MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

BABerean2

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Hi BABerean,

I quite understand that people who thought that God would protect them against any tribulation would fall apart during such tribulation. However that does not discount the fact of the `catching away,` but just shows that it was taught wrongly.

Marilyn.

Most modern Christians do not know why the Two Peoples of God doctrine needs a pretrib removal of the Church.

The older "classic" version of the doctrine taught by Darby, Scofield, an Larkin stated that God would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ.
This is confirmed in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible where Scofield claims the Gospel at the end of the tribulation period is not the Gospel of Grace.



The problem is that based on Hebrews 8:6-13, the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". We also find the New Covenant to be "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, God is not going back to an "obsolete" Old Covenant with Moses as the mediator, instead of Christ.


.



.
 
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Marilyn C

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Most modern Christians do not know why the Two Peoples of God doctrine needs a pretrib removal of the Church.

The older "classic" version of the doctrine taught by Darby, Scofield, an Larkin stated that God would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ.
This is confirmed in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible where Scofield claims the Gospel at the end of the tribulation period is not the Gospel of Grace.



The problem is that based on Hebrews 8:6-13, the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". We also find the New Covenant to be "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, God is not going back to an "obsolete" Old Covenant with Moses as the mediator, instead of Christ.

Hi BABerean,

I do agree with you that God is not going back to the old Covenant of the law, with Moses and the Levitical priesthood. We agree that Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant - salvation through Christ and eternal life.

Then we read of the nation of Israel being promised the rulership over the nations of the world in the millennium. This is only possible as Christ will be the ruler over Israel. (Micah 4: 1- 3)

Then we read of the OT saints who had a revelation of a different promise - that they would go to a city whose builder and maker is God. (Heb. 11: 10, 13 - 16)

Finally the Body of Christ has been told that they will rule and reign with the Lord Jesus Christ on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

All through Christ the Mediator of the New Covenant.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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BABerean2

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Then we read of the nation of Israel being promised the rulership over the nations of the world in the millennium. This is only possible as Christ will be the ruler over Israel. (Micah 4: 1- 3)

You left out verses 4 and 5 for some reason.

The Mountain of the Lord (subtitle from eSword)

Mic 4:1  Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And peoples shall flow to it. 
Mic 4:2  Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
Mic 4:3  He shall judge between many peoples, And rebuke strong nations afar off; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore. 
Mic 4:4  But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, And no one shall make them afraid; For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. 
Mic 4:5  For all people walk each in the name of his god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God Forever and ever. 

"Forever and ever" is a lot longer than 1,000 years.

.
 
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Marilyn C

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You left out verses 4 and 5 for some reason.

The Mountain of the Lord (subtitle from eSword)

Mic 4:1  Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And peoples shall flow to it. 
Mic 4:2  Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
Mic 4:3  He shall judge between many peoples, And rebuke strong nations afar off; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore. 
Mic 4:4  But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, And no one shall make them afraid; For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. 
Mic 4:5  For all people walk each in the name of his god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God Forever and ever. 

"Forever and ever" is a lot longer than 1,000 years.

.

Hi BABerean,

Thanks for writing all those scriptures, and of course I believe that too - forever, as nations will be on the earth and Israel in the New Earth will be ruler over them, (under Christ).

Marilyn.
 
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keras

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BTW Rev. 5: 9 & 10 has been written in error. The word `epi` means `over,` not `on` in this case as other scriptures confer.
`And God has made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign `epi` over the earth.` (Rev. 5:
Over or on, they mean the same; a King rules over his kingdom, on the earth.
The fanciful idea of humans ruling a earthly domain from heaven is not Biblical. Only when Jesus becomes the King of the world, during His Millennium reign, will those Christians who have proved to be worthy, by their faith in all that will happen before then, become His regional rulers.

Jerry Kelso, your posts are incoherent and practically unreadable. Plus, from what I do get of your beliefs, we are just too far apart for any reasonable discussion.
 
