Millennialism is no longer part of Christianity

[Dave L]

What's interesting is you have not even cracked open the Bible to support your claims. I already explained to you the symbols or signs are explained. There are no symbols or signs in Revelation 20.

You are attempting to symbolize the entire book of Revelation almost as badly as a hyper Dispensationalist telling us to take the entire book as literal word for word.

So please start backing up your assertions with evidence.

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel) Satan is a liar and the gospel sent to all nations keeps him from deceiving them.

the 1000 years = Satan bound. 1000 years end = Satan loosed

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the nations again deceived and the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

 

[HTacianas]

Fully understand the history. Yet the OP claim of the Nicene creed refuting millennialism has not been proven. None of the fathers who advocated an earthly millennial kingdom with Christ as King used any language the Kingdom comes to an end.

There is nothing to be proved. The Council of Constantinople condemned chiliasm and modified the Nicene Creed to reflect it.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am a Lutheran, so I don't believe the councils are necessarily infallible or authoritative in themselves, however, the statement that Christ's kingdom will end is repugnant to who Christ is presented to be in the Bible. (in Luke, Chapter 1, the angel Gabriel tells Mary that Jesus' kingdom will reign forever, echoing Daniel 7's proclamation that the kingdom will be everlasting).

Our confessions condemn a certain kind of chiliasm, whereby the godly are to seize power from the ungodly and reign as kings, a doctrine taught by some radicals during the Reformation. It's ironically very similar to some forms of Dominionism alive in evangelicalism today.

A certain kind of quasi-post-millenialism does exist in certain Lutheran thought, especially Spener's pietism, in a hope for better times as social conditions improve and true religion spreads into peoples hearts. But it's not exactly the same as the chiliastic expectations of the radicals.

 

[redleghunter]

The angel = Greek for messenger

Ok

the chain = the message (gospel) Satan is a liar and the gospel sent to all nations keeps him from deceiving them.

Eisegesis but I will bite. How is Satan being bound since the Gospel preached in 1st Century AD working out with regards to the nations from being deceived? I can count thousands of false gospels, cults and world religions not to mention atheists and agnostics. So this is soundly refuted.

the 1000 years = Satan bound. 1000 years end = Satan loosed

When did this 1,000 years begin? It's been close to 2000 years since the Gospel preached. Or are you applying a symbol within a symbol that the 1000 years is just a long time? Even though other Biblical passages have 10s of thousands even 100s of thousands clearly delineated (Revelation 7)?

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the nations again deceived and the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

Well the above is definitely an indictment of the West but not the rest of the world where the Gospel is growing, prospering and the brethren dying, imprisoned and tortured for the faith.

 

[Dave L]

Ok


>Eisegesis but I will bite. How is Satan being bound since the Gospel preached in 1st Century AD working out with regards to the nations from being deceived? I can count thousands of false gospels, cults and world religions not to mention atheists and agnostics. So this is soundly refuted.


>When did this 1,000 years begin? It's been close to 2000 years since the Gospel preached. Or are you applying a symbol within a symbol that the 1000 years is just a long time? Even though other Biblical passages have 10s of thousands even 100s of thousands clearly delineated (Revelation 7)?


>Well the above is definitely an indictment of the West but not the rest of the world where the Gospel is growing, prospering and the brethren dying, imprisoned and tortured for the faith.

>>All that the Father gave to Christ will come to him. From among the nations. Satan is bound by the gospel from deceiving these.

>>Jesus bound Satan evidenced by casting out demons and healing the sick. He said:
“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20) The 1000 years are symbol of completeness in scripture, not to be taken literally. “For every beast of the forest is mine, And the cattle upon a thousand hills.” (Psalm 50:10)

>>
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9–10)

Look for mass casualties of Christians in history and you will discover Antichrist.

 

[redleghunter]

There is nothing to be proved. The Council of Constantinople condemned chiliasm and modified the Nicene Creed to reflect it.

Not really. The addition to the Nicene Creed was meant to refute the stated Sabellianism of Marcellus of Ancyra and others. Their doctrine included an end to Christ's reign and which is explicitly singled out for condemnation by the council in Canon #1.

