Masks Are Essentially Worthless

[JacksBratt]

The claims and demands have become increasingly hysterical and unreasonable. I read one doctor claim this virus will dominate the rest of our lives. That strikes me as completely unhinged. It is not reasonable to expect that people will hunker down in their homes, wearing masks when they dain to go out for years on end.

If this is unreasonable and it has been initiated to cause some economic reset... then.. soon enough the amount of dept it's generating and the economic upheaval reaches the pockets of those making all the money... It will end.

History will be written to show something totally different.

 

[Isilwen]

I'm not so sure this isn't just about me making you comfortable.

I am only going to reply to this because this thread gave me a headache yesterday and I feel one coming on today.

For my part, I am an EMT as I have said. Before that, I was a volunteer firefighter. My girlfriend and others say that I have the heart of a caregiver. Therefore, your statement above is false. It has nothing to do with you making me feel comfortable and has everything to do with me trying to make sure that everyone is protected during this. I care for all people, not just myself. For if I cared for myself, I wouldn't have gone into burning buildings to help others that were trapped. I wouldn't put myself in harm's way every shift, even before this epidemic started.

It is not about me, but everyone else, for my part of this!

 

[LostMarbels]

A cloth mask as has been shown does help mitigate the spread. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that.

Can you explain to me what testing and/or regulations there are to standardize a filtration efficacy in cloth masks? What is the set norm of particulate they must filter to pass this testing?

 

[FenderTL5]

Remember that seat belt in the imaginary 90 mph crash? Why do you think there are other precautions such as roll cages, fire retardant clothing, impact rated helmet, Hans device, 5 point harnesses, crumple zones? Same reason there are different levels of response and PPE's for different levels of infectious control. It is not one and done, as if one mask filters all.

This issue isn't one and done either. masks, social distancing, closing places of high risk, judicious hand washing and sanitizers, thorough cleanings with disinfectants..

 

[Isilwen]

Can you explain to me what testing and/or regulations there are to standardize a filtration efficacy in cloth masks? What is the set norm of particulate they must filter to pass this testing?

I said I was only replying to that one part. I have a headache and I guess I didn't explain it well enough.

The reason for my headache is because I care for all people, and I don't want to see them harmed. Even via their own stupidity, whether it's doing 110 MPH down I4 (I say that because right outside my apartment is a deadly MVA on I4 and from the looks of the one vehicle it was going at a high rate of speed) or people not wearing masks. It gives me a headache because it really is such a simple thing to do and there are studies that show it is effective in mitigating the spread.

The headache is because it hurts me to see people so reckless with their lives and other people's lives that they may come into contact with. My mind struggles with it. So, the headache.

My girlfriend asks me why I continue to argue for so long with people who are hell-bent on dying (her words). My reason, because if I can help just one person, seen or unseen, then all that I have said will have meant something.

I am done replying to this.

 

[LostMarbels]

I care for all people, not just myself. For if I cared for myself, I wouldn't have gone into burning buildings to help others that were trapped. I wouldn't put myself in harm's way every shift, even before this epidemic started.

I never conflated or raised any of those issues. Never even brought up your moral character concerning an amoral, inanimate object, like a mask.

It does however come off as a focal point of some self-worth tho. Are you a better person than me for wearing a mask?

I care for all people, not just myself. For if I cared for myself, I wouldn't have gone into burning buildings to help others that were trapped. I wouldn't put myself in harm's way every shift, even before this epidemic started

Thank you for what you do, but this conversation is about masks, and covid. Why would you wear a Scotts, and not a heat rated PAPR in a smoke filled house?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Can you explain to me what testing and/or regulations there are to standardize a filtration efficacy in cloth masks? What is the set norm of particulate they must filter to pass this testing?

One does not need to know what testing and/or regulations there are to standardize a filtration efficacy in cloth masks nor what is the set norm of particulate they must filter to pass this testing. Let the CDC do the research.
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

 

[LostMarbels]

The reason for my headache is because I care for all people, and I don't want to see them harmed.

I feel the same.

