[MOVED]Are you lawless?

[Poster0]

This scripture should be a good compromise that will bring us closer together in agreement. It mentions both divine power and using our efforts to live in it.

2 Peter 13 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Poster0]

Sorry, i probably seem a little pushy. It not my desire to be that way, and i actually hate these debates. I would rather stay away from any kind of disagreement because discussions without debate never make me feel bad. However, i do feel a need to debate this. Please bear with me if i seem pushy.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yeah, commands in that sense are not laws per se.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yeah, commands in that sense are not laws per se.

They are more akin to suggestions, and to try and put some "teeth" in them the pro-law group has to insist upon an incentive (reward) for "Keeping" them. We don't get land (Israel) nor protection from God but rather we get to "keep" our salvation which was given to us by believing. In other words the Law is akin to an Indian Giver type situation. We accept Jesus and supposedly have salvation but if we don't then keep the Law as proponents describe it then God says he wants his gift back from us and we are no longer saved. This situation has one continually wondering how much of the Law they have to "keep" and how much that they can "break" either on purpose or accidentally or whatever before God decides one is no longer proving themselves "good" enough to be saved.

 

[Poster0]

They are more akin to suggestions, and to try and put some "teeth" in them the pro-law group has to insist upon an incentive (reward) for "Keeping" them. We don't get land (Israel) nor protection from God but rather we get to "keep" our salvation which was given to us by believing. In other words the Law is akin to an Indian Giver type situation. We accept Jesus and supposedly have salvation but if we don't then keep the Law as proponents describe it then God says he wants his gift back from us and we are no longer saved. This situation has one continually wondering how much of the Law they have to "keep" and how much that they can "break" either on purpose or accidentally or whatever before God decides one is no longer proving themselves "good" enough to be saved.

Suggestions? I don't see them as suggestions because a suggestion is something that can be ignored. I believe that the commands we are given are not just suggestions, but are instead a clear path that God wants us to walk . You are the one focused on how much law a person must keep. Im only focused on following the Lord. I believe his commands are truth and i want to follow truth. I respect your efforts to promote grace, and perhaps you mean well, but i think you are not promoting Grace by devaluing the Lords commands, but instead you are only promoting strife. I think your theology needs re-examined and needs tuned as well.

 

[Poster0]

I agree with part of what y'all say. However its the part where you devalue the Lords commands, that i cannot agree with.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I agree with part of what y'all say. However its the part where you devalue the Lords commands, that i cannot agree with.

We uphold the Lord's commands. it'stheway to uphold that is being discussed.

Are we to uphold by human effort, like Sarah, or by hearing with faith, like Abraham.

Because upholding the law, by the Spirit, is by hearing with faith.

 

[Poster0]

We uphold the Lord's commands. it'stheway to uphold that is being discussed.

Are we to uphold by human effort, like Sarah, or by hearing with faith, like Abraham.

Because upholding the law, by the Spirit, is by hearing with faith.

I think you are making this much harder than is necessary. You are overthinking it. I like to keep things simple because thats the way in my opinion. I dont need to worry about hearing of faith because i hear everything Christ is teaching me. I hear that i cannot boast or save myself, and i hear that i must put off works of flesh and live in holiness. I hear that holiness is all about love and walking in the spirit. I hear and i follow. Its that simple. No need to make it complicated.

 

[Poster0]

The grace camp seems to have created a law themselves. THey have snared themselves by that law. They have turned simplicity and liberty into a prison of strife, fear and worry. Im not afraid to follow commands. Im not afraid to fail either because i have learned to live by hope, not condemnation. Y'all seem hopelessly stuck in a prison of theology.

 

[Poster0]

I have learned that there is blessing in obedience. I obey not out of fear but because i know its the way, i know that i will be blessed if a persevere but will only experience hardship if i don't. Its not salvation i'm trying to earn, but i'm trying to walk in the spirit and not the flesh. I use to fear, but not now. Fear has already devoured me and now im dead, now i live new. I live by hope, faith and love. I cant move mountains but i can live by the Lords good commands that guide me daily. I struggle with many wretched things, sometimes i fail but i dont give up. I keep moving forward in hope and i know there is reward in obedience because i have experienced it enough to know it.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The grace camp seems to have created a law themselves. THey have snared themselves by that law. They have turned simplicity and liberty into a prison of strife, fear and worry. Im not afraid to follow commands. Im not afraid to fail either because i have learned to live by hope, not condemnation. Y'all seem hopelessly stuck in a prison of theology.

However, Scripture rebukes those who use self effort. It calls it testing God, making Him angry. Christ could have jumped off the high place, survived and become the Messiah for all who witnessed the miracle. But He said, "It is written, you should not put the Lord your God to the test". He said He only could do what the Father had allowed Him to do.

Israel marched against the Canaanites, and the result was a disaster. Sarah used Hagar, and THAT was a disaster.

God said Israel would never enter rest.

Scripture says the son of the slave woman would never share in the inheritance of the son of faith.

That's sad. Those who disbelieve God are stuck in a situation that provides only struggle and defeat and oppression.

