Millennialism is no longer part of Christianity

[redleghunter]

The 1000 years = Satan's binding. Not the Kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years expire.

Maybe we should review the actual sequence of Revelation 19-20:

Revelation 19 is the second coming of Christ to Earth.
Revelation 20:1-3 satan bound for a 1000 years
Revelation 20:4-6 the resurrection of the just and the reign of Christ on earth for a 1000 years.
Revelation 20:7-10 satan released, the war and the defeat of the unrighteous.
Revelation 20:11-15 Great White Throne (GWT) Judgement and those not found in the Book of Life thrown in the Lake of Fire.

And this is what Revelation 20 actually says:

Revelation 20: NASB
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Dave L]

Maybe we should review the actual sequence of Revelation 19-20:

Revelation 19 is the second coming of Christ to Earth.
Revelation 20:1-3 satan bound for a 1000 years
Revelation 20:4-6 the resurrection of the just and the reign of Christ on earth for a 1000 years.
Revelation 20:7-10 satan released, the war and the defeat of the unrighteous.
Revelation 20:11-15 Great White Throne (GWT) Judgement and those not found in the Book of Life thrown in the Lake of Fire.

And this is what Revelation 20 actually says:

Revelation 20: NASB
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is pure conjecture if cut loose from Christ's definition of the kingdom. Learn what that is first, then make Revelation conform to it.

 

[redleghunter]

If you define the Kingdom according to Jesus, and make Revelation 20 conform to it, you will understand Revelation 20.

This is an error in exegesis. You don't take one portion of Scriptures and 'make it conform' to another portion of Holy Scriptures. You take that verse or passage and draw out the meaning within historical context, considering the audience and much more etc. Then you compare it with other portions of Holy Scriptures on the same subject.

 

[redleghunter]

This is pure conjecture if cut loose from Christ's definition of the kingdom. Learn what that is first, then make Revelation conform to it.

Again you don't 'make' one portion of Holy Scriptures conform to another. You harmonize as God is not a God of confusion and His words have no contradictions.

Go ahead, please show us the definition of Kingdom as you state Jesus defined it, and I will gladly show you that you are the one causing the tension and not others.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I consider Chialism to be quite erroneous, but I won't condemn a person for being a Chialist; as I figure I'd have to also condemn some of the holy fathers who believed that way as well. Instead I believe those fathers who held to this view were mistaken on this matter, but not on the outside of the Church catholic.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[redleghunter]

Good morning brother.

Do you see in this quote the necessity of a kingdom on earth as it is now, with all the righteous resurrected, ruling for 1000 years after which Satan is to be released and a Great War? Or some other interpretation?

I'm just curious.

We of course accept St. Iranaeus. But our expectation is of a renewed earth on which our glorified bodies received at the Resurrection will live, and God with us. I agree that our expectation is not to be forever in heaven (though souls that depart may go there before the resurrection of the body).

Just curious how you read this since you seem to cite it in support of modern millennialism? Or do I misunderstand?

God be with you.

I believe Irenaeus had the order of future events correct and he applied proper Biblical exegesis to the various passages.

"kingdom on earth as it is now?" I think Irenaeus addressed this no?

For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: For the expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Romans 8:19, etc. (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32.1)​

If your question is I buy lock, stock and barrel the Dispensationalist view of things to come, my answer is no. Similar to @2PhiloVoid I like to look at all the various views in respect to the posters presenting. I will challenge those approaching the subject dogmatically.

I think it is important to look at eschatology as the NT church did (see Acts 1:6-7) and also the post or sub-apostolic age as they understood it as well. It was not until the 4th century AD where we get a strong amillennialist view of eschatology. Yet even strong amillennialists like Jerome indicated orthodox theologians and martyrs held to millennialism:

Jerome was opposed to a literal, earthly kingdom: “The saints will in no wise have an earthly kingdom, but only a celestial one; thus must cease the fable of one thousand years.”20 Even so, Jerome admitted the premillennial view was held by many: “The evidence in favor of the general perpetuation of the doctrine is strengthened by the concessions of those who were among the first and most bitter opposers. Thus e.g. Jerome (Com. on Jes., 19:10), says: ‘that he durst not condemn the (Millennial) doctrine, because many ecclesiastical persons and martyrs affirm the same.’ ”21 (https://www.biblestudytools.com/com...e-millennial-kingdom-in-the-early-church.html)
Foot note 21: Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, 1:484.​

I take it the early church was a bit more accepting of various views as we are now.