Even via their own stupidity,

Again, same. Maybe we both have different ways of looking at things and aren't nasty monsters that want to kill people?

down I4

I live in Orlando. I hear ya.

I am done replying to this.

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[LostMarbels]

One does not need to know what testing and/or regulations there are to standardize a filtration efficacy in cloth masks nor what is the set norm of particulate they must filter to pass this testing.

Why? Why would people be so trusting of something other people are requiring under the notion of your own safety?

There are no standardized tests or regulations for cloth masks. None. I am not even aware of any testing of material types you might be breathing through being checked for toxicity, or what might be inhaled from the mask.

 

[LostMarbels]

This issue isn't one and done either. masks, social distancing, closing places of high risk, judicious hand washing and sanitizers, thorough cleanings with disinfectants..

Yeah, but it is only the outward appearance of conformity that is enforced.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Why? Why would people be so trusting of something other people are requiring under the notion of your own safety?

There are no standardized tests or regulations for cloth masks. None. I am not even aware of any testing of material types you might be breathing through being checked for toxicity, or what might be inhaled from the mask.

See recent studies at bottom of CDC link.


Sounds like you want the best respirator you can find.

 

[LostMarbels]

See recent studies at bottom of CDC link.


Sounds like you want the best respirator you can find.

I want my rights to remain intact, as well as your own to-do as you see fit.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I want my rights to remain intact, as well as your own to-do as you see fit.

I do see your point. There is a trade off though. I am not willing to read all the most recent research for such a simple precaution.

 

[Archivist]

There's a difference between covering up sexual objects and covering one's face.

Interesting. The government has no right to require that you wear a mask
because that is using "the heavy hand of a tyrannical state to force [you] to submit" since a "free people should be free to decide whether they want to wear a mask or not" even if wearing a mask would protect the health of others. Yet a free person who is female cannot decide to go topless because that's sexual and so shirts can be required.

Talk about a double standard! You don't feel like wearing a mask even though studies show that it could protect others. but women, you keep your tops on because breasts are sexual. Talk about a double standard!

I presume that if the government were to decide that an exposed male chest was sexual, you would stop going topless at the beach and pool.

 

[Redwingfan9]

If this is unreasonable and it has been initiated to cause some economic reset... then.. soon enough the amount of dept it's generating and the economic upheaval reaches the pockets of those making all the money... It will end.

History will be written to show something totally different.

History will likely view this pandemic and the response as utterly foolish. We will be laughed at for destroying economy over such a minor virus. My guess is that this is the beginning of the end of American dominance in the world. Perhaps it will be traced back to 911 and the two costly and disastrous wars we fought. Our virus response has further exposed American fiscal incompetence such that we are unlikely to recover from this in a short amount of time. Our failure to turn to Christ during these times only makes our situation worse.

If I may play doomsday I think the next 20 years are going to be incredibly difficult. We will no longer be a superpower by 2040. Whether China takes over via war or a total American economic collapse remains to be seen. I would not be shocked if there is a second American civil war, perhaps racial in nature but not necessarily.

Make no mistake though, our extreme overreaction to the virus will be looked at by historians as a major cause of American economic and political decline.

 

[Archivist]

History will likely view this pandemic and the response as utterly foolish. We will be laughed at for destroying economy over such a minor virus. My guess is that this is the beginning of the end of American dominance in the world. Perhaps it will be traced back to 911 and the two costly and disastrous wars we fought. Our virus response has further exposed American fiscal incompetence such that we are unlikely to recover from this in a short amount of time. Our failure to turn to Christ during these times only makes our situation worse.

If I may play doomsday I think the next 20 years are going to be incredibly difficult. We will no longer be a superpower by 2040. Whether China takes over via war or a total American economic collapse remains to be seen. I would not be shocked if there is a second American civil war, perhaps racial in nature but not necessarily.

Make no mistake though, our extreme overreaction to the virus will be looked at by historians as a major cause of American economic and political decline.

My guess is that a virus is “minor” when none of your family members have died from it. If one or more of the 152,000+ who have died from this were family members of yours, I doubt that you would call it minor.