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jerry kelso

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You left out verses 4 and 5 for some reason.

The Mountain of the Lord (subtitle from eSword)

Mic 4:1  Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And peoples shall flow to it. 
Mic 4:2  Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 
Mic 4:3  He shall judge between many peoples, And rebuke strong nations afar off; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore. 
Mic 4:4  But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, And no one shall make them afraid; For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. 
Mic 4:5  For all people walk each in the name of his god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God Forever and ever. 

"Forever and ever" is a lot longer than 1,000 years.

.

baberean2,

1. The KoH is an eternal kingdom Daniel 7:27.
There will always be a kingdom on earth.

2. The KoH reign pertaining to the 1000 years is just the first part till Christ puts down all sin and rebellion and gets rid of death.
That is plain in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 so the KoG will be all in all.
There will be no sin when the New Heaven and New Earth are created.

4. The Devil is not put in the bottomless pit till the 1000 year reign begins Revelation 20:1-3.
He is let out for a season when the 1000 years are expired verse 7 and verse 8 goes out to deceive the nation and is thrown into the lake of fire verse 10 where the beast and the false prophet are.
The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire at Armageddon Revelation 19:20.
Satan is not in the lake of fire until 1000 years after the Battle of Armageddon.

5. The 1000 years cannot be now for Satan deceives on earth now and is not bound in the bottomless pit.
The 1000 years cannot be when the KoG becomes all in all 1 Corinthians 24-28 which will be after all of Revelation 20 has come to pass.
It will not be when the New Heavens and New Earth Revelation 21:1 are created and God tabernacles with men Revelation 21:3 an the Holy City comes down from Heaven. Revelation 21:2.
Where are you going to put the 1000 year reign and what is its purpose? Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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baberean2,

1. There is no dual covenant to be saved by.
In Revelation 12:11 they overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb.
In Revelation 15:3; they sing the song of Moses and the Lamb and these are Jews and only they sing the song of Moses.
Hebrews 8:8-12; not according to the Old Covenant but to the New Covenant.
No dual covenant to be saved by.

2. You say Hebrews 8:8-12 happened at Calvary and the early church.
The NC happened at Calvary.
The early church was mostly Israel but the KoH program was over Matthew 23:37-39 and the consummation of the KoH was not for them to know and only the Father knew.

3. Matthew 24:12-14; And because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold.
This is speaking of sinners that need saved which talks directly to the disciples who were Jews so it is referring to the Jews of the last days verse 9-11.
Verse 13: But he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved.
Merely enduring to the end doesn't deal with salvation.
So verse 14 is really talking about the physical kingdom just like Jesus said in Matthew 4:17; Repent for the KoH is at hand.
Verse 14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then the end shall come.
The Jews will be looking for Messiah's coming to save their nation from oppression of the nations and they will declare the Kingdom is coming, the Kingdom is coming and Christ will destroy their enemies including the Antichrist and this will make them madder and madder and that is why she will be hated of all nations Verse 9.
This message is for a witness not to witness about salvation. It could be that this message will first come from the two witnesses and could also be the reason to why the AOD the Antichrist will claim he is God 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

4. Gospel means good news and Messiah coming back to save Israel from being annihilation by the nations in the last days.

5. The Gospel of salvation is also good news and it deals with the salvation of the soul. This is separate from the gospel of the Kingdom in Matthew 24:14.

6. If you think the word gospel to the Jews can only mean the gospel of salvation you are mistaken.
The gospel of the physical KoH to the Jews is different than the spiritual KoG according to salvation.
The wording and the context of Matthew 24 proves your position wrong. Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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baberean2,