 

[Dave L]

Again you don't 'make' one portion of Holy Scriptures conform to another. You harmonize as God is not a God of confusion and His words have no contradictions.

Go ahead, please show us the definition of Kingdom as you state Jesus defined it, and I will gladly show you that you are the one causing the tension and not others.

But Jesus says the kingdom is spiritual, comes without observation, is in your midst, is eternal, is here now, only the born again can enter it, and only the born again can see it.

If you make it a physical kingdom, you reject his word and make it an object of sight even the wicked can enter, and not a kingdom of faith.

 

[Dave L]

This is an error in exegesis. You don't take one portion of Scriptures and 'make it conform' to another portion of Holy Scriptures. You take that verse or passage and draw out the meaning within historical context, considering the audience and much more etc. Then you compare it with other portions of Holy Scriptures on the same subject.

No, forcing a literal interpretation on symbols is the error in exegesis. Do you expect to see any red dragons floating around in space any time soon?

 

[redleghunter]

I use the recapitulation view of Revelation.

I believe this is also called the eclectic hermeneutic. Which if so modifies the grammatical-historical approach.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe Irenaeus had the order of future events correct and he applied proper Biblical exegesis to the various passages.

"kingdom on earth as it is now?" I think Irenaeus addressed this no?

For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: For the expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Romans 8:19, etc. (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32.1)​

If your question is I buy lock, stock and barrel the Dispensationalist view of things to come, my answer is no. Similar to @2PhiloVoid I like to look at all the various views in respect to the posters presenting. I will challenge those approaching the subject dogmatically.

I think it is important to look at eschatology as the NT church did (see Acts 1:6-7) and also the post or sub-apostolic age as they understood it as well. It was not until the 4th century AD where we get a strong amillennialist view of eschatology. Yet even strong amillennialists like Jerome indicated orthodox theologians and martyrs held to millennialism:

Jerome was opposed to a literal, earthly kingdom: “The saints will in no wise have an earthly kingdom, but only a celestial one; thus must cease the fable of one thousand years.”20 Even so, Jerome admitted the premillennial view was held by many: “The evidence in favor of the general perpetuation of the doctrine is strengthened by the concessions of those who were among the first and most bitter opposers. Thus e.g. Jerome (Com. on Jes., 19:10), says: ‘that he durst not condemn the (Millennial) doctrine, because many ecclesiastical persons and martyrs affirm the same.’ ”21 (https://www.biblestudytools.com/com...e-millennial-kingdom-in-the-early-church.html)
Foot note 21: Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, 1:484.​

​

Thank you. Just curious about your interpretation in putting forth the quote, since I think it's possible to see complete agreement in it without understanding a millennial kingdom.

As for myself - I find it less than beneficial spiritually to wrangle over (especially) beginnings and endings. So that wasn't my intent.

I take it the early church was a bit more accepting of various views as we are now.

Various views at various times - perhaps. I think by logical necessity at times, depending on just which views we are talking about.

 

[Dave L]

I believe this is also called the eclectic hermeneutic. Which if so modifies the grammatical-historical approach.

I don't think so. Because if you look at what the symbols represent instead of looking for the symbols to appear, you can see Antichrist as early as the 1st century. And Throughout history in totalitarian regimes and churches .

 

[redleghunter]

But Jesus says the kingdom is spiritual, comes without observation, is in your midst, is eternal, is here now, only the born again can enter it, and only the born again can see it.

More concretely, Jesus said:

John 18: NASB
33Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” 34Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?” 35Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?” 36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” 38Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?”

If you make it a physical kingdom, you reject his word and make it an object of sight even the wicked can enter, and not a kingdom of faith.

Which your proposition above creates a false dichotomy as there can and are other options.

As I quoted above, Jesus is speaking with Pilate in 1st Century AD and Jesus clearly tells him that His kingdom is not of this world and then specifies at the end of verse 36 'not of this realm.' In Revelation 19 Jesus defeats the beast, false prophet and their armies (the nations) and fulfills the prophecy of all His enemies will be His footstool. The King has defeated the kingdoms of this world and is sole King of kings and Lord of lords. The King has returned to earth (Revelation 19) and has established His rule on Earth.

