MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

[jgr]

jgr,

1. Revelation 7:3-4; They are 144,000 Jews from the Jewish nation sealed for protection for they are already saved. This is not the present day church.
They are raptured to Heaven as the firstfruits Revelation 14:1-5.

2. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22: this seal is for salvation not protection to go through the trumpet judgements like the 144,000 Jews Revelation 7:3-8 and Revelation 9:4.

3. Ephesians 1:13-14; This is about eternal life and the possession of Heaven not protection through the trumpets Revelation 7:3-8, 9:4.

4. Ephesians 4:30; Once again this is about the day of redemption not protection through the trumpet judgements Revelation 7:3-8, 9:4.

5. You are out of context of what the sealing is actually about.
Start learning true context and not what your automatic perception is due to other passages in scripture that sound the same but are not. Jerry kelso

jerry,

I've said nothing about "protection", nor is there any mention or even implication of the word in any of the cited scriptures. The Church is not protected from tribulation; it experiences and endures it. The seal is the mark of its salvation and assurance of its destiny.



Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave usthe Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes, describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)


Also of significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.


Is 144,000 literal or symbolic? While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful, e.g. 1 Kings 19:18. Their number is thus depicted as 12, symbolizing the faithful saints within the 12 tribes; times 12, a scriptural symbol of completeness; times 1000, which when used symbolically denotes a large quantity (Psalms 50:10; 91:7; 2 Peter 3:8).


Revelation 14 continues the descriptions of the 144,000, further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile, consistent with other scripture:


Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Ephesians 2:14

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


Additional numerical symbolism relating to the Church can be found in the 12 apostles representing saints of the NT era.


No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

 

[jerry kelso]

jerry,

I've said nothing about "protection", nor is there any mention or even implication of the word in any of the cited scriptures. The Church is not protected from tribulation; it experiences and endures it. The seal is the mark of its salvation and assurance of its destiny.



Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave usthe Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes, describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)


Also of significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.


Is 144,000 literal or symbolic? While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful, e.g. 1 Kings 19:18. Their number is thus depicted as 12, symbolizing the faithful saints within the 12 tribes; times 12, a scriptural symbol of completeness; times 1000, which when used symbolically denotes a large quantity (Psalms 50:10; 91:7; 2 Peter 3:8).


Revelation 14 continues the descriptions of the 144,000, further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile, consistent with other scripture:


Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Ephesians 2:14

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


Additional numerical symbolism relating to the Church can be found in the 12 apostles representing saints of the NT era.


No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

jgr,

1. I didn't say you said anything about protection but the scripture says that in the wording that's says till the servants of God have been sealed. Revelation 7:3.
They were saved before being sealed.
Revelation 9:4 do not harm those who have the mark. The context is protection through the trumpet judgements before they are raptured Revelation 14:1-5.

2. You obviously don't comprehend very well. I have already debunked your trying to match up those scriptures you gave about sealing for salvation.
You are wrong, you just think they are right because about sealing.
This is is why you are just assuming that Revelation is the same because the other scriptures say that. You are wrong and that is why you don't understand context and correct exegesis.

3. The numerical symbolism has to do with completeness another of the church but the Jewish nation which is in the list of the tribes mentioned in Revelation 7.
The twelve tribes of Israel have nothing to with the church in them. You are spiritualizing and assuming wrong by allegorical type of interpreting.
The meaning of the phrases with each tribe have nothing to do with the present day church. If you think you better find stronger scriptural support. Right now it your opinion and subjective.
You need to learn correct hermeneutics and proper context and proper wording and proper exegesis and reconciling the scriptures together properly for the Bible to harmonize. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

all true to the church age and tribulation age Christians for there is only one NC not because the church age saints have to be in the time of Jacob's trouble which has nothing to do with the church.

