Millennialism is no longer part of Christianity

[redleghunter]

Hi that is weird, I wrote my answer in a word doc pasted it and saw all my text then posted it and only a couple lines appeared. Ill try again.

Hi the Nicean creed is in contradiction with the scriptures. Dave has been vocal on this topic and makes an interesting point, “Some of us know because faith comes from hearing the word. You cannot have faith based on theory or conjecture. “ Then all of Dave's observations are made based on theory and conjecture. In the 1st advent of Jesus all the prophecy of Zechariah were literal such as coming on the foal of a donkey and being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. So when someone points out Zech 14 and the MT of Olives splitting in two; is a metaphor? Is it really a metaphor that creates a new valley too with specific boundaries and that create a new river that flows in very specific directions, also flowing year round? Dave's theory is that the new covenant replaces Israel with the church and his conjecture is all the prophecy is now irrelevant and now a metaphor. He accuses those who take the scriptures literal of trying to force all these prophecies into the gap in Daniels 70th week to mean the tribulation and and Daniels 70th week are still future. You are forcing these same prophecies into your theory that the kingdom is already and they are not relevant anymore. Your claim that the 70th week is future has not scriptural support is laughable in that 100's of unfulfilled prophecies and a timeline in scripture are the main supports. Revelation warns not to ad to the book or take away from the book. You are claiming to have special glasses that Revelation says Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations are not deceived for 1000 years and the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire for a 1000 years and those beheaded be the anitchrist for refusing the mark of the beast live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years does not mean exactly what it says. You are forcing an allegorical view to fit your kingdom, new covenant theory. We do however agree on salvation is through the new covenant only.
The book of Daniels chapter 2 describes the coming of the kingdom age as a stone cut without hands descending and then destroying and leaving no trace of man’s kingdoms and then becoming a mountain (kingdom) that covers the whole earth and this kingdom will have no end. Rev says Satan will be bound for 1000 years and the nations who were deceived will not be deceived again for the whole 1000 years. In Zech 14 on the day that the MT of Olives splits in two it is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and a day in which the LORD melts his enemies. On this day it is also dark in the day and light at night. On this day the LORD is declared king over all the earth. Dan 2 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. You see the kingdom starts at the 2nd coming depicted in Zech 14 and this kingdom is not a 1000 year reign but an eternal one. Jesus reign is not interrupted at the end of the 1000 years; He is still ruling and reigning when the New Jerusalem comes down.

Scripture establishes the timeline for us. Daniel 7 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings. 25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time. 26 But the judgment shall be set, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. This passage in Daniels puts the kingdom at the end of a time when an evil one rises and has power for a time, times and half a time. This is in sinc with Revelation given the beast dominion for 42 months. If you observe the destruction in Zech 14 Jerusalem is over run when the LORD saves them. If you look at the and of the 1000 years when Satan is released he musters and army surround the city and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. The nations have never been more deceived then now and Satan has never been bound. The kingdom will come and follow the timeline set in the law and prophets and New Testament. They are in harmony and without contradiction.

Parting shot those who deny the millennium and take Dave's method and have the church replacing Israel in the covenants and prophecies and see no significance with Israel being in the land again and their moves towards restoring the daily sacrifices: The literal view sees the soon return of the Temple and daily

sacrifice as the stage set for the literal antichrist to come and commit the abomination of desolation in. Reality is lining up with the literal view as the world is moving towards a global government that is completely opposed to Biblical truth. The nation of Israel will be divided and the preparations for the return of the sacrifice are all made. The current events line up with a literal view of scripture. At any rate all of us be repented of our sins and be sharing the good news of the cross.

I’m glad you pointed out the Messianic prophesies Jesus fulfilled literally. There are a host of them.

Good list here:

https://www.scripturecatholic.com/messianic-prophecies-fulfilled-jesus-christ/

 

[Erik Nelson]

Indeed and literally fulfilled through Isaiah 61:2a.

Will the remainder of this Messianic prophecy be fiulfilled literally as well?