Psalm 110: NASB
1The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

3Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.

4The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5The Lord is at Your right hand;
He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.

6He will judge among the nations,
He will fill them with corpses,
He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.

7He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He will lift up His head.

Acts 2: NASB
32“This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

34“For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

35UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’
36“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Revelation 5: NASB
9And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”


So yes, currently our realm (the world) is under the 'lordship' of Satan and stained with sin and death. That all changes with the Coming of the Conquering King Jesus Christ where all things on earth and heaven will be summed up in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1: NASB
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

And of course:

Matthew 6: NASB
9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

11‘Give us this day our daily bread.

12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]

 

[redleghunter]

No, forcing a literal interpretation on symbols is the error in exegesis.

Applying symbols where there are none is an error period. Why would we think the 1000 years is a symbol? And symbols lead us to a concrete reality. Therefore, what is the 1000 years representing when referring to the kingdom on earth?

Yes Revelation is chock full of apocalyptic language and symbols. However, there are many portions which are not and the portions which are symbolic there is usually an explanation. How do you handle Revelation 19? Is that not the Second coming of Christ to earth as conquering King as prophesied in Zechariah 14:

Zechariah 14: NASB
9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

10All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. 11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

12Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. 13It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. 14Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. 15So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.

16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Maybe I should ask you the question whether or not you see the second coming of Christ as a literal event with Him coming as conquering King.

Do you expect to see any red dragons floating around in space any time soon?

Ah, the red dragon elicits a red herring from you. Revelation 12 uses the words "a sign from Heaven" when referring to the woman, child and dragon. Let's look at the text.

Revelation 12: NASB
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

The text clearly denotes this as a sign. Not a literal dragon but a sign.

σημεῖον sēmeîon, say-mi'-on; neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally:—miracle, sign, token, wonder.
G4519 semeion​

I won't stop there. The 'sign' is explained and identifies the 'red dragon':

7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

No guess work there. The red dragon is explained in the very same passage as Satan, the serpent of old who is called the devil.

Sign or symbol (as you put it) explained.

And let us not forget in Revelation we have God supernaturally intervening in the affairs of the world.

 

[Dave L]

Applying symbols where there are none is an error period. Why would we think the 1000 years is a symbol? And symbols lead us to a concrete reality. Therefore, what is the 1000 years representing when referring to the kingdom on earth?

Yes Revelation is chock full of apocalyptic language and symbols. However, there are many portions which are not and the portions which are symbolic there is usually an explanation. How do you handle Revelation 19? Is that not the Second coming of Christ to earth as conquering King as prophesied in Zechariah 14:

Zechariah 14: NASB
9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

10All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. 11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

12Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. 13It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. 14Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. 15So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.

16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Maybe I should ask you the question whether or not you see the second coming of Christ as a literal event with Him coming as conquering King.


Ah, the red dragon elicits a red herring from you. Revelation 12 uses the words "a sign from Heaven" when referring to the woman, child and dragon. Let's look at the text.

Revelation 12: NASB
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

The text clearly denotes this as a sign. Not a literal dragon but a sign.

σημεῖον sēmeîon, say-mi'-on; neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally:—miracle, sign, token, wonder.
G4519 semeion​

I won't stop there. The 'sign' is explained and identifies the 'red dragon':

7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

No guess work there. The red dragon is explained in the very same passage as Satan, the serpent of old who is called the devil.

Sign or symbol (as you put it) explained.

And let us not forget in Revelation we have God supernaturally intervening in the affairs of the world.

Simply put. What happens when the 1000 years end? Satan is loosed. So the 1000 years represent Satan's binding. Why aren't the 1000 years the kingdom? Because Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed at the end of the 1000 years. If something is among other symbols, it is probably a symbol too.

 

[HTacianas]

Someone needs to send a note to St Irenaeus of the policy change. Did both the east and west churches take his "Doctor of the Church" credentials away?

But with that, a millennial kingdom as depicted in Revelation 20 does not indicate a cessation of the Kingdom of God. That would require the King to no longer be. Where the King of kings resides matters not as He is eternal and His Kingdom, in our temporal terms, has always been and always will be. Our King is the Alpha and Omega.