The "Church Age" saints cannot be in "the time of Jacob's trouble", not because the Church comes to an end before the Second Coming of Christ, but because that time was during the captivity in Babylon, which occurred over 2,000 years ago.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

The "Church Age" saints cannot be in "the time of Jacob's trouble", not because the Church comes to an end before the Second Coming of Christ, but because that time was during the captivity in Babylon, which occurred over 2,000 years ago.

.

baberean2,

1. Give it up and quit being untruthful.
I have already shown you that is only half the truth because of Jeremiah 30:9 which is prophetic for David will be their King whom God will raise up.
David wasn't raised up in Jeremiah's day and you know it.

2. I have just read it again and there is no direct address about the Babylonian captivity at all.
Verse 3: For lo, the days come, that I WILL BRING AGAIN THE CAPTIVITY OF MY PEOPLE ISRAEL AND JUDAH AND I WILL CAUSE THEM TO RETURN TO THE LAND THAT I GAVE TO THEIR FATHERS AND THEY SHALL POSSESS IT.
This is talking about a future captivity from Babylon and they would return to their land and possess it which is future.
Verses 5 and 6 is the time of Jacob's trouble and Alas, for the day is great is significant with the Day of the Lord and they will be saved out of it and where and when the yoke will be broke off their necks and will bursts their bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him.
David being King will be after the time of Jacob's trouble and they will return and shall be in rest and be quiet and none shall make him afraid. This fits all future to the Day of the Lord.

3. Verse 11 God will make a full end to the nations that oppressed them.
Egypt and Assyria were the only nations that oppressed Israel before Babylon.
Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome were after Babylon.
All of these nations are still alive and well today and the Revised Roman Empire which will be the Ten horns Daniel 2:41-43; 7:7.
Daniel 7:8 is the Antichrist kingdom who is the beast that is of the seventh and also of the eighth Revelation 17:10-11.

4. Verse 3; bring again the captivity, returning to the land and possessing it is future to the Day of the Lord verse 7 when David will be raised up by the Lord as King over Israel which agrees with Ezekiel 37:24.
You are wrong again and always will be because you avoid the proper wording, the timing and plain statements.
You assume since it was written in Jeremiah's day it has to be about the Babylonian captivity.
Israel already knew the Babylonian captivity would last 70 years.
Jeremiah as a prophet and prophesied of the Day of the Lord just like Isaiah.
Isaiah would talk about the first coming of Messiah and turn all of a sudden talking about the Second Coming many times.
Either way you are wrong about the context of Jeremiah 30. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

I have just read it again and there is no direct address about the Babylonian captivity at all.

Jerry,

Maybe you did not notice the word "captivity" in much of the Book of Jeremiah.

And maybe you did not see the single "land" of captivity in chapter 30.

Did you get that ? "land", instead of "lands" ?


Jer_15:2　 And it shall be, if they say to you, 'Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Such as are for death, to death; And such as are for the sword, to the sword; And such as are for the famine, to the famine; And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity." '

Jer_20:6　 And you, Pashhur, and all who dwell in your house, shall go into captivity. You shall go to Babylon, and there you shall die, and be buried there, you and all your friends, to whom you have prophesied lies.' "

Jer_22:22　 The wind shall eat up all your rulers, And your lovers shall go into captivity; Surely then you will be ashamed and humiliated For all your wickedness.

Jer_29:14　 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

Jer_29:16　 therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king who sits on the throne of David, concerning all the people who dwell in this city, and concerning your brethren who have not gone out with you into captivity—

Jer_29:20　 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all you of the captivity, whom I have sent from Jerusalem to Babylon.

Jer_29:22　 And because of them a curse shall be taken up by all the captivity of Judah who are in Babylon, saying, "The LORD make you like Zedekiah and Ahab, whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire";

Jer_29:28　 For he has sent to us in Babylon, saying, 'This captivity is long; build houses and dwell in them, and plant gardens and eat their fruit.' "

Jer_29:31　 Send to all those in captivity, saying, Thus says the LORD concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite: Because Shemaiah has prophesied to you, and I have not sent him, and he has caused you to trust in a lie—

Jer_30:3　 For behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the LORD. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' "

Jer_30:10　 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
(The single "land" of their captivity, not "lands".)
Jer_30:16　 'Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured; And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; Those who plunder you shall become plunder, And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.

