MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

[jerry kelso]

baberean2,

1. 2 Kings 17:37-38; Old Covenant forever.
Jeremiah 31:31-34-37; New Covenant forever by replacing the Old Covenant that Israel broke.
So there is no dual covenant.
Jews that are believers today in the church can still be a Jew culturally.
Torah can be filled in light of the New Covenant standards and not under the guise of Moses.

2. Matthew 23:37-39 rejected the KoG spiritual rule in their hearts and could not enter the Physical reign on earth and Jesus prophesied their ruin in Matthew 24:1-2 which was 70 A.D.
This is why Jesus told the disciples that the time of the KoH wasn't for them to know.
The New Covenant was going to happen such as in Isaiah 53 whether Israel accepted it or not.
Israel rejected it and there was no scripture that said they would accept the NC as a nation.
Also, the NC was predestined Ephesians 1:4-5. The church was a mystery but was in the Plan of God Ephesians 2:14:15; 3:3-6.
Gentiles had to be saved John 3:16 and they were grafted into the olive tree to provoke them to Jealously Roman's 11:11.

3. I have to stop here for now. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The church was a mystery but was in the Plan of God Ephesians 2:14:15; 3:3-6.

The Church may have been a mystery to most, but according to Paul it was not a mystery to Hosea.

Rom 9:25　 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."　
Rom 9:26　 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."　
Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　

.

 

[jerry kelso]

The Church may have been a mystery to most, but according to Paul it was not a mystery to Hosea.

Rom 9:25　 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."　
Rom 9:26　 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."　
Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　

.

baberean2,

1. Hosea is talking about the backslidden Jewish nation Hosea 1:10.
The Jews knew the Gentiles were to be saved through proselytizing.
Peter proved that in Acts 10.
Paul knew Hosea was talking about the restoration of the Jewish nation Hosea 1:10.
Hosea 2:23 goes with Romans 9:25-28 which shows that Israel was the one intended to be those who were not his people but would be his people and children of the living God Hosea 1:10. Have to go. Jerry kelso

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

The last trumpis the last trump for Church , last trumpet means that " your time is over , go back to home " . There are different trumpets for different groups . If you think there is no rapture you have many problems with Scriptures like John 14:3 , Jesus said that we go to him not that he come to us in this Scripture .

Same with this scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.
Without rapture you would have to interpret it like this : we are church-bride of Christ , Christ will beat his bride with tribulations before he come then he marry her so comfort yourself with these words ...

 

[keras]

1. Hosea is talking about the backslidden Jewish nation Hosea 1:10.
The Jews knew the Gentiles were to be saved through proselytizing.
Peter proved that in Acts 10.
Paul knew Hosea was talking about the restoration of the Jewish nation Hosea 1:10.
Hosea 2:23 goes with Romans 9:25-28 which shows that Israel was the one intended to be those who were not his people but would be his people and children of the living God Hosea 1:10. Have to go. Jerry kelso

This statement is incorrect.
Paul made it quite clear that it was Christians who are the ones that God would call His people.
Proved by Romans 9:27, that says; But about Israel, [the Jewish people] only a remnant will be saved.

Also proved by the many prophesies about the judgement of Judah. Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 21:11-14, Luke 19:27, Matthew 21:41-43, +

 

[BABerean2]

Without rapture you would have to interpret it like this : we are church-bride of Christ , Christ will beat his bride with tribulations before he come then he marry her so comfort yourself with these words ...

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.　

Why don't you go to the Middle East where our Brothers and Sisters are being beheaded and crucified and tell their family members that we will not go through tribulation.


Rev_1:9　 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.



Rev 12:12　 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."　

At least part of the tribulation period is Satan's wrath upon believers.

.

 

[Hal A Peno]

What makes you think the "great trumpet" in Isaiah 27 equates to the last trumpet of Revelation?

Isaiah 27 is one of Isaiah's most interesting chapters. It has Islam written all over it. I say the OP is correct in saying the 'great trumpet' of isaiah 27 is the last and seventh trump, and the 'great sound of a trumpet' in Mathew 24, are all the same. If you look at what Wailingwall underlined, it clearly indicates the millennial kingdom has arrived, that comes only after the seventh trumpet.
Isaiah speaks more about that time than any other prophet.

The seventh trump is the last trump. In Thes. a trumpet sounds and Christians are raised at the sound of it. That trumpet can only be a 'prophetic trumpet' since a prophetic event is said to take place when it sounds. Besides that, why would a rapture occur at some Jewish trumpet when Judaism denies the Christ anyway.

 

[jgr]

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in those parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those of us who refuse to be “rapture wimps.”

 

[Marilyn C]

“rapture wimps.”

