when Satan is bound 1000 years and when the angels in Rev declare the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ.
The prophecy in Dan 9 speaks of a king that is too come and the 70th week of Daniel is still future and was 70AD. There were no two witnesses in 70AD. Nero was the king that came the prophecy speaks of the people of a future king to come would put an end to the sacrifices. Jesus referred to the abomination of desolation as a future event. The scope of the mark of the beast is global in Rev and was localized in 70 AD. They did not set up an image and require men to worship it and there was no one calling down fire from heaven. God promised all these things would be taking place. Bible literalist Isaac Newton understood Israel would have to become a nation again for these things to take place. The greatest threat to replacement theology is seeing Israel on the map as they are today and surrounded by their enemies who want to make them cease from being a nation again. Then seeing as Israel has prepared everything necessary for the return of the sacrifice and ignoring it as Biblically insignificant.
I posted Hosea 3 that links the return of the sacrifice with the latter days and the return of the king, David. If there is no Rapture the certainty of these other events I have posted is undeniable. You claim two errors and I conclude that the scenario I support does include a rapture but is not dependent on the rapture to hold its course. In Zech 14 when the LORD is king over all the earth the nations are required to keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. Even Egypt is singled out for this and no doubt into the millennium Egypt will fail and be in drought and call out to the LORD and he will show them this verse. Zech 14 shows the LORD coming with his saints and a clear continuation of events on earth. The literal splitting of the Mt of Olives and the creation of a new river that flows year round is not an allegory. This day at night it is daylight and Israel is saved and the remnant the survives 1/3 according to scripture is confessing the LORD is one. This is the blindness Paul talked about and Israel being brought under the new covenant. The church is indeed Israel and Israel the nation will eventually be Israel governed by God. Hosea 1 And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There it shall be said to them,
‘You are sons of the living God.’

This in Zechariah is that moment that they become sons of the living God and Indeed Israel governed By God and what in Acts 1 was the time and seasons under the Fathers authority to restore the kingdom. Jesus will be king over all the earth and reign from Jerusalem.

Zechariah 8 speaks of these days too

Again the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
With great fervor I am zealous for her.’
3 “Thus says the LORD:
‘I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the LORD of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.’
4 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘Old men and old women shall again sit
In the streets of Jerusalem,
Each one with his staff in his hand
Because of great age.
5 The streets of the city
Shall be full of boys and girls
Playing in its streets.’
6 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?’
Says the LORD of hosts.
7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east
And from the land of the west;
8 I will bring them back,
And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
They shall be My people
And I will be their God,
In truth and righteousness.’
Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” ’ ”

You see the 70th week of Daniel is coming upon the world now and all this destiny is to happen. When has the mt of Olives split or a new river flowed from Jerusalem or the nations been required to come celebrate Tabernacles. You see I believe the word of the prophets will come to pass as it is written are you making these passages allegories when the very events described in them are lining up with modern history? Unwise to do so.

 

[BABerean2]

There is a prophetic destiny for Israel to one day be brought under the new covenant.

The only way you can attempt to make your idea work, is by cutting Hebrews 8:6-13 out of your Bible.

The exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found repeated word for word in the passage and is bracketed by verses making it clear that Christ fulfilled this covenant during the first century.

You also have to ignore how Peter addressed the crowd on the Day of Pentecost as, "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".

The time for salvation of the Jewish people is now.

There is no Plan B.

.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The only way you can attempt to make your idea work, is by cutting Hebrews 8:6-13 out of your Bible.

The exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found repeated word for word in the passage and is bracketed by verses making it clear that Christ fulfilled this covenant during the first century.

You also have to ignore how Peter addressed the crowd on the Day of Pentecost as, "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".

The time for salvation of the Jewish people is now.

There is no Plan B.

Hi I have made it clear that I understand the new covenant and what the seed of Israel is and made clear distinctions of how national Israel is brought to salvation at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and integrated many prophetic passages that all culminate on that day when the kingdom is on earth for 1000 years with Satan bound. Here is Isaiah 2 speaking of this kingdom age
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

If you look at my post regarding zechariah 14 you see this very thrown being established and for these 1000 years there will be no war. I have always agreed that there is only one new covenant by which men must be saved and that Israel is not saved by any other means. I maintain that the covenant with Abraham to his descendants to have the land of Canaan is still in force. This covenant is made with Abraham and his descendants and is not the same as covenant that was made with Moses that Jeremiah 31 promised to bring in the new one. The case I site throughout maintains a literal consistency with the texts and expects them to be fulfilled exactly as written.

In the book of Hebrews Chapter 1 hints at what I am talking about saying when God again brings the son of man into the world. He links psalm 110 to this day
The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
I agree 100% that the new covenant is fully in force and the only means we must be saved. The destiny of Israel is to accept the antichrist be persecuted after the abomination of desolation in the middle of the 7 year tribulation. Then be invaded and overrun as Armageddon breaks out. The Lord returns and at the 2nd coming they recognize Jesus as God and messiah. Why is it so hard to see the covenant with Abraham for the land as a possession to his specific descendants is not the same covenant made with Moses creating the day of atonement? God passed by the split animals and consumed them and made no conditions on Abraham for this promise. The Law of Moses was a conditional promise and God enforced the blessings and the cursing according to his word.
in Duet 4 Moses warned that Israel would break the covenant and God would scatter them into all the nations. In this same passage God reaffirms He will not forget the covenant made to the Fathers. You see the destruction and dispersion of Israel did happen yet God affirms He will keep that covenant. They are separate promises.

5 “When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the LORD your God to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice 31 (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.