1. First, Amillenialism puts the Messianic promises at risk such as the dynasty of Savid ruling the earth through Jesus Christ the Messiah.
Second, Amillenialism allowed the early church to be extremely anti-Semitic and history shows much of it under the banner of Christ.
Third, it caused the church to lose its root.
We serve a Jewish king, serve a church founded by Jewish leaders, venerate Jewish scripture.
God is not through with Israel yet and the destiny of Israel is denigrated by Amillenialism.
Fourth, the promise given to Mary by the angel is rendered indeterminate of ruling on David's throne.
The throne of David did not exist physically on earth during Jesus days. It is yet to be reestablished.
This is from Dr. Chuck Missler's book; Learn the Bible in 24 Hours of pgs. 256-257 on the Tradegy of Amillenialism.
I have stated these things before and gave you scripture before I ever read this book but I thought he said it pretty plain and strong to reinforce what I have shown from the scripture time after time.
I have also said it comes down to hermeneutics and Dr. Chuck Missler said the same thing and that is why Amillenialism fails. It has to allegorize wrongly and replace things wrongly and draw scriptures out of context as a result. Jerry kelso
 
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jgr

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baberean2,

1. First, Amillenialism puts the Messianic promises at risk such as the dynasty of Savid ruling the earth through Jesus Christ the Messiah.
Second, Amillenialism allowed the early church to be extremely anti-Semitic and history shows much of it under the banner of Christ.
Third, it caused the church to lose its root.
We serve a Jewish king, serve a church founded by Jewish leaders, venerate Jewish scripture.
God is not through with Israel yet and the destiny of Israel is denigrated by Amillenialism.
Fourth, the promise given to Mary by the angel is rendered indeterminate of ruling on David's throne.
The throne of David did not exist physically on earth during Jesus days. It is yet to be reestablished.
This is from Dr. Chuck Missler's book; Learn the Bible in 24 Hours of pgs. 256-257 on the Tradegy of Amillenialism.
I have stated these things before and gave you scripture before I ever read this book but I thought he said it pretty plain and strong to reinforce what I have shown from the scripture time after time.
I have also said it comes down to hermeneutics and Dr. Chuck Missler said the same thing and that is why Amillenialism fails. It has to allegorize wrongly and replace things wrongly and draw scriptures out of context as a result. Jerry kelso
Jerry,
1.
Hebrews 1
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Christ's reign, from the right hand of the Father, in His kingdom of righteousness, began following the purging of our sins. Nothing was put at risk. All that had been written was fulfilled.

2.
"Anti-Semitic" represents an attempt "play the race card" and to turn what is an exclusively spiritual issue into an ethnic/racial issue.

The early Church was anti-Judaic because Judaism rejects Christ.
The early Church was anti-Pharisaic because the Pharisees rejected Christ.
The early Church was anti-Talmudic because the Talmud rejects Christ.

But did the early Church routinely reject ethnic Jews who turned to Christ, because of their ethnicity? If not, then it was not anti-Semitic.

3.
The Church's Root has only and ever been Christ, and Christ alone; no one else, and nothing else.


Unsurprisingly, Missler errs in his description of amil, for it was amicably coexistent with historic/classic premil in the early post-apostolic Church, well before Origen. Justin Martyr, who pre-dates Origen by over five decades (and Catholicism by over two centuries) acknowledges:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

Similarly, Missler errs regarding premil in the Reformation. The Lutherans, Calvin, Cranmer et al explicitly rejected it.

But both amil and historic/classic premil are far closer to each other than either is to dispensationalism. As Wikipedia accurately observes:
"Premillennialism appeared in the available writings of the early church but it was evident that both views (amil and premil) existed side by side. The premillennial beliefs of the early church fathers, however, are quite different from the dominant form of modern-day premillennialism, namely dispensational premillennialism."


If you want objective information regarding either amil or historic/classic premil, you certainly will not get it from a Missler, or any other dispensational source.
 
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BABerean2

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God is not through with Israel yet and the destiny of Israel is denigrated by Amillenialism.

Act 10:34  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 
Act 10:35  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 


1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 



There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain forest and a descendant of Jacob living in the Middle East.
God is not now a respecter of people, based on their DNA.
The middle wall of separation between all races of people was broken down at the Cross.