And of course Irenaeus was convinced there was a resurrection of the Just and an earthly millennial kingdom. He gives his dissertation in Against Heresies Book V chapter 32 (it's worth reading chapter 31 as well). Irenaeus of course was refuting the Gnostic heresy and using the physical earthly kingdom as evidence one does not just pass from this body and go to "heaven" but there is a resurrection of the flesh.

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:

1. Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God's dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum ); and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behooves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: For the expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Romans 8:19, etc.

2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains steadfast. For thus He said: Lift up your eyes, and look from this place where now you are, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which you see I will give to you and to your seed, even forever. Genesis 13:13-14 And again He says, Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto you; Genesis 13:17 and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. Acts 7:5; Hebrews 11:13 And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. Genesis 23:11 Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: I will give this land to your seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates. Genesis 15:13 If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham. Luke 3:8 Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: But you, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise. Galatians 4:28 And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spoke] of many, but as of one, And to your seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16 And again, confirming his former words, he says, Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in you shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:6, etc. Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5
(embedded Bible verses courtesy of the New Advent site)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103532.htm​

For every Church Father who supported the idea of chiliasm there is another who rejected it. The controversy was eventually resolved by the Council of Constantinople.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't think so. Because if you look at what the symbols represent instead of looking for the symbols to appear, you can see Antichrist as early as the 1st century. And Throughout history in totalitarian regimes and churches .

I do believe the 'ground work' in every generation since the Ascension of Christ is Divinely laid down to keep us from trying to predict His Second Coming. I do also consider that God in His Divine Providence reveals to us the full consummation of things in smaller scales throughout history and for us into the future.

However, I cannot see Biblically possible that the anti-Christ or beast came in 1st Century AD. An anti-Christ? Sure there are probably many in many generations as we know the spirit of anti-Christ was at work in the time of the apostles (1 John 4:3 and 1 Thessalonians 2:7-8)

Why because in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19 The Lord (Jesus Christ) comes to defeat the beast and false prophet and to destroy the nations coming against Israel. In 70 AD the Jews are defeated not delivered and the Roman legions victorious.

 

[Dave L]

I do believe the 'ground work' in every generation since the Ascension of Christ is Divinely laid down to keep us from trying to predict His Second Coming. I do also consider that God in His Divine Providence reveals to us the full consummation of things in smaller scales throughout history and for us into the future.

However, I cannot see Biblically possible that the anti-Christ or beast came in 1st Century AD. An anti-Christ? Sure there are probably many in many generations as we know the spirit of anti-Christ was at work in the time of the apostles (1 John 4:3 and 1 Thessalonians 2:7-8)

Why because in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19 The Lord (Jesus Christ) comes to defeat the beast and false prophet and to destroy the nations coming against Israel. In 70 AD the Jews are defeated not delivered and the Roman legions victorious.

You will never see the symbol materialize. Only what the symbol represents. Open your spiritual eyes, it is all there.

 

[redleghunter]

For every Church Father who supported the idea of chiliasm there is another who rejected it. The controversy was eventually resolved by the Council of Constantinople.

Fully understand the history. Yet the OP claim of the Nicene creed refuting millennialism has not been proven. None of the fathers who advocated an earthly millennial kingdom with Christ as King used any language the Kingdom comes to an end.

 

[redleghunter]

You will never see the symbol materialize. Only what the symbol represents. Open your spiritual eyes, it is all there.

What's interesting is you have not even cracked open the Bible to support your claims. I already explained to you the symbols or signs are explained. There are no symbols or signs in Revelation 20.

You are attempting to symbolize the entire book of Revelation almost as badly as a hyper Dispensationalist telling us to take the entire book as literal word for word.

So please start backing up your assertions with evidence.

 

[redleghunter]

Simply put. What happens when the 1000 years end? Satan is loosed. So the 1000 years represent Satan's binding. Why aren't the 1000 years the kingdom? Because Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed at the end of the 1000 years. If something is among other symbols, it is probably a symbol too.

So the 1000 years are applied to Satan but not the kingdom even though both passages use 1000 years.

I'm going to need to see some justification for this and it would help if you quoted the appropriate passages in context as I have been doing.