"rebuilding" is echoed in Amos 9 = Acts 15

all of the references to "Zion", "Davidic kingdom", "Israel", "[Promised] Land", "Canaan" etc. all apply to the Church, which, in Christ's Name, restores & fulfills the Davidic Messianic Kingdom promises (from a Christian perspective)

 

[redleghunter]

"rebuilding" is echoed in Amos 9 = Acts 15

all of the references to "Zion", "Davidic kingdom", "Israel", "[Promised] Land", "Canaan" etc. all apply to the Church, which, in Christ's Name, restores & fulfills the Davidic Messianic Kingdom promises (from a Christian perspective)

So your answer is yes Jesus literally fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 61:1-2a but the remainder of the prophecy will not be literally fulfilled.

 

[FireDragon76]

This is pure conjecture if cut loose from Christ's definition of the kingdom. Learn what that is first, then make Revelation conform to it.

Cities coming down from heaven should not necessarily be understood literally. It's imagery meant to interpret a reality that was present for the author. "Apocalypse" has to do with revealing the significance of the present situation using symbols.

It's sort of like how N.T. Wright and other scholars have objected to 19th and 20th century critics who dismiss Jesus as a failed prophet because his Olivet Discourse "didn't happen", space-time did not end. It's failing to understand that Jewish apocalyptic imagery was not necessarily understood literally.

I understand the term basileia to mean "reign". It's not something restricted to a particular place as when we use the word "kingdom", it has more to do with the idea of a regime or governance, as in the German word Reich (and actually this is how the Lord's Prayer was translated into Germanic languages).

 

[FireDragon76]

"rebuilding" is echoed in Amos 9 = Acts 15

all of the references to "Zion", "Davidic kingdom", "Israel", "[Promised] Land", "Canaan" etc. all apply to the Church, which, in Christ's Name, restores & fulfills the Davidic Messianic Kingdom promises (from a Christian perspective)

That's how Christians traditionally understood it. All those old English and American hymns about "Zion" are not referring to the modern Jewish state of Israel, but the "People of God", the Church. That may or may not include Jews.

Dispensationalism eviscerates a great deal of traditional Christian spirituality and focuses on salvation in a narrow, individualistic sense.

 

[Erik Nelson]

So your answer is yes Jesus literally fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 61:1-2a but the remainder of the prophecy will not be literally fulfilled.

you accept that Isaiah 61:1-2a applies to Christians = "spiritual Israel" ?

 

[redleghunter]

you accept that Isaiah 61:1-2a applies to Christians = "spiritual Israel" ?

It applies to Messiah who is savior for both Jew and Gentile (Greek).

However, the question addressed literal fulfillment. You stated yes, the first 1.5 verses were literally fulfilled. I asked about the remainder of the Messianic prophecy yet to be fulfilled and the promises associated.

 

[Biblewriter]

The only way to even defend amill is to claim that a very large number of scriptures which are explicitly stated in clear, plain, language simply do not mean what they so very clearly say.

And to pretend that amill is simply believing the Bible is utter nonsense.

Further, it is totally incorrect to imagine that the early church fathers were anything but chilists. Chilism was clearly taught by Papias, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Commodianus, Lactantius, Apollinaris, and Nepos.

Chilism does not even imply that the kingdom of God will have an end. Rather, it teaches that Satan will be allowed to lead a rebellion at the end of the thousand years, but that this rebellion will be crushed. So the revisions to the Nicean creed made at Constantinople do not even effect chilism.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The only way to even defend amill is to claim that a very large number of scriptures which are explicitly stated in clear, plain, language simply do not mean what they so very clearly say.

And to pretend that amill is simply believing the Bible is utter nonsense.

Further, it is totally incorrect to imagine that the early church fathers were anything but chilists. Chilism was clearly taught by Papias, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Commodianus, Lactantius, Apollinaris, and Nepos.

Chilism does not even imply that the kingdom of God will have an end. Rather, it teaches that Satan will be allowed to lead a rebellion at the end of the thousand years, but that this rebellion will be crushed. So the revisions to the Nicean creed made at Constantinople do not even effect chilism.