Canon 1

The Faith of the Three Hundred and Eighteen Fathers assembled at Nice in Bithynia shall not be set aside, but shall remain firm. And every heresy shall be anathematized, particularly that of the Eunomians or [Anomæans, the Arians or] Eudoxians, and that of the Semi-Arians or Pneumatomachi, and that of the Sabellians, and that of the Marcellians, and that of the Photinians, and that of the Apollinarians. (https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/constantinople_canons.htm)​

Whose kingdom will have no end is cited to be explained in canon 1 above:

Creed
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the Right Hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end. (I)

And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And [we believe] in one, holy, (II) Catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3808.htm)​

Therefore, the Sabellian view (a corruption of 1 Corinthians 15:28) of Christ's reign coming to an end was condemned but not millennialism. The early orthodox fathers espousing millennialism did not advocate Christ's reign coming to an end.

 

[redleghunter]

I am a Lutheran, so I don't believe the councils are necessarily infallible or authoritative in themselves, however, the statement that Christ's kingdom will end is repugnant to who Christ is presented to be in the Bible. (in Luke, Chapter 1, the angel Gabriel tells Mary that Jesus' kingdom will reign forever, echoing Daniel 7's proclamation that the kingdom will be everlasting).

Our confessions condemn a certain kind of chiliasm, whereby the godly are to seize power from the ungodly and reign as kings, a doctrine taught by some radicals during the Reformation. It's ironically very similar to some forms of Dominionism alive in evangelicalism today.

A certain kind of quasi-post-millenialism does exist in certain Lutheran thought, especially Spener's pietism, in a hope for better times as social conditions improve and true religion spreads into peoples hearts. But it's not exactly the same as the chiliastic expectations of the radicals.

Can you show me the early church fathers who held the millennial view stating Christ's kingdom would come to an end? Thanks.

 

[redleghunter]

>>All that the Father gave to Christ will come to him. From among the nations. Satan is bound by the gospel from deceiving these.

So Satan is only bound as it relates to God's elect? (Ephesians 1)

>>Jesus bound Satan evidenced by casting out demons and healing the sick. He said:
“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20) The 1000 years are symbol of completeness in scripture, not to be taken literally. “For every beast of the forest is mine, And the cattle upon a thousand hills.” (Psalm 50:10)

Again creating a symbol within a symbol to fit the eisegesis.

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9–10)

That is the scene in Heaven not earth.

Look for mass casualties of Christians in history and you will discover Antichrist.

Yet all these casualties and Satan is bound?

 

[Dave L]

>So Satan is only bound as it relates to God's elect? (Ephesians 1)


>Again creating a symbol within a symbol to fit the eisegesis.


>That is the scene in Heaven not earth.

Yet all these casualties and Satan is bound?

>> yes

>> no, using scripture to define scripture.

>> Yes, Jesus rules from David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. But the kingdom covers heaven and earth.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, Jesus rules from David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. But the kingdom covers heaven and earth.

Is this a literal throne or a symbolic throne?

 

[Erik Nelson]

How do you handle Isaiah 61 spiritually?

happened 2000 years ago = Luke 4:16-30

 

[Erik Nelson]

The 1000 years = Satan's binding. Not the Kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years expire.

think we're all on the same page here but could help to clarify our terms

1000 years = "Millennium" = thousand year phase stage period era age of the Church...
Church = "Kingdom" of Messiah & God on earth, broke into terrestrial creation & human history 2000 years ago

Millennium = Kingdom in power = high water mark, heyday

 

[Dave L]

think we're all on the same page here but could help to clarify our terms

1000 years = "Millennium" = thousand year phase stage period era age of the Church...
Church = "Kingdom" of Messiah & God on earth, broke into terrestrial creation & human history 2000 years ago

Millennium = Kingdom in power = high water mark, heyday

The way I understand, the 1000 years = Satan's binding, not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years end.

 

[Dave L]

Is this a literal throne or a symbolic throne?

