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Featured MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The resurrection is gospel, you believe it or you don't. At the second coming the church is raised, the ones that are dead are resurrected, the ones who are alive are raptured in that was are translated without ever having died.

    The New Jerusalem isn't mutually exclusive with going to heaven, it's heaven coming here.

    What's more there is no such thing as a 'Rapturist', there is the hope of the resurrection and you either believe it or you don't.
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    jerry,

    You've seen some of Jesus' view of the Jewish perspective. Here's more:

    Matthew 23
    13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    If they "shut up the kingdom of heaven," what were they doing with the kingdom of God? Opening it up?

    14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

    15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

    17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

    18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

    19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

    20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

    21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

    22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

    25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

    26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

    27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

    28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

    30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

    31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.



    There is no greater adversary of sound doctrine than the "Jewish perspective."
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  3. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. The scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites and shutting the Jews up from the KoH meant they were misleading them by so they would believe them and their doctrines of men Matthew 15:9 instead of the Messiah's call to repentance for entrance into the KoH reign.
    They were also hypocrites for performing the law like alms, but just for show not heart Matthew 6:2.

    2. The Physical KoG is the whole universe. The physical earth is but an earthly sphere of the whole universe. In this respect they have most everything in common. But there are differences as well and you don't seem to understand that.

    3. The KoH Physical Earth had a beginning for God created it but the universe has always been.

    4. The KoH is out of harmony with the universal KoG not the other way around.

    5. The KoH reign is for a 1000 years not the rest of the universe.

    6. The KoH is about putting down all sin and rebellion so God will be all in al and so the whole universal KoG will be in complete harmony.
    Flesh and blood will not inherit the Physical KoG but it will inherit the KoH.

    7. Here is an example; the Country of the United States has fifty states.
    You name any state in the USA and they can be considered the USA by virtue of being part of the country.
    This doesn't mean there are no distinctions of a state separate from the Federal Government just because they are related as a country
    and it doesn't mean they are necessarily interchangeable.

    8. The spiritual rule comes from the Physical KoG where Christ reigns not from the earth.
    The spiritual rule in man's heart is the KoG not the KoH.
    The basic message of the KoH and the KoG was never preached to the church.
    The KoG is peace, joy and love in the Holy Ghost and we are translated into the kingdom of his dear son but never the KoH.
    The chapter ends up with the Jews rejection of Jesus and that there House would be left desolate which was prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24.
    V 39 Jesus said he wouldn't see the Jews again till they say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord which will be on earth in the KoH reign.

    9. Jews have as many wrong doctrines as do Gentiles. But they also have a proper perspective. So your point is mute.
    Why is it you think that those terms have or are interchangeable all the time? Jerry kelso
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    jerry,

    We've already seen that to repent and believe the gospel is to enter both the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 4:17), and the kingdom of God (Mark 1:15).

    What Scripture do you have for the remainder of your points?

    Do Christ's denunciations suggest that He thought they had a proper perspective?

    What I think is of no significance. What Scripture says is. And interchangeability is pervasive throughout Scripture, as seen in the exhaustive list which BAB2 posted the other day.
     
  5. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Matthew 8:10-12 is true. It has to be understood in the light of Matthew 22:1-13 and Matthew 25:31-46.

    2. Matthew 22:1-13 is a parable about a certain king which made a marriage for his son.
    The King sent his servants to bid people to come and they did not.
    They made light of it and they killed the servants.
    The King had his armies destroy them and burned up their cities.
    The King got his servants and said the wedding was ready and the servant were to bid others again to the wedding.
    They gathered everyone both bad and good so the wedding would have guests.
    One didn't have wedding garment on and was cast out to outer darkness etc.