Jer_30:18　 "Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob's tents, And have mercy on his dwelling places; The city shall be built upon its own mound, And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.

Jer_31:23　 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "They shall again use this speech in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I bring back their captivity: 'The LORD bless you, O home of justice, and mountain of holiness!'

Jer_43:11　 When he comes, he shall strike the land of Egypt and deliver to death those appointed for death, and to captivity those appointed for captivity, and to the sword those appointed for the sword.

Jer_46:19　 O you daughter dwelling in Egypt, Prepare yourself to go into captivity! For Noph shall be waste and desolate, without inhabitant.

Jer_46:27　 "But do not fear, O My servant Jacob, And do not be dismayed, O Israel! For behold, I will save you from afar, And your offspring from the land of their captivity; Jacob shall return, have rest and be at ease; No one shall make him afraid.

Jer_48:7　 For because you have trusted in your works and your treasures, You also shall be taken. And Chemosh shall go forth into captivity, His priests and his princes together.

Jer_48:11　 "Moab has been at ease from his youth; He has settled on his dregs, And has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, Nor has he gone into captivity. Therefore his taste remained in him, And his scent has not changed.

Jer_49:3　 "Wail, O Heshbon, for Ai is plundered! Cry, you daughters of Rabbah, Gird yourselves with sackcloth! Lament and run to and fro by the walls; For Milcom shall go into captivity With his priests and his princes together.

Jer_52:31　 Now it came to pass in the thirty-seventh year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-fifth day of the month, that Evil-Merodach king of Babylon, in the first year of his reign, lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah and brought him out of prison.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

Maybe you did not notice the word "captivity" in much of the Book of Jeremiah.

And maybe you did not see the single "land" of captivity in chapter 30.

Did you get that ? "land", instead of "lands" ?


Jer_15:2　 And it shall be, if they say to you, 'Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Such as are for death, to death; And such as are for the sword, to the sword; And such as are for the famine, to the famine; And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity." '

Jer_20:6　 And you, Pashhur, and all who dwell in your house, shall go into captivity. You shall go to Babylon, and there you shall die, and be buried there, you and all your friends, to whom you have prophesied lies.' "

Jer_22:22　 The wind shall eat up all your rulers, And your lovers shall go into captivity; Surely then you will be ashamed and humiliated For all your wickedness.

Jer_29:14　 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

Jer_29:16　 therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king who sits on the throne of David, concerning all the people who dwell in this city, and concerning your brethren who have not gone out with you into captivity—

Jer_29:20　 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all you of the captivity, whom I have sent from Jerusalem to Babylon.

Jer_29:22　 And because of them a curse shall be taken up by all the captivity of Judah who are in Babylon, saying, "The LORD make you like Zedekiah and Ahab, whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire";

Jer_29:28　 For he has sent to us in Babylon, saying, 'This captivity is long; build houses and dwell in them, and plant gardens and eat their fruit.' "

Jer_29:31　 Send to all those in captivity, saying, Thus says the LORD concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite: Because Shemaiah has prophesied to you, and I have not sent him, and he has caused you to trust in a lie—

Jer_30:3　 For behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the LORD. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' "

Jer_30:10　 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
(The single "land" of their captivity, not "lands".)
Jer_30:16　 'Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured; And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; Those who plunder you shall become plunder, And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.

Jer_30:18　 "Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob's tents, And have mercy on his dwelling places; The city shall be built upon its own mound, And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.

Jer_31:23　 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "They shall again use this speech in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I bring back their captivity: 'The LORD bless you, O home of justice, and mountain of holiness!'