Jesus is God, so he rules the nations with a rod of iron as always. In the OT David's Throne was God's throne. Peter says he sits on it since his the time of his Resurrection in heavenly Jerusalem above = heaven.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The way I understand, the 1000 years = Satan's binding, not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years end.

yes, during the "Kingdom in Power" period of a thousand years, the Adversary is [was?] bound on Earth

perhaps during that age of Christendom, the Adversary's schemes somehow gain no traction, some combination of the Holy Spirit's active guidance & Church tradition foils them and keeps people from being lured away into sin... afterwards it somehow becomes increasingly acceptable to give in to temptation

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus is God, so he rules the nations with a rod of iron as always. In the OT David's Throne was God's throne. Peter says he sits on it since his the time of his Resurrection in heavenly Jerusalem above = heaven.

So the throne is literal but the images surrounding are not.

 

[redleghunter]

happened 2000 years ago = Luke 4:16-30

Indeed and literally fulfilled through Isaiah 61:2a.

Will the remainder of this Messianic prophecy be fiulfilled literally as well?

 

[Dave L]

So the throne is literal but the images surrounding are not.

The throne is wherever God is and he is omnipresent.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I'm not sure what you are talking about you thinking I said "you must".

Hi that is weird, I wrote my answer in a word doc pasted it and saw all my text then posted it and only a couple lines appeared. Ill try again.

Hi the Nicean creed is in contradiction with the scriptures. Dave has been vocal on this topic and makes an interesting point, “Some of us know because faith comes from hearing the word. You cannot have faith based on theory or conjecture. “ Then all of Dave's observations are made based on theory and conjecture. In the 1st advent of Jesus all the prophecy of Zechariah were literal such as coming on the foal of a donkey and being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. So when someone points out Zech 14 and the MT of Olives splitting in two; is a metaphor? Is it really a metaphor that creates a new valley too with specific boundaries and that create a new river that flows in very specific directions, also flowing year round? Dave's theory is that the new covenant replaces Israel with the church and his conjecture is all the prophecy is now irrelevant and now a metaphor. He accuses those who take the scriptures literal of trying to force all these prophecies into the gap in Daniels 70th week to mean the tribulation and and Daniels 70th week are still future. You are forcing these same prophecies into your theory that the kingdom is already and they are not relevant anymore. Your claim that the 70th week is future has not scriptural support is laughable in that 100's of unfulfilled prophecies and a timeline in scripture are the main supports. Revelation warns not to ad to the book or take away from the book. You are claiming to have special glasses that Revelation says Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations are not deceived for 1000 years and the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire for a 1000 years and those beheaded be the anitchrist for refusing the mark of the beast live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years does not mean exactly what it says. You are forcing an allegorical view to fit your kingdom, new covenant theory. We do however agree on salvation is through the new covenant only.
The book of Daniels chapter 2 describes the coming of the kingdom age as a stone cut without hands descending and then destroying and leaving no trace of man’s kingdoms and then becoming a mountain (kingdom) that covers the whole earth and this kingdom will have no end. Rev says Satan will be bound for 1000 years and the nations who were deceived will not be deceived again for the whole 1000 years. In Zech 14 on the day that the MT of Olives splits in two it is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and a day in which the LORD melts his enemies. On this day it is also dark in the day and light at night. On this day the LORD is declared king over all the earth. Dan 2 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. You see the kingdom starts at the 2nd coming depicted in Zech 14 and this kingdom is not a 1000 year reign but an eternal one. Jesus reign is not interrupted at the end of the 1000 years; He is still ruling and reigning when the New Jerusalem comes down.

Scripture establishes the timeline for us. Daniel 7 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings. 25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time. 26 But the judgment shall be set, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. This passage in Daniels puts the kingdom at the end of a time when an evil one rises and has power for a time, times and half a time. This is in sinc with Revelation given the beast dominion for 42 months. If you observe the destruction in Zech 14 Jerusalem is over run when the LORD saves them. If you look at the and of the 1000 years when Satan is released he musters and army surround the city and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. The nations have never been more deceived then now and Satan has never been bound. The kingdom will come and follow the timeline set in the law and prophets and New Testament. They are in harmony and without contradiction.