 

[mindlight]

The notion that science has determined that masks are going to save us from Chinese Coronavirus (or any other disease) is utter tosh. Anyone telling you science is settled on any issue should raise a red flag. On masks, science isn't close to settled.

The British Journal of Medicine says cloth masks are 97% useless. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

A study of the more serious 1918 flu pandemic showed masks useless. The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Another study shows cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

Other studies show cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks, even the latter are questionable. They include:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

Simple Respiratory Protection—Evaluation of the Filtration Performance of Cloth Masks and Common Fabric Materials Against 20–1000 nm Size Particles

Masks are associated with oxygen deprivation and increased rates of infection according to these studies:

[Effect of a surgical mask on six minute walking distance] - PubMed

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30169507/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/

A 2015 British study on surgical masks revealed masks don't really protect patient or surgeon very much. And that's in sterile settings. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...-KkzpdkmzltnAf-GXp7gMeQkkyeZJ6gEs7G5h8PHln_R0

Finally, one New England Journal of Medicine editorial acknowledged the uselessness of masks but demanded universal masking nonetheless less for its placebo effect. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

There is plenty of evidence out there that masks and mask mandates aren't working and in fact are causing harm. They're a placebo to make you think you're protected and to make politicians look like they're doing something when they're in reality doing nothing.

Do your own research.

None of these links refer to the specific problem of containing corona virus which is why people are obliged to wear a mask today. Many of the links are referring to comparisons between cloth masks and proper medical masks and of course proper medical PPE is better when worn correctly. Many of them refer to flu which is different to SARs-Cov-2.

Flu is not the same thing as corona virus although they share a family history. Covid19 is more contagious, more deadly, not seasonal, longer lead time, is more deadly to old and genetically defective people rather than kids or healthy people ( as was Spanish flu for example), the population as a whole are more susceptible to covid19 than flu.

Masks are recommended by CDC cause respiration is main source of transmission. No mask is completely foolproof, but if you filter out enough particles then your immune system can cope with the rest. If both people are wearing masks and coughing into elbows and social distancing the risk is massively reduced. There is also the recommendation that you wash or replace mask regularly. An infected person will collect virus on their own cloth (they already have the disease so not infecting anyone else by doing so) but cannot simply breathe that all over you. If you wash cloths regularly then you are unlikely to collect virus from mask. Especially if you are not fiddling with it, touching contaminated surfaces etc. There are a series of complementary strategies here working together but face masks do reduce risk which is why you are legally obliged to wear one on public transport and in a shop in most countries I am familiar with.

The following article covers the material well

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...ar#1.-Masks-offer-no-protection-to-the-wearer

1) The primary value in wearing masks is to protect others from the droplets coming out of you and especially when you are in presymptomatic stages of infection.

2) There is evidence

“Mathematical modeling suggests that a face covering that is 60% effective at blocking viral transmission and is worn by 60% of the population will reduce R0 to below 1.0.”

– Prof. Trisha Greenhalgh

3) Masks even cloth ones do have blocking power

“We found that most home fabrics substantially block droplets, even as a single layer. With two layers, blocking performance can reach that of a surgical mask without significantly compromising breathability,” the authors wrote in the manuscript.

4)Personal risk - not if you wash mask regularly.
"There is no evidence indicating that masks increase the wearer’s risk of developing pneumonia or other bacterial, viral, or fungal lung infections."

It is unlikely that wearing a mask will cause hypercapnia.”

 

[Archivist]

I have an undergraduate degree from Michigan State and a Juris Doctor from Case Western Reserve. My degrees are recognized worldwide as being from top notch institutions.

Case Western is a decent school. Last I looked it was ranked 76th in the US News rankings.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Case Western is a decent school. Last I looked it was ranked 76th in the US News rankings.

I just saw that the other day. When I was there it was in the upper 40's. I have no idea why it's dropped so much although it looks to me like they dropped a lot of their academics for practical lawyering. That may explain the drop.

 

[Archivist]

The objection is that masks don't save lives, they're nothing more than a placebo.

Except the most recent report from the CDC says otherwise. I believe it was posted earlier in the thread.