Jer_43:11　 When he comes, he shall strike the land of Egypt and deliver to death those appointed for death, and to captivity those appointed for captivity, and to the sword those appointed for the sword.

Jer_46:19　 O you daughter dwelling in Egypt, Prepare yourself to go into captivity! For Noph shall be waste and desolate, without inhabitant.

Jer_46:27　 "But do not fear, O My servant Jacob, And do not be dismayed, O Israel! For behold, I will save you from afar, And your offspring from the land of their captivity; Jacob shall return, have rest and be at ease; No one shall make him afraid.

Jer_48:7　 For because you have trusted in your works and your treasures, You also shall be taken. And Chemosh shall go forth into captivity, His priests and his princes together.

Jer_48:11　 "Moab has been at ease from his youth; He has settled on his dregs, And has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, Nor has he gone into captivity. Therefore his taste remained in him, And his scent has not changed.

Jer_49:3　 "Wail, O Heshbon, for Ai is plundered! Cry, you daughters of Rabbah, Gird yourselves with sackcloth! Lament and run to and fro by the walls; For Milcom shall go into captivity With his priests and his princes together.

Jer_52:31　 Now it came to pass in the thirty-seventh year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-fifth day of the month, that Evil-Merodach king of Babylon, in the first year of his reign, lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah and brought him out of prison.

.

Genesis 15:18-21: In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto the seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates.
Verse 19: The Kenites, and the Kennizites and the Kadmonites,
Verse 20: And the Hittites and the Perrizzites and the Rephaims,
Verse 21: And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the girgashites and the Jebusites.
Jeremiah 30:9 David will be raised up as King by the Lord is future and was not in Jeremiah's day. You can't disprove that so give up. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Jeremiah 30:9 David will be raised up as King by the Lord is future and was not in Jeremiah's day. You can't disprove that so give up. Jerry kelso

What did Peter say about who would sit on David's throne, on the Day of Pentecost?


Act 2:29　 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.　
Act 2:30　 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,　
Act 2:31　 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.　
Act 2:32　 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.　
Act 2:33　 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.　
Act 2:34　 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,　
Act 2:35　 TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL." '　
Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

　
King David committed adultery and conspired to have Uriah killed.
It is the fruit of David's loin's who has earned the right to sit on David's throne through His sacrifice at Calvary.

Either Peter is wrong or you are wrong...

.

 

[jerry kelso]

What did Peter say about who would sit on David's throne, on the Day of Pentecost?


Act 2:29　 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.　
Act 2:30　 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,　
Act 2:31　 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.　
Act 2:32　 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.　
Act 2:33　 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.　
Act 2:34　 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,　
Act 2:35　 TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL." '　
Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

　
King David committed adultery and conspired to have Uriah killed.
It is the fruit of David's loin's who has earned the right to sit on David's throne through His sacrifice at Calvary.

Either Peter is wrong or you are wrong...

.

baberean2,

Why do you keep trying to disprove the scriptural truth?

1. The Day of Pentecost was the day the church started not the millennial reign.

2. Christ was sworn to rule on David's throne Psalm 132:11.
This was typical of the Messiah having the right to David's throne of his office of his kingly position.
Hosea 3:5: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their King; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.
This is prophetic to the millennial kingdom when Israel will be regathered Ezekiel 37 and Israel and Judah made as one stick and David being the King of Israel Ezekiel 37:24.
Jesus will rule with a rod of Iron over the whole which is linked to David's throne because he is in his lineage Matthew 1 and because he is Messiah Isaiah 9:7.

3. Peter wasn't wrong but you are and you misunderstand Peter.

4. This passage and others are used by Catholics to prove the the 1000 years Millennial kingdom is right. They spiritualized the 1000 years, prop up their Apostolic Doctrine with Peter and make all the physical kingdom with Christ physically reigning on earth a farce and destroy the purpose of the 1000 year reign which is to put down all sin and rebellion and and that is why Christ has to rule and reign first 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
Verse 24 says he must rule and reign till he has put his enemies under his feet.
This will not happen until after the 1000 years Revelation 20:8-10 and death will be last which is after that last rebellion in verses 8-10.
So Peter is right and you are wrong because you don't exegete scripture properly. You go to much by your perception which is your opinion. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Hebrews 12:22-24 has nothing to do with the church

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

.