Hi jgr,

It is unfortunate that the `rapture` has been presented to you as such. The reality is that when the Lord comes for His Body and together they go to the third heaven, where Christ will be coronated, then and only then will the judgment of fallen angels and the world system take place. This the Apostle Paul told to the believers at Corinth. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

So...it is imperative that the mature Body of Christ, (by the Holy Spirit - Eph. 4: 13) connect with the Head - Christ, so that together they will rule & reign with Him. (Rev. 3: 21)

`though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.` (1 Cor. 13: 3)

It seems to me there is a thought that WE are somehow really great if we .....give our body etc. The reality is to `die to self` which is much harder & then to be `partakers of the divine nature.` (2 Peter 1: 4)

One way is to be self glorifying, `I can go thro....` and the other is Christ glorifying, `All of Christ & none of self.`

Marilyn.

 

[keras]

But the promise is only for those of us who refuse to be “rapture wimps.”

I certainly refute the pretentious idea of a rapture to heaven.
But those who have been fooled by that lie, will still retain their salvation and God's promises hold for every faithful Christian. The difficulty for the 'rapture' believer, is their possible loss of faith, when what they believed doesn't happen.

 

[Marilyn C]

I certainly refute the pretentious idea of a rapture to heaven.
But those who have been fooled by that lie, will still retain their salvation and God's promises hold for every faithful Christian. The difficulty for the 'rapture' believer, is their possible loss of faith, when what they believed doesn't happen.

Hi keras,

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

And where would that `throne` be?

Marilyn.

 

[jgr]

Hi jgr,

It is unfortunate that the `rapture` has been presented to you as such. The reality is that when the Lord comes for His Body and together they go to the third heaven, where Christ will be coronated, then and only then will the judgment of fallen angels and the world system take place. This the Apostle Paul told to the believers at Corinth. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

So...it is imperative that the mature Body of Christ, (by the Holy Spirit - Eph. 4: 13) connect with the Head - Christ, so that together they will rule & reign with Him. (Rev. 3: 21)

`though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.` (1 Cor. 13: 3)

It seems to me there is a thought that WE are somehow really great if we .....give our body etc. The reality is to `die to self` which is much harder & then to be `partakers of the divine nature.` (2 Peter 1: 4)

One way is to be self glorifying, `I can go thro....` and the other is Christ glorifying, `All of Christ & none of self.`

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Do you not think that one reason for the rapture doctrine's popularity is that it offers escape from tribulation?

If I believed that there was a rapture, I'd certainly welcome that offer. Why would I want to suffer needlessly?

The rapture doctrine could potentially salvage some credibility if it would affirm those scriptures that attest to the value and purpose of tribulation, and would offer the option to refuse rapture and submit to tribulation. But of course the doctrine offers no such option. Thus we have the scriptures that attest to the value and purpose of tribulation, being effectively contradicted by the rapture doctrine which offers escape from tribulation.

This is further evidence of the illegitimacy and invalidity of the doctrine.

I concur with your further thoughts, and suggest that tribulation has contributory value and purpose in the ongoing lifelong quest for greater Christlikeness.

 

[BABerean2]

Hi jgr,

It is unfortunate that the `rapture` has been presented to you as such. The reality is that when the Lord comes for His Body and together they go to the third heaven, where Christ will be coronated, then and only then will the judgment of fallen angels and the world system take place. This the Apostle Paul told to the believers at Corinth. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

So...it is imperative that the mature Body of Christ, (by the Holy Spirit - Eph. 4: 13) connect with the Head - Christ, so that together they will rule & reign with Him. (Rev. 3: 21)

`though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.` (1 Cor. 13: 3)

It seems to me there is a thought that WE are somehow really great if we .....give our body etc. The reality is to `die to self` which is much harder & then to be `partakers of the divine nature.` (2 Peter 1: 4)

One way is to be self glorifying, `I can go thro....` and the other is Christ glorifying, `All of Christ & none of self.`

Marilyn.

Corrie Ten Boom's family was sent to Nazi concentration camps for hiding Jews during WWII. Most of Corrie's family died in the camps. Corrie was released because of a clerical error. During her lifetime she saw how the pretrib doctrine had a negative effect upon Christians in nations under persecution.

In the following video an American woman reads a letter Corrie wrote during the 1970s.

 

[keras]

Hi keras,
`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

And where would that `throne` be?
Marilyn.

On earth, where Jesus will reign for 1000 years. Proved by Revelation 5:9-10

Anyway, God, heaven and the Throne are all spiritual entities and in another dimension. But God can allow humans to see them, as Ezekiel 1:1, and Stephen did.
Trying to make that a rapture proof just shows the lack of support for that theory.

 

[Hal A Peno]

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in those parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those of us who refuse to be “rapture wimps.”

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints. This passage alone thoroughly debunks pre-tribulationism.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[jerry kelso]

This statement is incorrect.
Paul made it quite clear that it was Christians who are the ones that God would call His people.
Proved by Romans 9:27, that says; But about Israel, [the Jewish people] only a remnant will be saved.