Salvation is now based on Grace, instead of race.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry,
1.
Hebrews 1
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Christ's reign, from the right hand of the Father, in His kingdom of righteousness, began following the purging of our sins. Nothing was put at risk. All that had been written was fulfilled.

2.
"Anti-Semitic" represents an attempt "play the race card" and to turn what is an exclusively spiritual issue into an ethnic/racial issue.

The early Church was anti-Judaic because Judaism rejects Christ.
The early Church was anti-Pharisaic because the Pharisees rejected Christ.
The early Church was anti-Talmudic because the Talmud rejects Christ.

But did the early Church routinely reject ethnic Jews who turned to Christ, because of their ethnicity? If not, then it was not anti-Semitic.

3.
The Church's Root has only and ever been Christ, and Christ alone; no one else, and nothing else.


Unsurprisingly, Missler errs in his description of amil, for it was amicably coexistent with historic/classic premil in the early post-apostolic Church, well before Origen. Justin Martyr, who pre-dates Origen by over five decades (and Catholicism by over two centuries) acknowledges:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

Similarly, Missler errs regarding premil in the Reformation. The Lutherans, Calvin, Cranmer et al explicitly rejected it.

But both amil and historic/classic premil are far closer to each other than either is to dispensationalism. As Wikipedia accurately observes:
"Premillennialism appeared in the available writings of the early church but it was evident that both views (amil and premil) existed side by side. The premillennial beliefs of the early church fathers, however, are quite different from the dominant form of modern-day premillennialism, namely dispensational premillennialism."


If you want objective information regarding either amil or historic/classic premil, you certainly will not get it from a Missler, or any other dispensational source.

jgr,

1. John 18:36; Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not hence.
Jesus would have been King of the literal KoH reign on earth, but because the Jews rejected him they would not fight on his behalf.
John 6:15 the Jews wanted to him be King but the problem was that they wanted a conquering King like he will be at the 2nd coming, instead of the suffering Savior and repent of their sins. Repentance of the whole nation was the qualification for entrance into the Physical KoH reign and it will be the second time and they will accept him then Ezekiel 37:16-28.
It was prophesied that the Jews would reject Jesus. The NC was the final step in redemption and though the Jews and others in the Old Covenant were covered and forgiven they were not perfected or complete in Christ tilll the cross.
So the Kingdom of Jesus was not of this world for it was not the time for the earthly KoH reign.

2. Hebrews 1:3,8
Jesus throne is in Heaven now till the KoH reign on earth's comes Daniel 7:13-14.
Verse 8; the scepter of his righteousness is the scepter of his kingdom deals with salvation not the physical KoH reign on earth. The KoG deals with salvation Matthew 6:33; Romans 14:17.
Luke 24:24 is the same thing concerning the spiritual aspect of the KoG.

3. Anti Semitism is pointed at the Roman Catholic Church because of
their replacement theology where the church replaced Israel gifts and callings.
Jews were persecuted and antisemitism has been throughout the ages.

4. You didn't read Missler very good.
Jesus was born a Jew Matthew 1; Galatians 4:4;
Jews wrote most all the Bible and the foundation of the church was built on the Jewish disciples. It is a given that Christ is the foundation the whole church builds on whether Jew or Gentiles 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. They are the Olive tree into which Gentiles were grafted in. The Jewish roots cannot be denied.

5. Missler mentioned Origen encouraged allegorization of scripture.
Augustine relied on the allegorical method to formulate amillenial eschatology which claimed the 1000 year rule was figurative.
This view was adopted by the RCC and remains to this day.
The reformers did good about salvation and the authority of the Bible etc., but they didn't adequately reexamine the eschatology doctrines of the church.
Protestant denominations today remain amillennial in their interpretation.
Then there's Preterism and reconstructionism.