 

[jgr]

4. This passage and others are used by Catholics to prove the the 1000 years Millennial kingdom is right. They spiritualized the 1000 years...

Amillennialism long pre-dates the Catholics. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165), premil, regarding amils:

I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.

Amils and historic/classic premils have long coexisted amicably.

 

[jerry kelso]

Amillennialism long pre-dates the Catholics. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165), premil, regarding amils:

I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.

Amils and historic/classic premils have long coexisted amicably.

jgr,

1. All that matters is what the Bible truth is and that it is rightly divided.

2. I have never been against Christians with other schools of thought whether Catholic or Protestant Christians with differing views.
For example. I don't believe in Unconditional Eternal Security of Calvinism but I have plenty of friends who are dyed in the wool Calvinist.

3. As far as the 1000 year reign being now, it is not scriptural and is based on faulty hermeneutics.
You can be a Christian all your life and be stooped up by your hermeneutics and be wrong. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

All that matters is what the Bible truth is and that it is rightly divided.

 

[jerry kelso]

baberean2.

1. That is about the weakest argument I have heard against Dispensationalism.

2. He claims that Dispensations are divided up into sections and gives the perception that covenants are not even considered in that theology.
Even the Messianic Jews and Covenant Theologians understand the difference between the Old and New Covenants which shows they believe in dispensations though they won't mention it.
They both understand the distinctions between the physical Kingdom and the spiritual kingdom.

2. The physical KoH is separate from the physical KoG in many ways.
The physical KoH is earth and its reign on on earth.
The KoG and it s reign is the whole universe.
The Physical KoH as earth had a beginning but the universal KoG has, is and will be forever.
The Physical reign is temporary and political but the KoG reign is forever.
This earthly sphere is a small part of the universe so in parallel passages such as Mark 8 the KoH and the KoG have most all things in common.

3. The spiritual aspect of the KoH is things contains in the physical kingdom.
The spiritual aspect of the KoG is about receiving salvation Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20-21. The Jews were told to seek the KoG not the KoH.
The Jews were told the KoG came without observation not the KoH.
The church is taught the physical and spiritual things of the KoG but never once is the church taught the KoH.

4. Matthew is Jehovah's Gospel considering the physical KoH and the spiritual KoG to be saved.
Why is that so hard for you to understand? Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew is Jehovah's Gospel considering the physical KoH and the spiritual KoG to be saved.
Why is that so hard for you to understand? Jerry kelso

Maybe it is because the "Great Commission" to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.
I do understand that.

What you are claiming is another matter...
.

 

[jerry kelso]

Maybe it is because the "Great Commission" to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.
I do understand that.

What you are claiming is another matter...
.

baberean,

1. Every Jew knew Jesus was offering the Physical Kingdom reign on earth with the Jews at the head of the nations when he said, Repent for the KoH is at hand.
The only way to be saved for the Jew was to believe in the Messiah and that he would forgive them of their sins period!
This was according to the term the KoG in its spiritual aspect according to Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20. They were mere told to seek the KoH or that the KoH came without observation. This is the spiritual rule of God in men's hearts.

2. The church was never taught the KoH message and being at the head of the nations by way of being purged from sin through Jacob's trouble.
The church will be rulers in the KoH reign but we will not have to be purged from sin to receive it.
We are being trained right now for it.