Parting shot those who deny the millennium and take Dave's method and have the church replacing Israel in the covenants and prophecies and see no significance with Israel being in the land again and their moves towards restoring the daily sacrifices: The literal view sees the soon return of the Temple and daily

sacrifice as the stage set for the literal antichrist to come and commit the abomination of desolation in. Reality is lining up with the literal view as the world is moving towards a global government that is completely opposed to Biblical truth. The nation of Israel will be divided and the preparations for the return of the sacrifice are all made. The current events line up with a literal view of scripture. At any rate all of us be repented of our sins and be sharing the good news of the cross.

 

[Dave L]

Hi that is weird, I wrote my answer in a word doc pasted it and saw all my text then posted it and only a couple lines appeared. Ill try again.

Hi the Nicean creed is in contradiction with the scriptures. Dave has been vocal on this topic and makes an interesting point, “Some of us know because faith comes from hearing the word. You cannot have faith based on theory or conjecture. “ Then all of Dave's observations are made based on theory and conjecture. In the 1st advent of Jesus all the prophecy of Zechariah were literal such as coming on the foal of a donkey and being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. So when someone points out Zech 14 and the MT of Olives splitting in two; is a metaphor? Is it really a metaphor that creates a new valley too with specific boundaries and that create a new river that flows in very specific directions, also flowing year round? Dave's theory is that the new covenant replaces Israel with the church and his conjecture is all the prophecy is now irrelevant and now a metaphor. He accuses those who take the scriptures literal of trying to force all these prophecies into the gap in Daniels 70th week to mean the tribulation and and Daniels 70th week are still future. You are forcing these same prophecies into your theory that the kingdom is already and they are not relevant anymore. Your claim that the 70th week is future has not scriptural support is laughable in that 100's of unfulfilled prophecies and a timeline in scripture are the main supports. Revelation warns not to ad to the book or take away from the book. You are claiming to have special glasses that Revelation says Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations are not deceived for 1000 years and the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire for a 1000 years and those beheaded be the anitchrist for refusing the mark of the beast live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years does not mean exactly what it says. You are forcing an allegorical view to fit your kingdom, new covenant theory. We do however agree on salvation is through the new covenant only.
The book of Daniels chapter 2 describes the coming of the kingdom age as a stone cut without hands descending and then destroying and leaving no trace of man’s kingdoms and then becoming a mountain (kingdom) that covers the whole earth and this kingdom will have no end. Rev says Satan will be bound for 1000 years and the nations who were deceived will not be deceived again for the whole 1000 years. In Zech 14 on the day that the MT of Olives splits in two it is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and a day in which the LORD melts his enemies. On this day it is also dark in the day and light at night. On this day the LORD is declared king over all the earth. Dan 2 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. You see the kingdom starts at the 2nd coming depicted in Zech 14 and this kingdom is not a 1000 year reign but an eternal one. Jesus reign is not interrupted at the end of the 1000 years; He is still ruling and reigning when the New Jerusalem comes down.

Scripture establishes the timeline for us. Daniel 7 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings. 25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time. 26 But the judgment shall be set, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. This passage in Daniels puts the kingdom at the end of a time when an evil one rises and has power for a time, times and half a time. This is in sinc with Revelation given the beast dominion for 42 months. If you observe the destruction in Zech 14 Jerusalem is over run when the LORD saves them. If you look at the and of the 1000 years when Satan is released he musters and army surround the city and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. The nations have never been more deceived then now and Satan has never been bound. The kingdom will come and follow the timeline set in the law and prophets and New Testament. They are in harmony and without contradiction.

Parting shot those who deny the millennium and take Dave's method and have the church replacing Israel in the covenants and prophecies and see no significance with Israel being in the land again and their moves towards restoring the daily sacrifices: The literal view sees the soon return of the Temple and daily

sacrifice as the stage set for the literal antichrist to come and commit the abomination of desolation in. Reality is lining up with the literal view as the world is moving towards a global government that is completely opposed to Biblical truth. The nation of Israel will be divided and the preparations for the return of the sacrifice are all made. The current events line up with a literal view of scripture. At any rate all of us be repented of our sins and be sharing the good news of the cross.

The church = the congregation of the Lord in the OT. Used over 300 times. Under the New Covenant, God removed all of the unbelievers from the congregation, leaving only believers in Christ (YHWH). In Romans 11, God will reunite any broken off with Israel, the congregation or Church of the Lord, through faith in Christ.