Masks Are Essentially Worthless

LostMarbels · Jul 30, 2020

loveofourlord said:
I'm curious how well the economy is going on down in texas florida and arizona considering the insane deaths there now.

Is there something going on here in Florida? Where? Most of the people I know through my family (FHP, police, medical) are on furlough because there is no money. The lockdown is shutting down private hospitals. Orange County gov municipalities/principalities, utilities, entertainment, tourism.. etc... have all furloughed tens of thousands. Orland is one of the hardest hit economically due to businesses closed, and the highest unemployment rate in Fl.

We are also facing a food crisis.

The attached charts provide a glimpse of how food insecurity during COVID-19 compares with the Great Recession and 2018. A new study shows a likely increase of 49% in the number of people who are hungry. That’s an additional 214,110 people in the six-county area of Central Florida. Even more shocking and disturbing, 214,690 children are going hungry. If you lined up those kids shoulder to shoulder along the side of I-4, that line would stretch from Orlando to Daytona Beach…and back again.

https://www.feedhopenow.org/site/SPageServer/?s_subsrc=slide&pagename=about_hunger_2020&s_src=homepage

JacksBratt · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
The notion that science has determined that masks are going to save us from Chinese Coronavirus (or any other disease) is utter tosh. Anyone telling you science is settled on any issue should raise a red flag. On masks, science isn't close to settled.

The British Journal of Medicine says cloth masks are 97% useless. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

A study of the more serious 1918 flu pandemic showed masks useless. The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Another study shows cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

Other studies show cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks, even the latter are questionable. They include:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

Error - Cookies Turned Off
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

Simple Respiratory Protection—Evaluation of the Filtration Performance of Cloth Masks and Common Fabric Materials Against 20–1000 nm Size Particles

Masks are associated with oxygen deprivation and increased rates of infection according to these studies:

[Effect of a surgical mask on six minute walking distance] - PubMed

"Exercise with facemask; Are we handling a devil's sword?" - A physiological hypothesis - PubMed

Healthcare personnel exposure in an emergency department during influenza season - PubMed

The physiological impact of wearing an N95 mask during hemodialysis as a precaution against SARS in patients with end-stage renal disease - PubMed

Respiratory consequences of N95-type Mask usage in pregnant healthcare workers-a controlled clinical study - PubMed

A 2015 British study on surgical masks revealed masks don't really protect patient or surgeon very much. And that's in sterile settings. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...-KkzpdkmzltnAf-GXp7gMeQkkyeZJ6gEs7G5h8PHln_R0

Finally, one New England Journal of Medicine editorial acknowledged the uselessness of masks but demanded universal masking nonetheless less for its placebo effect. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

There is plenty of evidence out there that masks and mask mandates aren't working and in fact are causing harm. They're a placebo to make you think you're protected and to make politicians look like they're doing something when they're in reality doing nothing.

Do your own research.

They are good for straining coffee grains, that slip over the filter.., out of the pot...

JacksBratt · Jul 30, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
We have to wait until November to pursue the most effective solution, so wear your mask.

What is this solution of which you speak?

Theodiskaz · Jul 30, 2020

Dkh587 said:
It makes sense that someone would stay home if they are afraid of a virus or of people transmitting a virus to them.

Evidence increasingly suggests we either mask or destroy the economy. The economy is worth it, and worth more than my right to shop barefaced

Radagast · Jul 30, 2020

Theodiskaz said:
Agreed, moisture droplets per see are not a major disease risk. However in cases of viral disease, the moisture droplets carry the virus within them, and if they come in contact with a mucus membrane, say the nose, mouth or eyes of a healthy person, then that person may contract the disease caused by the virus.

That is the case for, say, measles. It is not the case for Covid-19, which is far less infectious.

LostMarbels · Jul 30, 2020

Theodiskaz said:
Evidence increasingly suggests we either mask or destroy the economy. The economy is worth it, and worth more than my right to shop barefaced

Ultimatum?

loveofourlord · Jul 30, 2020

LostMarbels said:
Is there something going on here in Florida? Where? Most of the people I know through my family (FHP, police, medical) are on furlough because there is no money. The lockdown is shutting down private hospitals. Orange County gov municipalities/principalities, utilities, entertainment, tourism.. etc... have all furloughed tens of thousands. Orland is one of the hardest hit economically due to businesses closed, and the highest unemployment rate in Fl.