    3. This leads to Matthew 25:31-46 which is the Judgement of the nations.
    These were Gentile nations and will be judged on their treatment of the Jewish nation during the tribulation.
    Notice there was many bad and good at the wedding but only one bad person didn't have wedding garment and they were cast out.
    This goes to show they will inherit the KoH if they had treated Israel right.
    Zechariah 8:23 says; Thus sainthood the Lord of hosts, In those days it shall come to pass that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    4. Psalm 2:9 says the Lord will rule with a rod of Iron and in Revelation 2:26-27 we the church will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
    If all are righteous in the millennial kingdom then there would be no reason to rule with a rod of iron and the last rebellion in Revelation 20:7-9 which is after the 1000 year reign ends and Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit would not happen, but it will.
    Jerry kelso
     
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. You are still missing the point because you make no distinctions at all.

    2. The Gospel of the spiritual aspect of the KoG is what they had to believe to be saved Matthew 6:33;Luke 17:20-21. Then they could gain entrance into the Physical KoH.

    3. Mark 1:15; the physical KoG was at hand because the physical KoH is an earthly sphere of the universal KoG. But they had to believe the gospel which was the spiritual aspect of the KoG Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20:21.

    4. Christ had the proper perspective of the Old Testament scriptures which was Jewish not the hypocrites.
    The Jewish nation were looking for a conquering Savior Luke 1:32-33;66:70 and not the suffering Savior Isaiah 53. They could only gain entrance into the KoH reign by repenting of their sin First and they didn't Matthew 23:37-39 and it was never prophesied that they would. But it was prophesied that he would be rejected and die and arie forevermore and the church was predestined to come Matthew 16:18 and it did and is still here today until we are raptured to Heaven before the tribulation and then will come the tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble which has always been synonymous with Israel because of the nations that oppressed her and will oppress her in the future Daniel 2&7; Revelation 17:10-11.

    5. Interchangeable is not exactly the best word for the physical KoH and the physical KoG universal in the big picture for there are differences between the two.
    Do you not believe that scripture reveals that? Let me know. Jerry kelso
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You forgot Matthew 21.

    Mat 21:37  Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 

    Mat 21:38  But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 

    Mat 21:39  So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 

    Mat 21:42  Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ? 
    Mat 21:43  "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
    (The nation who accepted the "chief cornerstone" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.)
     

    Mat 21:44  And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." 
    Mat 21:45  Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 

    .
     
  8. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. All those verses are true for the Jews did kill Jesus.
    Jesus was the chief cornerstone and the nation of Israel still stumbles at him today and that is hundreds of thousands of Jews are atheists and don't believe in Jesus as Messiah.
    The hypocrites like the Scribes and Pharisees were ground to powder.

    2. The KoG taken away from the Jewish nation and was given to the church of Jew and Gentile both.
    1 Peter 2:4-10 brings out Jewish New Covenant believers for the most part. Peter was mainly to the Jews and Paul was mainly to the Gentiles preaching the KoG which was the spiritual aspect and not the physical KoH Acts 28:31.
    The KoG is the spiritual aspect which concerns salvation.
    The KoG is Love, Joy, Peace in the Holy Ghost. It is the spiritual baptism and spiritual circumcision of the heart.
    It is not the Physical KoH or the physical KoG either one.
    I have always said this and it is the scriptural truth.
    The spiritual aspect of the KoG in Jesus day was the Gospel to believe in Messiah to forgive them of their sins for entrance into the KoH Matthew 4:17; 6:33; Luke 17:20-21. That was before the cross and before they even understood the Cross in God's plan to believe in it Matthew 16:21-23; John 6:53-70.
    It was not till after the Cross that they were preaching the Death, Burial, and Resurrection to be saved. Acts tells the story and that is what they got in trouble for Acts 4:2.

    3. The Jewish nation were the custodians for the gospel concerning salvation called the oracles of God Romans 3:2. They were to believe in Messiah and Repent Matthew 4:17. I have already explained this.
    The church is the custodian of the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of the New Covenant 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 today.