In the early third century, Hippolytus of Rome wrote:

And 6,000 years must needs be accomplished, in order that the Sabbath may come, the rest, the holy day "on which God rested from all His works." For the Sabbath is the type and emblem of the future kingdom of the saints, when they "shall reign with Christ," when He comes from heaven, as John says in his Apocalypse: for "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years." Since, then, in six days God made all things, it follows that 6, 000 years must be fulfilled. (Hippolytus. On the HexaËmeron, Or Six Days' Work. From Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture).
​

6000 years from creation, which is 5500 BC in the Septuagint, implies an expected Millennium spanning approximately 500 to 1500 AD.

 

[Biblewriter]

In the early third century, Hippolytus of Rome wrote:

And 6,000 years must needs be accomplished, in order that the Sabbath may come, the rest, the holy day "on which God rested from all His works." For the Sabbath is the type and emblem of the future kingdom of the saints, when they "shall reign with Christ," when He comes from heaven, as John says in his Apocalypse: for "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years." Since, then, in six days God made all things, it follows that 6, 000 years must be fulfilled. (Hippolytus. On the HexaËmeron, Or Six Days' Work. From Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture).
​

6000 years from creation, which is 5500 BC in the Septuagint, implies an expected Millennium spanning approximately 500 to 1500 AD.

It was the standard doctrine of the early church, before they had veered so very far from doctrines based on the Bible.

 

[Biblewriter]

I am amazed by the people who dare to say that the Bible does not teach what it explicitly says.

While only Revelation 20 says that the future earthly kingdom will last a thousand years (although it explicitly says that six times over) this future earthly kingdom is the central subject of many chapters of the Bible. Those who are denying that it will take place are denying a very large amount of explicitly stated scripture. They are giving more credence to their interpretations of the meaning of a relatively small number of passages of scripture (which never actually say what they claim they mean) than they give to the explicitly statements of a far larger number of scriptures (which they claim do not mean what they actually say.)

 

[Dave L]

The Millennium is a Pharisee doctrine refuted many times by Jesus in the gospels.

MILLENNIUM: MILLENNIUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram

Table of Contents

Messianic Period an Interregnum.

Found in Revelation.

Messianic Period an Interregnum.

The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.

 

[Biblewriter]

So - You appeal to JEWISH scholars to disprove what the New Testament EXPLICITLY says?

 

[Dave L]

So - You appeal to JEWISH scholars to disprove what the New Testament EXPLICITLY says?

Jesus is Amillennial. Millennialism is Pharisaic.

 

[Biblewriter]

It would be far more accurate for you to say that you interpret the words of Jesus to be Amillennial. Your claim that the Bible does not state a millennium is demonstrably incorrect. It explicitly states it. You chose to interpret those words as symbolic. But that does not change what it says.

 

[dqhall]

It would be far more accurate for you to say that you interpret the words of Jesus to be Amillennial. Your claim that the Bible does not state a millennium is demonstrably incorrect. It explicitly states it. You chose to interpret those words as symbolic. But that does not change what it says.

Some people brought a woman caught in the act of adultery to Jesus. The scripture required that she should be stoned. Jesus told them that he who was without guilt should cast the first stone. They started to leave. Jesus did not condemn her either. He told her to go and sin no more. In this case righteousness was proven better than scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus is Amillennial. Millennialism is Pharisaic.

Jesus spent 40 days with the apostles (and many others) after His Resurrection and before His Ascension.

Yet right before going up into Glory, the apostles asked a very millennial question.

Acts 1: NASB

6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

 

[Dave L]

Jesus spent 40 days with the apostles (and many others) after His Resurrection and before His Ascension.

Yet right before going up into Glory, the apostles asked a very millennial question.

Acts 1: NASB

6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

But how did he answer? With the same phraseology he uses for the end of the world that only the Father knows the time of.

 

[redleghunter]

But how did he answer? With the same phraseology he uses for the end of the world that only the Father knows the time of.

Jesus was focusing them on what He needed them to do THEN. He did not dismiss their question as invalid but not timely given the task at hand...The Great Commission.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus was focusing them on what He needed them to do THEN. He did not dismiss their question as invalid but not timely given the task at hand...The Great Commission.

But his answer mirrors his answer about earth's last day.