We are also facing a food crisis.

The attached charts provide a glimpse of how food insecurity during COVID-19 compares with the Great Recession and 2018. A new study shows a likely increase of 49% in the number of people who are hungry. That’s an additional 214,110 people in the six-county area of Central Florida. Even more shocking and disturbing, 214,690 children are going hungry. If you lined up those kids shoulder to shoulder along the side of I-4, that line would stretch from Orlando to Daytona Beach…and back again.

View attachment 281972

View attachment 281973
https://www.feedhopenow.org/site/SPageServer/?s_subsrc=slide&pagename=about_hunger_2020&s_src=homepage

Florida had their worst day of 250 deaths, yesterday was 204, that kind of thing might scare people from spending withb or without a lockdown.

dqhall · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
N95 masks are good in sterile settings and if they're properly fitted. Unfortunately walking around the grocery isn't a sterile setting and the overwhelming majority of laymen don't have them properly fitted.

There is a reason why the government in The Netherlands doesn't have a mask mandate. They specifically said there isn't scientific evidence that they're effective and because people wear masks improperly they're actually spreading the virus more.

The N-95 masks reduced the spread of aerosol particles when people coughed. There are global shortages of these.

China wore face masks. They observed sterile, distancing and quarantine protocols. Their economy is surging. Flights were more than 50% full again.
Their practices got good results. The US may look to successful practices in order to succeed.
China’s air passenger traffic inches up in June

LostMarbels · Jul 30, 2020

loveofourlord said:
Florida had their worst day of 250 deaths, yesterday was 204, that kind of thing might scare people from spending withb or without a lockdown.

Yeah, well... we also had testing sites reporting 100% infection rate, and the CDC among others are conflating figures.

I'm trying to figure out how to look up death certificates. Because to be honest there is no Alarm and panic where I am at.

Theodiskaz · Jul 30, 2020

LostMarbels said:
They are not 'perceived'. They are inalienable. As in: "unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor."

Seems many people do not understand that.

HatGuy said:
I don't understand why anyone wants to die on this hill.

Boredom?

I dunno. I don't care if the mask works or not. Wearing one increases my odds of being able to be kind and polite to others. It won't be forever. It wasn't in 1918 and it won't be in 2020.

I see you are in or from SA? America has a strong anti-intellectual bias. This shows up as suspicion of science, suspicion of experts, and suspicion of higher education. It shows up as openness to conspiracy ideation. Isaac Asimov's 1980 article "Cult of Ignorance" expounds upon this very bias. I believe expertise is dead as a social force in America.

Theodiskaz · Jul 30, 2020

LostMarbels said:
Ultimatum?

I'm sorry, what do you mean? Autistic Christian here

Theodiskaz · Jul 30, 2020

Radagast said:
That is the case for, say, measles. It is not the case for Covid-19, which is far less infectious.

False

Theodiskaz · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
It's not my job to make you unafraid of the world. What about the legions of people with athesma, autism or other mental illnesses who are made to feel dangerous and inferior because they cannot wear masks? What about kids who have trouble hearing or speaking who can't wear or be around people wearing masks because of their conditions? No one cares about any of them, they're just collateral damage like the millions of "unessental" workers who lost their jobs because of government dictate. No one cares about any of them, no sir we have to cater to media driven irrational fear.

I have autism. I wear a mask. I am my brother's keeper

LostMarbels · Jul 30, 2020

Theodiskaz said:
I see you are in or from SA?

SA?

Theodiskaz said:
America has a strong anti-intellectual bias.

How am I supposed to take that? Intellect of what? Or whom if you will... If you are saying I don't trust someone completely just because they are in a lab coat, you are correct. If you are stating I do not believe someone is my superior just because they claim to be… You would also be correct.

Theodiskaz said:
It shows up as openness to conspiracy ideation. Isaac Asimov's 1980 article "Cult of Ignorance" expounds upon this very bias. I believe expertise is dead as a social force in America.