    4. In the millennial kingdom both the Church age saints and the Jewish nation will proclaim the Gospel.
    The nation of Israel will have David as King Ezekiel 37:24 and Messiah will rule the whole earth Isaiah 9:7 and from Zion the law will go forth Isaiah 2:2-4.
    Israel will be the custodians over the KoH and the families of the earth will be blessed by them Genesis 12:1-3 and the nations that did them wrong that are left shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to keep the feasts of tabernacles Zechariah 14:16. Jerry kelso
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    1Pe 2:4  Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 
    1Pe 2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 
    1Pe 2:6  Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME." 
    1Pe 2:7  Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE," 
    1Pe 2:8  and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 
    1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 
    1Pe 2:10  who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 



    Wrong, again.

    .
     
  10. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1 Peter is addressing Christian Jews for they were the ones that had been scattered 1 Peter 1:1-3.

    2. 1 Peter 2:9-10 show that the days of Hosea was true for backslidden Jews.
    Romans 9:25 shows the same thing.
    These Jews were a part of the church since they were saved.
    Even though Peter understood the church of Jews and Gentiles which was the mystery of the church was revealed to him Ephesians 3:5-6; he still knew that the KoH reign would come Acts 1:6-7; and in verse 11 he addresses them as strangers and pilgrims and tells those Christian Jews to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul.
    In verse 12; he tells those Christian Jews; Having your conversation honest among the GENTILES.
    You are wrong and are not understanding the full context and you keep assuming and perceiving gen you hear a scripture that has been given before means the same in every single context and of course your perception is off again because it causes your assumption to be wrong.
    You are wrong again and have no point about anything of full context. Jerry kelso
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your claim that 1 Peter is addressed only to Jews is complete nonsense, based on the text.


    1Pe 1:1  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 


    1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 
    1Pe 2:10  who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 
    1Pe 2:11  Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 
    1Pe 2:12  having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation. 

    .
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jerry Kelso said...

    "Peter is addressing Christian Jews for they were the ones that had been scattered 1 Peter 1:1-3.

    2. 1 Peter 2:9-10 show that the days of Hosea was true for backslidden Jews."

    "and in verse 11 he addresses them as strangers and pilgrims and tells those Christian Jews to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul."

    "In verse 12; he tells those Christian Jews..."


    I did not find the words "for the most part" in the post.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  13. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,
    It was post 288, point 2.
    Peter had a ministry of mainly Jews it doesn't mean there were no Gentiles.
    You have a short memory or don't pay attention.
    All you seem to want to do is try and prove me wrong and you haven't because I stay true to the full context. You should apologize or think before you write.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If you think modern Jews are going to be saved outside of the Church, you could not be more wrong.

    .
     
  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. You have no proof the church is in the tribulation.
    You say it is because they are called saints but that has no merit for Old Testament believers were called saints.

    2. You say the wheat and Tares must grow up together and that doesn't have any merit for the wheat and Tares represent that particular dispensation or age of believers and unbelievers. The believers are called tribulation saints for they have come out of Great Tribulation.

    3. You must think that because the Gentiles were grafted into the olive tree they cannot be separated at anytime which could not be true because the Spirit draws all men and there will be plenty of people who knew better but failed to live for God and will know to get right.
    Revelation 4&5 have the church already in Heaven.
    Revelation 6 have souls under the altar who will be martyred in the first half.
    There is no scripture that says the church will be martyred in the tribulation especially the time of Jacob's trouble which is synonymous with Israel and not the church.

    4. There is no context that mentions the church age saints in the Tribulation.
    There are saints who will be Gentiles and Jewish believers.