6. Historic Classic Premillennialism
Is Post tribulation and doesn't
believe in the pre tribulation rapture which is not scriptural.
The main thing historic classic premillennialism does is take Israel out of the picture so they cannot fulfill their gifts of calling concerning the KoH reign and rule with Jesus as the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4. Jerry kelso
 
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jgr

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jgr,

1. John 18:36; Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not hence.
Jesus would have been King of the literal KoH reign on earth, but because the Jews rejected him they would not fight on his behalf.
John 6:15 the Jews wanted to him be King but the problem was that they wanted a conquering King like he will be at the 2nd coming, instead of the suffering Savior and repent of their sins. Repentance of the whole nation was the qualification for entrance into the Physical KoH reign and it will be the second time and they will accept him then Ezekiel 37:16-28.
It was prophesied that the Jews would reject Jesus. The NC was the final step in redemption and though the Jews and others in the Old Covenant were covered and forgiven they were not perfected or complete in Christ tilll the cross.
So the Kingdom of Jesus was not of this world for it was not the time for the earthly KoH reign.

2. Hebrews 1:3,8
Jesus throne is in Heaven now till the KoH reign on earth's comes Daniel 7:13-14.
Verse 8; the scepter of his righteousness is the scepter of his kingdom deals with salvation not the physical KoH reign on earth. The KoG deals with salvation Matthew 6:33; Romans 14:17.
Luke 24:24 is the same thing concerning the spiritual aspect of the KoG.

3. Anti Semitism is pointed at the Roman Catholic Church because of
their replacement theology where the church replaced Israel gifts and callings.
Jews were persecuted and antisemitism has been throughout the ages.

4. You didn't read Missler very good.
Jesus was born a Jew Matthew 1; Galatians 4:4;
Jews wrote most all the Bible and the foundation of the church was built on the Jewish disciples. It is a given that Christ is the foundation the whole church builds on whether Jew or Gentiles 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. They are the Olive tree into which Gentiles were grafted in. The Jewish roots cannot be denied.

5. Missler mentioned Origen encouraged allegorization of scripture.
Augustine relied on the allegorical method to formulate amillenial eschatology which claimed the 1000 year rule was figurative.
This view was adopted by the RCC and remains to this day.
The reformers did good about salvation and the authority of the Bible etc., but they didn't adequately reexamine the eschatology doctrines of the church.
Protestant denominations today remain amillennial in their interpretation.
Then there's Preterism and reconstructionism.

6. Historic Classic Premillennialism
Is Post tribulation and doesn't
believe in the pre tribulation rapture which is not scriptural.
The main thing historic classic premillennialism does is take Israel out of the picture so they cannot fulfill their gifts of calling concerning the KoH reign and rule with Jesus as the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4. Jerry kelso
Jerry,
Starting from the end...

6.
Neither historic/classic premil nor amil nor postmil (which covers all of the "mils" for the first 18 centuries of true Christian Church history) have ever believed in the pretrib rapture, which makes it a modernist doctrine. They all recognized the KoH and KoG as one and the same, fulfilled in the NT gospel.

5.
You missed what I posted previously. Amil was part of the true Christian Church from its birth, well before Origen, Augustine, and the RCC. By the time of the Reformation, the RCC was overwhelmingly apostate, so its amil was no asset. Amil had survived in the true non-apostate Church, however, and was reaffirmed by the Reformers, who also rejected premil.

4.
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Christ acknowledges His Davidic ancestry, but declares that He alone is the root.

3. The RCC was characterized by increasing apostasy over its more than 1000 years of history, and is not representative of the true Christian Church, which it increasingly persecuted over that time, culminating in the deaths of more than 50 million true Christians.

Whatever persecution Jews experienced, while certainly not defensible, was based on their Judaic Pharisaic Talmudic rejection of Christ, not their ethnicity. Jews who accepted Christ were readily received into the true Christian Church.

2&1.
No kingdom or other distinctions are drawn any longer under the New Covenant. One kingdom, one gospel, one people of God, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body, one Spirit, one God and Father of all. (Ephesians 4:4-6 et al)
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry,
Starting from the end...