Common Senses' article of 2020 "Critical Thinking vrs Herd Mentality" is pretty good of its own merit. It asks the question, should I believe thusly just because it is socially predicated?

What exactly is soylent green? Then there is Occam's razor... following the last 4 years, known conflation of death statistics, faked test results, and an ongoing need for the pandemic to continue to justify mail in voting... what is the easiest conclusion?

LostMarbels · Jul 30, 2020

Theodiskaz said:
I'm sorry, what do you mean? Autistic Christian here

I was wondering if that was an ultimatum. But by your response I believe that was not your intention. My apologies.

Running2win · Jul 30, 2020

Gregorikos said:
Are you now saying exposure to Coronavirus isn't a threat?

Because if Coronavirus is a threat, then you are a threat to me if we meet in public. I'm asking you to wear a mask to mitigate that threat to me, even if you think it doesn't work. YOU might not think it has any effect, but the CDC says it does, and that's why many states are now mandating it.

CDC on Face Coverings: Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Can't read? The CDC just made this up for covid. Remember when they were saying not to wear masks? Then China said, why aren't you wearing masks-the ones who make them all.

A N95 and properly fitted is the only on that will. A shield for droplets is better than a mask. If you sneeze or cough, do it in your elbow. It's about microns. And, the vast majority of people that get it won't get sick, some will, some will die. The vast majority will recover.

Running2win · Jul 30, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
The notion that science has determined that masks are going to save us from Chinese Coronavirus (or any other disease) is utter tosh. Anyone telling you science is settled on any issue should raise a red flag. On masks, science isn't close to settled.

The British Journal of Medicine says cloth masks are 97% useless. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

A study of the more serious 1918 flu pandemic showed masks useless. The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Another study shows cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

Other studies show cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks, even the latter are questionable. They include:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

Error - Cookies Turned Off
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744

Masks are associated with oxygen deprivation and increased rates of infection according to these studies:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29395560/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30169507/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/

A 2015 British study on surgical masks revealed masks don't really protect patient or surgeon very much. And that's in sterile settings. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...-KkzpdkmzltnAf-GXp7gMeQkkyeZJ6gEs7G5h8PHln_R0

Finally, one New England Journal of Medicine editorial acknowledged the uselessness of masks but demanded universal masking nonetheless less for its placebo effect. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

There is plenty of evidence out there that masks and mask mandates aren't working and in fact are causing harm. They're a placebo to make you think you're protected and to make politicians look like they're doing something when they're in reality doing nothing.

Do your own research.

Thanks for the helpful info Redwing! A media hyped snow job for the most part. People love placebos and big Daddy Gov telling them what to do. Just think how much the drug companies will make on the vaccine that will only work on about 46% of the people, and how much our gov (us) will have to pay for it.

loveofourlord · Jul 30, 2020

LostMarbels said:
Yeah, well... we also had testing sites reporting 100% infection rate, and the CDC among others are conflating figures.

I'm trying to figure out how to look up death certificates. Because to be honest there is no Alarm and panic where I am at.

The 100% infection rate has 0 to do with # of deaths. Though texas did apparently accidently add 150 due to changes to death cirtificates.

Radagast · Jul 31, 2020

Theodiskaz said:
False

Nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about.

R0 for measles is around 20. R0 for Covid-19 is around 2.4.

Covid-19 is much, much less infectious than measles, because measles is airborne.

Silly Uncle Wayne · Jul 31, 2020

LoricaLady said:
Well, I gotta say this one last thing. Germs and viruses haven't changed in their responses to masks or "antiseptics" in the last month, or at any time. The CDC studies stand for this year, last year and next year and into the future in general. But if you don't agree, oh well. Wear your mask and cover everything with the chemicals the CDC says are useless. Up to you.

It does appear that you are sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "not listening! not listening!"

Science is an ongoing process, and it is definite that scientific thought is changing on the subject because more experimentation is occurring in the wake of COVID. earlier in the pandemic WHO were not recommending masks, but during June, they changed their statement to recommend them.

Every study I have seen shows the same results - wearing a mask makes little difference in preventing you from contracting COVID, but it makes a huge difference in preventing you from spreading COVID.

If you loved your neighbour you would be wearing a mask when interacting with them.

Masks Are Essentially Worthless

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