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Millennialism is no longer part of Christianity

Discussion in 'Patristics' started by HTacianas, Sep 12, 2018.

  1. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    Hebrews 8:8 says that we are not living under two different covenants...ie one for Jews and one for Gentiles'...

    "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

    when I will make a new covenant

    with the house of Israel

    and with the house of Judah"

    The difference between the 2 covenants, in the first the people said all these things we will do.
    In the second God said all these things I will do (that is how one should be interpreting the statement "on better promises")

    Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31
     
  2. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Of course we aren't living under two different covenants.

    I won't speak concerning unbelieving Jews, as that's not my place. But for Christians, whether Jew or Gentile, there is the one covenant of grace in which we live. The things of the former covenant (which the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews says has been made obsolete) simply have no application for us. Christianity maintains that all the covenants God made in former times have been fulfilled in Jesus--so the covenants God established through Abraham, Moses, and David have all accomplished their purpose: The Lord Messiah, Jesus, has come.

    This covenant began in Jerusalem, proclaimed by the Apostles first among the house of Israel and Judah (Jews and Samaritans), but as we see from the plain words of the New Testament, the Gospel went forth out from Jerusalem and not only the Jews of the Diaspora, but the Gentiles as well.

    And so faithful (that is, believing) Israel, the natural olive branches on the olive tree have been joined with the wild olive branches which have been grafted upon the tree. And so Israel is not only Jews only, but Gentiles also--"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first, and also the Greek." (Romans 1:16).

    Thus faithful, believing Israel (from the Christian perspective) is the Church; and consists of both Jew and Gentile together in Christ; and in Christ there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, male or female, slave or free, etc.

    What covenant does the Church--faithful, believing Israel--have? The one delivered to the Jews alone through Moses? Of course not. But the one established in the Lord Messiah by His own life, death, and resurrection for all people.

    The former covenant, with its rites, rituals, sabbaths, new moons, days of observance, et al simply does not exist for us.

    The Sabbath, like all things of the former covenant, belongs to the former covenant established through Moses. The Covenant established through Christ--who is greater than Moses--has none of these things. The only "sabbath" in the new covenant is our joyous rest in Christ, He who has said both "I will give you rest" and "[I am] the Lord of the Sabbath".

    The Sabbath pointed to Jesus not Jesus to the Sabbath, which is why He can proclaim Himself Lord over the Sabbath. Jesus is greater than the Sabbath, the Sabbath existed for Him, to point to Him, its purpose is fulfilled. The Sabbath is therefore nothing more than a shadow, a glimmer, a prefiguring foretaste of the true substance of Christ. The rest from our earthly labors prefigures the rest which the world finds in the Gospel; for we look forward to the glorious age when there is never-ceasing Sabbath not on the seventh day of the week which comes and then it goes; but rather the never-ceasing Sabbath of the eighth day, the everlasting and eternal day of God's new creation. The Day which began with Christ's resurrection, in which we live now by faith, and in which we shall live forever in the Olam HaBa, the Age to Come, world without end.

    If one observes the seventh day as a day of rest out of their freedom in Christ, then it is for the glory of God. If, however, one observes the seventh day as a day of rest out of the misguided belief that they must do so for the sake of righteousness, then they deny Christ in their false works.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  3. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    What Hebrews actually means (and it is simply re iterating what Jeremiah prophesied centuries earlier) both covenants are given to the Israelites and Judaens!

    It is a false doctrine that the Old covenant was for the Jews and the New Covenant is for the Gentiles as is claimed by modern Sunday worshipping churches. They use this argument in order to ignore the 4th Commandment "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. In six days you shall do all your work, however the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God"

    Denying Christ is to deny his commandments (plural) ie 10 commandments.

    The new commandment (singular) that Jesus gave is not doing away with the original Moral Law. Gods laws are eternal...the 10 commandments are the standard by which all are judged. All Jesus did was summarise the existing moral law into two simple phrases...
    Love God (commandments 1-3)
    Love thy Neighbour (commandments 5-10)

    They are joined by the Sabbath (Jesus is lord of the Sabbath and the mediator of the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah ch 31)

    The point of Jesus death is to provide us a cloak of righteousness so that the wages of sin (eternal death) are not automatically applied to all humanity. That is the point of the entire plan of salvation!

    Believing in the relevance of the Law does not mean "we are saved by works"...that is ridiculous.

    People just do not get the simple truth Jesus died for our sins, however, one cannot know what sin is unless there is a moral law by which we are judged! God has now written His Laws (10 commandments) on our hearts. That does not mean they no longer exist!
     