    5. Scripture shows the rapture as a mystery of which the Second Coming was not.
    Jesus said he went to prepare us mansions which we will live in before the tribulation and during the tribulation we receive rewards in Heaven and at the end right before the Day of the Lord we will be at the marriage of the lamb.
    After the the Day of the Lord we will begin to rule and reign on earth. We are being trained here right now.
    After the New Heaven and New Earth is created we will go back to Heaven and the Holy City will come down to earth. Jerry kelso
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    jerry,

    Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church, on earth:

    2 Corinthians 1:21-22

    Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

    Ephesians 1:13

    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30

    Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


    Being sealed is an operation which has applicability and relevance only on earth. In heaven, it has no further meaning or pertinence. Thus the description of the 144,000 as sealed denotes that they are present on earth, in the tribulation, in a state of having been and continuing to be sealed, until the day of redemption sees them in heaven.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 


    A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace found in Christ's Church.

    You can try to ignore it or explain it away, but a plain reading of the verse reveals those who are members of the Church.


    Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 

    Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

    Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 




    They are those who have been "sealed".


    Joh_6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


    Rom_15:28  When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.


    2Co_1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


    Eph_1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    Eph_4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


    Rev_7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


    They are the "firstfruits" of the Lamb.


    Rom 16:5  Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. 

    Rev 14:4  These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  18. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. Revelation 7:3-4; They are 144,000 Jews from the Jewish nation sealed for protection for they are already saved. This is not the present day church.
    They are raptured to Heaven as the firstfruits Revelation 14:1-5.

    2. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22: this seal is for salvation not protection to go through the trumpet judgements like the 144,000 Jews Revelation 7:3-8 and Revelation 9:4.

    3. Ephesians 1:13-14; This is about eternal life and the possession of Heaven not protection through the trumpets Revelation 7:3-8, 9:4.

    4. Ephesians 4:30; Once again this is about the day of redemption not protection through the trumpet judgements Revelation 7:3-8, 9:4.

    5. You are out of context of what the sealing is actually about.
    Start learning true context and not what your automatic perception is due to other passages in scripture that sound the same but are not. Jerry kelso
     
  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Just because the NC was inaugurated at Calvary and the NC began doesn't mean that the church age saints will have to be in the tribulation.

    2. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ John 1:18, not the Church.
    God works through obedient men but there will be obedient men that missed the raptured that will spread the word.

    3. The Souls under the altar are the first to be saved under the fifth seal. No doubt they will be from the first four seals.

    4. No mentioning of the church having to be martyred and the 144,000 Jews are the first to be witnesses which shows this is about the time of Jacob's trouble for Israel which has no connection to the church.
    God can use donkeys,stones and yes, the rapture to wake those in slumber.
    Our job as the church is to provoke the whole nation of Israel to believe in God now but it has not completely worked and will not and the rapture will begin to wake them up more but the chastisement of the Beast and his kingdom and knowing there nation will almost be snuffed out of existence will propel them to recognize the suffering Savior whom they crucified Revelation 1:7.
    If your spiritual Jew theory was correct there would be no reason for us to be in the time of Jacob's trouble for we are being trained right now for the Kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12.
    Give me a scripture that says the church today has to be purified by great tribulation in the time of Jacob's trouble. You can't! You can spiritualize and give your own opinion but not scriptural context. Jerry kelso
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  20. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Hebrews 12:22-24 has nothing to do with the church being or having to be in the tribulation.
    Tribulation saints will be sealed in order to be saved to.

    2. John 6:27; Roman's 15:28; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; Ephesians 4:30 are all true to the church age and tribulation age Christians for there is only one NC not because the church age saints have to be in the time of Jacob's trouble which has nothing to do with the church.

    3. Revelation 7:3; this is a seal for protection for they are already saved. Revelation 9:4 shows it was a mark of protection through the trumpet judgements.
    They are the firstfruits of the Lamb because they are the first raptured in the tribulation being from earth and among men Read Revelation 14:1-5.
    Romans 16:5 first to be saved in Achai.
    The 144,000 were not the first ones to be saved in the tribulation for the souls under the altar were.
    Revelation 14:4; they were redeemed among men. They were saved and the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb by way of rapture.
    The souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-11 were first to be saved but by martyrdom not rapture. Jerry kelso
     
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