Also proved by the many prophesies about the judgement of Judah. Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 21:11-14, Luke 19:27, Matthew 21:41-43, +

keras,

1. Hosea 1 is in the context of the Jews both Israel and Judah.
Judah will be the believing remnant in the tribulation and the nation of Israel will be preserved in the wilderness Revelation 12:13-17.
Hosea says Judah and Israel will be gathered together in verse 11 Abe one head. This goes in line with Ezekiel 37 as being one stick.
Israel will be as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured and were not his people but will become the sons of the living God.
Hosea 2:23; sowing her unto the earth; having not obtained mercy and who were not God's people shall be his people and their God.
Romans 9:26 goes with Hosea 2:23.
Gentiles were not God's people until Calvary and that is true.
Israel being as the sand of the sea was direct to Israel the nation.
They knew nothing about the church.
The Jews knew that the families of the earth being gentiles would be blessed.
So verse 26 does not prove a spiritual Jew theory to the extreme that tried to destroy Israel's gifts and calling which cannot be done for they are unconditional eternal covenants based on obedience which all of Israel will obey in that day Romans 11:25-29. Jerry kelso

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

Do you not think that one reason for the rapture doctrine's popularity is that it offers escape from tribulation?

If I believed that there was a rapture, I'd certainly welcome that offer. Why would I want to suffer needlessly?

The rapture doctrine could potentially salvage some credibility if it would affirm those scriptures that attest to the value and purpose of tribulation, and would offer the option to refuse rapture and submit to tribulation. But of course the doctrine offers no such option. Thus we have the scriptures that attest to the value and purpose of tribulation, being effectively contradicted by the rapture doctrine which offers escape from tribulation.

This is further evidence of the illegitimacy and invalidity of the doctrine.

I concur with your further thoughts, and suggest that tribulation has contributory value and purpose in the ongoing lifelong quest for greater Christlikeness.

Hi jgr,

You ask valid questions that any thinking person would ask. However....someone who fears `the tribulation` would also exhibit fear in their life and as such will not be `caught away.` Their fearful attitude which is not Christ-like would keep them focussed on the horrors of this world.

Now what can override gravity, (rapture - caught away) nothing but Christ`s love that will draw His body to Himself when He has brought it to maturity.

I believe the doctrine of the `rapture,` needs to be taught within the context of God`s purpose for the Body of Christ and that within God`s greater purposes for Christ.

Also, the rapture is NOT imminent as some think, as scripture clearly says that when the Body is brought to the unity of the faith, a perfect, (mature) man, then it will not be tossed to & fro by every wind of doctrine. We are hardly at that stage yet. However by the Holy Spirit, I believe He has led us thus far and will complete the Body of Christ`s maturity of the knowledge of Christ & His purposes.

I am at present preparing a series for my blog, on `The Eternal Purposes,` and may have a thread where people can discuss what I have written there. You may be interested to read why I believe in the rapture.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Corrie Ten Boom's family was sent to Nazi concentration camps for hiding Jews during WWII. Most of Corrie's family died in the camps. Corrie was released because of a clerical error. During her lifetime she saw how the pretrib doctrine had a negative effect upon Christians in nations under persecution.

In the following video an American woman reads a letter Corrie wrote during the 1970s.

Hi BABerean,

I quite understand that people who thought that God would protect them against any tribulation would fall apart during such tribulation. However that does not discount the fact of the `catching away,` but just shows that it was taught wrongly.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

On earth, where Jesus will reign for 1000 years. Proved by Revelation 5:9-10

Anyway, God, heaven and the Throne are all spiritual entities and in another dimension. But God can allow humans to see them, as Ezekiel 1:1, and Stephen did.
Trying to make that a rapture proof just shows the lack of support for that theory.

Hi keras,

So...the Lord Jesus Christ who has been given all power and authority in heaven and earth and is far above all principality and power and might and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age and the one to come, this Lord Jesus Christ you say will then be operating from His `footstool.` (Ref. Matt. 28: 18, Eph. 1: 21, Isa. 66:1) hardly, bro.

Being on earth would put the Lord Jesus Christ BELOW the angels, BELOW where even Lucifer had a throne in the 3rd heaven, BELOW where even Satan operated in the Universal realm, (Principalities and Powers area), BELOW where those are registered in heaven, BELOW the New Jerusalem, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

On earth? Hardly, for there would still be sinful man present, & rebellion. And that certainly isn`t the inheritance that I personally am looking forward to as promised in scripture.

BTW Rev. 5: 9 & 10 has been written in error. The word `epi` means `over,` not `on` in this case as other scriptures confer.

`And God has made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign `epi` over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 10)


Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

.