3. The KoH is taught to the Jews all through the Old Testament and is not a message for the church in that exact context and that is why the Church was not taught that message.
The KoG for the church age is basically salvation; the KoG is love, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost and translated into the kingdom of his dear son.
The Kingdom of his dear son and the KoG are for this age and mean the same thing spiritual.
There is no KoH that is taught to the church. The term was only used in Jesus ministry under the Mosaic law of the Old Covenant. Jerry kelso

 

[jgr]

1. Every Jew knew Jesus was offering the Physical Kingdom reign on earth with the Jews at the head of the nations when he said, Repent for the KoH is at hand.

Then why did Jesus refuse to be made king?

John 6
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

 

[jerry kelso]

Then why did Jesus refuse to be made king?

John 6
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

1. The whole nation has to be saved not just a few. Romans 11:26.

2. They had to repent and be saved from their sins before they could gain entrance into the kingdom Matthew 4:17.

3. John 6:14-15; they wanted to make him a conquering king to overcome the Roman oppression and was not desiring to be saved from sin. John 6:26-29.
The rest of the chapter shows there hearts were not as willing to be saved V41.
Matthew 23:37-39 is the final rejection. Salvation was always the condition for entrance into the kingdom for the whole nation. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The KoH is taught to the Jews all through the Old Testament and is not a message for the church in that exact context and that is why the Church was not taught that message.

What you are promoting here is a form of Dual-Covenant Theology, based on race.

Pastor John Hagee has taught something similar to this in the past.
It is extremely dangerous.

In Matthew 3:9 John the Baptist told his own people not to put any confidence in being the seed of Abraham.

In John chapter 8 Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father the devil when they claimed to be Abraham's seed.

In 1 Timothy 1:4 we are warned against using endless genealogies in our faith.
This is exactly what you are now doing, by making God a respecter of persons, based on race.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain forest and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the Middle East.
They both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

 

[jerry kelso]

What you are promoting here is a form of Dual-Covenant Theology, based on race.

Pastor John Hagee has taught something similar to this in the past.
It is extremely dangerous.

In Matthew 3:9 John the Baptist told his own people not to put any confidence in being the seed of Abraham.

In John chapter 8 Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father the devil when they claimed to be Abraham's seed.

In 1 Timothy 1:4 we are warned against using endless genealogies in our faith.
This is exactly what you are now doing, by making God a respecter of persons, based on race.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain forest and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the Middle East.
They both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

baberean2,

1. In Matthew 3:9 was the same type of situation in the Ezekiel passages like Ezekiel 18:4.
The Jews thought they were qualified to get into the KoH, be saved and be blessed just because they were God's chosen people. God and John and Jesus told them they were wrong.
God told the Jews he would remember their righteousness no more if they didn't Repent and he would save the wicked if they Repent though they didn't have the covenants.
The Jews got mad and said God was unfair and God said he was fair and equal.
The Jews understood the covenants as God's chosen people were to be at the head of the nations which was an eternal covenant but they didn't want to repent.
Israel will never have the Kingdom until they Repent which will happen in that generation in the time of Jacob's trouble in the Great Tribulation and it will be all the nation.
2. In John 8, they were still Abraham's seed physically but not spiritually and that is what John meant and he knew their genealogy would not save them.

3. 1 Timothy 1:4 is what the sinful Jews used and there are some sinful Gentiles do the same type of secretarian thing which say one can't be saved unless they are a member of their denomination and that is not right.

4. I or John Hagee make no respect of persons for there is no difference between a Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ.
You are falsely accusing John Hagee and me though we have said the opposite and that is wrong.

5. The reason you make the accusation is because you believe in your extreme spiritual Jew theory that the present church has to be in the time of Jacob's trouble so the Jews will become jealous and get saved. If you believe that you believe in essence it will take us for the Jews to be saved.
There is no where in Revelation it says that the present church of today is in the tribulation alive and well and being witnesses for God and gets martyred.

6. There will be Gentile and Jews that will become saved in the tribulation but there is no indication of the present day church being there to help save them.

7. Church is used in different contexts like the church in the wilderness or the Old Testament church or the New Testament or the the Church of God or Christ.
In Revelation there is no mention of the word church in the time of Jacob's trouble.