 

[Poster0]

However, Scripture rebukes those who use self effort. It calls it testing God, making Him angry. Christ could have jumped off the high place, survived and become the Messiah for all who witnessed the miracle. But He said, "It is written, you should not put the Lord your God to the test". He said He only could do what the Father had allowed Him to do.

Israel marched against the Canaanites, and the result was a disaster. Sarah used Hagar, and THAT was a disaster.

God said Israel would never enter rest.

Scripture says the son of the slave woman would never share in the inheritance of the son of faith.

That's sad. Those who disbelieve God are stuck in a situation that provides only struggle and defeat and oppression.

Sorry, but i am not guilty of anything, so please don't try to cast your fear onto me. I am free to do as God leads me and i dont need to hear your fear mongering and flawed theology. Dont try to put me in your prison of theology.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Sorry, but i am not guilty of anything, so please don't try to cast your fear onto me. I am free to do as God leads me and i dont need to hear your fear mongering and flawed theology. Dont try to put me in your prison of theology.

This is what God teaches about being in slavery:

Galatians 5:1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

This is the rebuke for those who insisted on being prisoners to law:


Acts 15:10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Galatians 3:2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


Are you not interested in being perfected? Your posts indicate you want to bury your gift, not wear wedding garments:

Matthew 25:24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

Matthew 22:1But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without
a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.

Are you rejecting liberation?

John 8:32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 8:36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Romans 8:15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

Galatians 4:31Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

It's clear that we can explain what the requirements are: we must believe, must accept that the sanctifying work of the God has now been gifted, supernatural divine intervention, making us good tress, to produce good fruit, by the Spirit, received through hearing with faith.

On the other hand, you can't explain why human effort is labeled as slavery, the son of a slave woman, Hagar.

 

[Poster0]

This is what God teaches about being in slavery:

Galatians 5:1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

This is the rebuke for those who insisted on being prisoners to law:


Acts 15:10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Galatians 3:2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


Are you not interested in being perfected? Your posts indicate you want to bury your gift, not wear wedding garments:

Matthew 25:24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

Matthew 22:1But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without
a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.

Are you rejecting liberation?

John 8:32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 8:36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Romans 8:15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

Galatians 4:31Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

It's clear that we can explain what the requirements are: believers must accept the sanctifying work of the God, supernatural divine intervention, making us good tress, to produce good fruit, by the Spirit, received through hearing with faith.

On the other hand, you can't explain why human effort is labeled as slavery, the son of a slave woman, Hagar.

Im a slave of Christ, not a bond woman. I don't fear anything either, i have grown in the Lord by persevering as he commanded, and now i am resting securely in hope, not condemnation. You have created a theological prison for yourself my friend, and i'm only here to visit, and so im sorry that i cannot come in and join you.

 

[lessofme]

My spiritually immature view of now is, that we are to make every effort, but that the Lord knows we will fail at times. We are being "trained in righteousness". To perfectly follow every command of God would be to be as holy as one could be on earth, but the bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. However, we were born into sin, and won't be freed from our sinful bodies until he returns. As to the importance of it? All is vanity, the only real gain on this earth is godliness. Just my conclusion thus far...
O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. Psalms 119:97

 

[Poster0]

Your fallacy is in how you interpret scripture. Its ok to be a slave to righteousness, but its not ok to be a slave to fear. We must grow past fear and move onto grace, i agree. I thank you for your preaching of grace, i find that part edifying, but i dont thank you for your preaching against the Lords commands because i find that not edifying.

Look here, paul says that sons of God are slaves to righteousness, but not to fear or the law of sin and death.

John 8:35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Romans 8:17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.”

 

[Poster0]

I believe that paul is teaching us that we are free from the law of sin and death. We need not fear. However for that very reason we can now obey His commands without fear because we are free from bondage to fear. What should i fear if Christ teaches me not to fear? Am i supposed to fear following his commandments? That's fear too, ya know? Christ said do not fear, but he also gave many other commands too. If i fail in anything, i will just get back up and move forward because God has set me free from fear and condemnation. Even if i experience fear, i will not condemn myself because i am not a slave to fear. Does that make sense? It does to me. That's my faith and im sticking to it.

 

[Poster0]

Seriously, i am thankful for your debate. Searching those scriptures and meditating on them has actually boosted the strength of Gods grace in my mind and soul, however it has also boosted my ability to obey the Lords commands without fear. I feel very blessed today. Amen! Praise the Lord.

 

[Poster0]

My spiritually immature view of now is, that we are to make every effort, but that the Lord knows we will fail at times. We are being "trained in righteousness". To perfectly follow every command of God would be to be as holy as one could be on earth, but the bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. However, we were born into sin, and won't be freed from our sinful bodies until he returns. As to the importance of it? All is vanity, the only real gain on this earth is godliness. Just my conclusion thus far...
O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. Psalms 119:97

Amen sister. I love the commands of the Apostles and of Christ, which are the same. I also love proverbs, even though it sometimes makes me feel rebuked. I'm just thankful for Gods grace and his instructions. One thing is for sure, we can accept Gods grace and not fear, we can move forward and grow in grace. Amen.

 

[Poster0]

This.