6.
Neither historic/classic premil nor amil nor postmil (which covers all of the "mils" for the first 18 centuries of true Christian Church history) have ever believed in the pretrib rapture, which makes it a modernist doctrine. They all recognized the KoH and KoG as one and the same, fulfilled in the NT gospel.

5.
You missed what I posted previously. Amil was part of the true Christian Church from its birth, well before Origen, Augustine, and the RCC. By the time of the Reformation, the RCC was overwhelmingly apostate, so its amil was no asset. Amil had survived in the true non-apostate Church, however, and was reaffirmed by the Reformers, who also rejected premil.

4.
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Christ acknowledges His Davidic ancestry, but declares that He alone is the root.

3. The RCC was characterized by increasing apostasy over its more than 1000 years of history, and is not representative of the true Christian Church, which it increasingly persecuted over that time, culminating in the deaths of more than 50 million true Christians.

Whatever persecution Jews experienced, while certainly not defensible, was based on their Judaic Pharisaic Talmudic rejection of Christ, not their ethnicity. Jews who accepted Christ were readily received into the true Christian Church.

2&1.
No kingdom or other distinctions are drawn any longer under the New Covenant. One kingdom, one gospel, one people of God, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body, one Spirit, one God and Father of all. (Ephesians 4:4-6 et al)

jgr,

I never missed anything.
1. Anti Semitism was mostly from the RCC down through the ages.
The Apostolic Doctrine to the extreme was the beginning of replacement theology because it put the RCC replacing Israel in their gifts and callings and based it on Matthew 16:19 about the Keys of the KoH which was not talking about the church, RCC or Protestant denominations.

2. Anti Semitic was throughout the RCC history and many times they killed because they thought they were doing God's will and pleasing him just like Saul of Tarsus before he got saved and was changed and named Paul 1 Timothy 1:11-13.

3. You believe in a post trib rapture and a spiritual Israel theory to the extreme and believe Israel will have a national repentance but not be at the head of the nations. This is wrong and a form of replacement theology by putting the church in their place and that is not scriptural because the law will go forth from Israel which is in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:2-4. Also, Genesis 12:3 the families of the earth will be blessed through the nation of Israel Genesis 12:2. This was an eternal promise and there is no scripture that says the same thing about the church.

4. Pre-trib rapture is Biblical so it is not modern.
The First Resurrection is of the dead of the tribulation saints Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6 those who didn't take the mark not the Church saints who are in Heaven at the Marriage of the Lamb before they come out of Heaven to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:8-10; 11-15.
Their rapture is right before the Wrath of God which is the 7 vials and is the Wrath of God on the Beast Kingdom worshipppers Revelation 16:2.
Armageddon is not until the 7th vial.
So their is no post rapture of the church and no rapture of saints dead and alive at the Second Coming on the Day of the Lord.

5. I said Jesus is the root and that is not in dispute. We are talking about the Jewish roots because of what they have contributed to the Bible because God started with Abraham to bring forth specifically the nation of Israel and the Messiah and the reason they are important is because of their covenant promises through the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants concerning the earth Genesis 12-15; Isaiah 9:6-7 etc.
This is why Paul said in Romans 3:1-2 of the importance of their eternal earthly calling and that they were given the oracles of God to administer.

6. We are in the church and there is only one gospel which there has always been about salvation to the soul Genesis 3:15.
The Literal KoH reign was since the garden of Eden for they lost the physical rule over everything and the ground was cursed. Read Genesis 3.
The Jewish nation and the physical curse when lifted and the restoration of all things is a scriptural fact that they are all a part of this together. So don't confuse the earthly calling of Israel and the Heavenly calling of the Church. They are two different things.
The church will have their part as well when they come down from Heaven at Armageddon and will be kings, priest, and the rulers of the Kingdom but the nation of Israel will be at the head of the nation because the law will go forth from Zion and nations will come up to Jerusalem to do the feasts which are all synonymous with Israel. Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Act 10:34  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 
Act 10:35  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 


1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 



There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain forest and a descendant of Jacob living in the Middle East.
God is not now a respecter of people, based on their DNA.
The middle wall of separation between all races of people was broken down at the Cross.