8. Your issue is using genealogy to be saved and dispensationsationalists don't do that.
If not for the Spirit to draw all men to him and God's unmerited favor called grace nobody would be saved.
Israel will have to be saved by the blood of the Lamb before they can enter the KoH reign and it won't because of the present day church but by God.
The reason all of Israel will be saved is believing in the suffering Savior Revelation 1:7.
The reason all Israel will be saved if because their nation will almost be extinct and has to be made a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:7-9.
The reason all Israel will be saved is to fulfill their ETERNAL COVENANTS PROMISED TO THEM SPECIFICALLY.
Just because the church was the fruition for all Mankind to be saved doesn't nullify Israel fulfilling it's covenants which God says will come to pass.
You are wrong about me and John Hagee using genealogies in order for them to be saved.
You are also wrong that Israel will not inherit the land at the head of the nations for the Law will go out of Zion and nations will have tome to Israel to celebrate feasts which are synonymous with Israel not the present day church.
Quit putting words into my mouth and others that are not true. Why do you keep doing that? Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. In Matthew 3:9 was the same type of situation in the Ezekiel passages like Ezekiel 18:4.
The Jews thought they were qualified to get into the KoH, be saved and be blessed just because they were God's chosen people. God and John and Jesus told them they were wrong.
God told the Jews he would remember their righteousness no more if they didn't Repent and he would save the wicked if they Repent though they didn't have the covenants.
The Jews got mad and said God was unfair and God said he was fair and equal.
The Jews understood the covenants as God's chosen people were to be at the head of the nations which was an eternal covenant but they didn't want to repent.
Israel will never have the Kingdom until they Repent which will happen in that generation in the time of Jacob's trouble in the Great Tribulation and it will be all the nation.
2. In John 8, they were still Abraham's seed physically but not spiritually and that is what John meant and he knew their genealogy would not save them.

3. 1 Timothy 1:4 is what the sinful Jews used and there are some sinful Gentiles do the same type of secretarian thing which say one can't be saved unless they are a member of their denomination and that is not right.

4. I or John Hagee make no respect of persons for there is no difference between a Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ.
You are falsely accusing John Hagee and me though we have said the opposite and that is wrong.

5. The reason you make the accusation is because you believe in your extreme spiritual Jew theory that the present church has to be in the time of Jacob's trouble so the Jews will become jealous and get saved. If you believe that you believe in essence it will take us for the Jews to be saved.
There is no where in Revelation it says that the present church of today is in the tribulation alive and well and being witnesses for God and gets martyred.

6. There will be Gentile and Jews that will become saved in the tribulation but there is no indication of the present day church being there to help save them.

7. Church is used in different contexts like the church in the wilderness or the Old Testament church or the New Testament or the the Church of God or Christ.
In Revelation there is no mention of the word church in the time of Jacob's trouble.

8. Your issue is using genealogy to be saved and dispensationsationalists don't do that.
If not for the Spirit to draw all men to him and God's unmerited favor called grace nobody would be saved.
Israel will have to be saved by the blood of the Lamb before they can enter the KoH reign and it won't because of the present day church but by God.
The reason all of Israel will be saved is believing in the suffering Savior Revelation 1:7.
The reason all Israel will be saved if because their nation will almost be extinct and has to be made a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:7-9.
The reason all Israel will be saved is to fulfill their ETERNAL COVENANTS PROMISED TO THEM SPECIFICALLY.
Just because the church was the fruition for all Mankind to be saved doesn't nullify Israel fulfilling it's covenants which God says will come to pass.
You are wrong about me and John Hagee using genealogies in order for them to be saved.
You are also wrong that Israel will not inherit the land at the head of the nations for the Law will go out of Zion and nations will have tome to Israel to celebrate feasts which are synonymous with Israel not the present day church.
Quit putting words into my mouth and others that are not true. Why do you keep doing that? Jerry kelso