  4. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Straw man. Re-read my post.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  5. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    I will ignore the first remark in your post (one should not demonstrate poor intellect through the use of such phases as that which you used), and just deal with the doctrinal facts...

    your claim appears to be that the first covenant did not allow for the salvation of gentiles. That is completely false doctrine. The two covenants actually mean the following:

    God's people has always been anyone who accepts him! The israelites were simply the chosen people for spreading his word...as opposed to his chosen and the only ones who could be saved (as you appear to claim...I welcome being corrected on that interpretation of what you wrote).

    When we convert someone to Christianity, we usually convert them to our own denomination. That is no different from the israelite model...we follow that same model. The problem was, the israelites abused the role they had to play in this, and made it a burden to all (including themselves).

    Covenant one : the people make the promise "all these things WE WILL DO"
    Covenant two: "God is now saying all these things I WILL DO" This is why the second covenant is based on better promises...the onus is now upon Gods shoulders to do the work for us in spreading his gospel to all the world. He speaks directly to the hearts of all men, he writes his laws on the hearts of all men. The Holy spirit is actively working for us.

    "The promises of the new covenant are not better because they are different but rather because of the manner in which they are given to us. John Calvin reminds us that although the salvation promised to old covenant and new covenant believers is the same, the old covenant saints did not enjoy the same clarity of revelation that we do. " Better Promises | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    This would be a misreading of what I was saying then. I didn't touch on the subject of the salvation of Jews or Gentiles under the Old Covenant at all. But since we are now talking about this, let me make a statement concerning that: The Old Covenant didn't have anything to do with salvation--nobody, Jew or Gentile, is promised salvation under the Old Covenant.

    Salvation is found exclusively in Jesus Christ and what He has done.

    The Old Covenant pointed toward the coming of the Savior.

    And before anyone misunderstands me, I am not saying no one was saved prior to the Lord's birth. I am saying that the Old Covenant did not promise anyone salvation--it did not provide salvation. There is no salvation in the Old Covenant. Salvation, for both Jew and Gentile, before Christ was still from Christ.

    For this reason our Lord Jesus Christ says that Abraham looked forward to His day. Moses was not saved under the covenant which he was himself the instrument of; Moses is saved under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

    Israel's chosenness is bound to God's promise to Abraham. The covenant established with Abraham was that from him would come the promised Seed, which St. Paul says--quite plainly--is Jesus Christ. Israel was chosen by God because from Israel comes Jesus Christ.

    The Old Covenant did not establish ancient Israel to be an evangelizing people--but a people who dwell in the land promised to their fathers, to practice God's Torah, and in this way be a distinct and peculiar people among the nations. And from this nation of people would come the Messiah, our Lord Jesus.

    Jesus is not just another page in the history of Israel. Jesus is the whole book.

    We don't. We don't convert anyone to Christianity.

    Conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit worked through the power of the Gospel through the God-given Means of His grace: Word and Sacrament.

    We preach the Gospel because God Himself works through the preaching of the Gospel to create faith, and through this faith justifies sinners by imputing to them the full righteousness of Jesus Christ.

    I'm not sure what you are talking about. Neither the ancient Israelites, nor we ourselves, convert anyone.

    You have some things right, and some things wrong.

    The old covenant: God promised a specific people that they would dwell in the land of their fathers, if they would hold firm to His Torah. We can see what happened when they betrayed God, as the writings of the Prophets and the Histories show us.

    The New Covenant: God fulfills all of His ancient promises, the Messiah has come, and in Him there is peace with God, eternal life, and the promise of the restoration of all things in the Age to Come. It is not about instructions written on tablets of stone, but the very Law of God written on our hearts, inscribed upon us by the Holy Spirit who reminds us of what Christ our God has said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind; and you shall love your neighbor as yourself."

    Of course the promises of the New Covenant are better because they are different. These are totally different promises: There is no promise of salvation from the Old Covenant. No where does the old covenant promise or deliver salvation. Rather, the old covenant prefigures the salvation we have received in the new, this is seen in the deliverance of Israel from Egypt in the Exodus and the bringing them into the promised land. The deliverance of God's people from earthly tyranny prefigures the deliverance of all people from the tyranny of sin, death, hell, and the devil.

    The better promises of the new covenant are salvation in Jesus Christ. For we have such a great high priest who makes intercession, who has made reconciliation for us by His own life spilled out unto death, and is our Peace with God. There is no peace, no shalom with God without Jesus Christ. That very Shalom in which we share every time we celebrate the Most Holy Supper of the Eucharist: The very broken body and shed blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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