Salvation is now based on Grace, instead of race.

.

God has never been respect of persons even when the Gentiles had no covenant.
Salvation has been for all whether by prosecuting or the church of Jew and Gentile.

2. Salvation has never been according to the genealogy. If that was true then God wouldn't have made them repent.
The Jewish history shows their genealogy didn't help them be saved when they were disobedient or merely performing the law of Moses.

3. The Jews have to be purged in the time of Jacob's trouble to come back to God and they will be saved by the blood of the Lamb Revelation 151-2. They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb and they are Jewish tribulation saints.
Jerry kelso
 
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jgr

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1. Anti Semitism was mostly from the RCC down through the ages.
The Apostolic Doctrine to the extreme was the beginning of replacement theology because it put the RCC replacing Israel in their gifts and callings and based it on Matthew 16:19 about the Keys of the KoH which was not talking about the church, RCC or Protestant denominations.

2. Anti Semitic was throughout the RCC history and many times they killed because they thought they were doing God's will and pleasing him just like Saul of Tarsus before he got saved and was changed and named Paul 1 Timothy 1:11-13.

To reiterate, the RCC apostasized, and was/is not representative of the true Christian Church. Their persecutions (and anyone's) are not defensible. But they did accept ethnic Jews who converted to Catholic "Christianity", and so cannot be characterized as anti-Semitic, which is by definition anti-ethnic.

3. I do not believe in Israel national repentance because no one can define specifically the distinguishing characteristics which make one a qualifying Israelite. Ethnicity or any criteria other than faith and obedience do not qualify. The families of the earth are blessed through Christ who is the seed of Abraham and recipient of the promises (Gal. 3:16). All the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ (2 Cor. 1:20) who is the heir of all things (Heb. 1:1-2). All things means no exceptions, and thus includes the OT land promises, restoration promises, and all else. We who are in Christ are declared to be joint heirs with Him. There are no promises for anyone not in Christ.

4. God always preserves His remnant of faithful believers, and His truth. There is no enduring pretrib rapture doctrine in the true Christian Church for over 1800 years, thus it fails a basic test of Scriptural orthodoxy.

5. They were given the oracles, and those should have been instrumental in bringing them to Christ, but due to rebellion and rejection, they were not.

6. There is only one gospel, and it is the "gospel of everything": of the kingdom (Matt. 24:14), of God (Rom. 1:1), of Christ (Rom. 15:19), of salvation (Eph. 1:13), and of peace (Eph. 6:15). Paul curses anyone preaching any other gospel (Gal. 1:8).
 
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BABerean2

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Salvation has never been according to the genealogy.

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

Mat 1:1  The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 



Heel bone of crucified man
In a stone box, the only trace of crucifixion

.
 
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jerry kelso

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Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

Mat 1:1  The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 



Heel bone of crucified man
In a stone box, the only trace of crucifixion

.

1. John 1:18; Matthew 1.
Jesus was a Jew
Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20.
Salvation is attained by grace through through the finished work of Christ.
Don't confuse the two. Jerry Kelso
 
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BABerean2

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Salvation is attained by grace through through the finished work of Christ.
Don't confuse the two. Jerry Kelso

You do not have to worry about me confusing the two.

However, it is proponents of modern Dispensational Theology who advocate an eventual return to animal sacrifices, even though Hebrews 10:16-18 makes it clear that sacrifices are no longer needed.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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You do not have to worry about me confusing the two.

However, it is proponents of modern Dispensational Theology who advocate an eventual return to animal sacrifices, even though Hebrews 10:16-18 makes it clear that sacrifices are no longer needed.

.

Animal sacrifices in order to be saved? Who claims that?
That didn't work the first time that way and David proved that in Romans 4.
Revelation 15:1-2 They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb.
That is two gospels.
You are wrong again. Jerry kelso
 
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