Marcus Jastrow Hebrew - Aramaic Dictionary: Daniel 9:24. 70 weeks are "determined" to cut, cut off, determine Strongs: 2852. chathak

[tall73]

Here are the uses by term:

Chazon​

​

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a chazon appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.

Dan 8:2 And I saw in the chazon and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the chazon and I was at the Ulai canal.​

Up to this point Chazon is being used to refer to the whole vision.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the chazon concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”​

At this critical point, however, you have the term used in the question, of which the response regarding the 2,300 evening/mornings is the answer.

So as you note, this is inconsistent with the 2,300 being the mareh later if it is a technical term. It appears reversed.

Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the chazon I sought to understand it.

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the chazon is for the time of the end.”​

Well, which would be the chazon? It seems to have referred to the whole thing, and to the 2,300 days. It doesn't appear to be a technical term. The vision of the ram in particular is not that far out in time.

Daniel 8:26b but seal up the chazon for it refers to many days from now.”​

​

If this is contrasted with the Mareh, in the first clause, as you suggested earlier, then this is the larger vision, and not the 2,300 days.

Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the chazon at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both chazon and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.​

Here the term seems to be more used generically for visions, including in vs. 24 which seems to broadly refer to prophetic visions and prophecies to that point.

Mareh:​

Dan 8:15b And behold, there stood before me one having the mareh of a man.​

Seems to be a usage in keeping with that in chapter 1, of simply describing the appearance.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the mareh

Dan 8:26 The mareh of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true

Dan 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the mareh and did not understand it.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the mareh​

​

Again, this doesn't seem to be consistently a technical term as both terms are applied to the 2,300 evening/mornings.

And if taken as a technical term, it is hard to understand how the chazon could be for many days in the future.

 

[tall73]

you answered your own objection, the temple was in ruins how would it be trampled in the future, hence the 70 weeks? I never noticed that before.

It doesn't actually answer the question I asked. It does point out that Daniel did not understand, and wanted more information, which the 70 weeks provided.

But it does not indicate that the timeline was not already stated in Daniel 8.

And if the timeline for chapter 8 was being now pinpointed in 9, you would think that would be mentioned.

um, did you read the post? the connection in with the word Mareh in Daniel 8:26 and 9:23 the evening and morning and the 70 weeks of years are directly connected.

But the problem is both terms are associated with the 2,300 evening mornings. As you indicated, they are reversed later. They don't seem to be consistent.

I have the answer but cannot tell you on the forum. I don't want it repeated anywhere. It is my surprise. in fact your objection just clarified even more. Thank-you. If you figure it out keep it to yourself. I've worked on this for 18 years and don't want you swooping in and taking credit for it or stealing my work.

That is fine. And the insight that Daniel was troubled by the notion of the yet-to-be-rebuilt temple being destroyed again is not a new thought by any means. A number of commentators point it out. So I would not be taking credit for any of that.

you answered this objection. The temple is in ruins how can it be trampled? again. it would have to be rebuilt first. hence the 70 weeks.

Right, the purpose of the 70 weeks to answer Daniel's puzzlement is clear.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

It doesn't actually answer the question I asked. It does point out that Daniel did not understand, and wanted more information, which the 70 weeks provided.

But it does not indicate that the timeline was not already stated in Daniel 8.

And if the timeline for chapter 8 was being now pinpointed in 9, you would think that would be mentioned.

It was, he said he came to explain the Mareh.

But the problem is both terms are associated with the 2,300 evening mornings. As you indicated, they are reversed later. They don't seem to be consistent.

That is part of the confusion, that is why he did not understand. That is why the angel had to come and explain it. It was out of order on purpose.

That is fine. And the insight that Daniel was troubled by the notion of the yet-to-be-rebuilt temple being destroyed again is not a new thought by any means. A number of commentators point it out. So I would not be taking credit for any of that.



Right, the purpose of the 70 weeks to answer Daniel's puzzlement is clear.

So what was part of the confusion
1. The temple is in ruins we're never getting out of here.
2. The temple is in ruins, but it is being rebuilt and trampled? When is it going to be rebuilt. Answered in chapter 9.
3. The 2300 days are now part of the Mareh rather than the Hazon

All of that led to the confusion hence the need for clarification. Once you understood that the temple was going to be rebuilt and they were getting out of there in a short amount of time the angel came and explained the confusion between the Hasan and the Mareh.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Point of order here, I noticed that the Mareh is explained with a time signature in Daniel 9, and the Hazon is explained in Daniel 10 through 12 with the time signature from Daniel 8. That indicates how we're supposed to interpret the 1290 ,1335

 

[tall73]

It was out of order on purpose.

This is the part I am not quite understanding. I read your explanation above. Can you put it in different words? Why would it be out of order on purpose?

 

[tall73]

Point of order here, I noticed that the Mareh is explained with a time signature in Daniel 9, and the Hazon is explained in Daniel 10 through 12 with the time signature from Daniel 8. That indicates how we're supposed to interpret the 1290 ,1335

Are you then interpreting chapter 8 with the sabbatical years? And how would that work with evening/mornings?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Are you then interpreting chapter 8 with the sabbatical years? And how would that work with evening/mornings?

Days of atonement. Yearly event

 

[Adventist Heretic]

This is the part I am not quite understanding. I read your explanation above. Can you put it in different words? Why would it be out of order on purpose?

The 2300 days when it was originally given was part of the hazon, when he closes the passage in Daniel 8:26 he moves it to the Mareh, that is confusing, because that is a conflict. Why. I think it's on purpose. After he figured out that there were about to be released, we're not going to be there forever. The temple was going to be rebuilt, the angel came to explain him the Mareh. The part that was still confusing. This is why 70 weeks is part, of the 2300 days, the 70 weeks explain the confusion.

In addition to this, 2300 days are explained with a longer time period in Daniel 10 through 12. Validating the idea of the day year, counting days of atonement.

 

[tall73]

The 2300 days when it was originally given was part of the hazon, when he closes the passage in Daniel 8:26 he moves it to the Mareh, that is confusing, because that is a conflict. Why. I think it's on purpose. After he figured out that there were about to be released, we're not going to be there forever. The temple was going to be rebuilt, the angel came to explain him the Mareh. The part that was still confusing. This is why 70 weeks is part, of the 2300 days, the 70 weeks explain the confusion.

In addition to this, 2300 days are explained with a longer time period in Daniel 10 through 12. Validating the idea of the day year, counting days of atonement.

Let me know if you draw it all up and publish.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Here are the uses by term:

Chazon​

​

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a chazon appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.​

​

Dan 8:2 And I saw in the chazon and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the chazon and I was at the Ulai canal.​

Up to this point Chazon is being used to refer to the whole vision.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the chazon concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”​

At this critical point, however, you have the term used in the question, of which the response regarding the 2,300 evening/mornings is the answer.

So as you note, this is inconsistent with the 2,300 being the mareh later if it is a technical term. It appears reversed.

​

Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the chazon I sought to understand it.​

​

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the chazon is for the time of the end.”​

Well, which would be the chazon? It seems to have referred to the whole thing, and to the 2,300 days. It doesn't appear to be a technical term. The vision of the ram in particular is not that far out in time.

Daniel 8:26b but seal up the chazon for it refers to many days from now.”​

​

If this is contrasted with the Mareh, in the first clause, as you suggested earlier, then this is the larger vision, and not the 2,300 days.

​

​

Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the chazon at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.​

​

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both chazon and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.​

to seal the Chazon, so they are connected here. again another connection between the two. now the Hazon and the Prophet. Prophet what does that mean?b so the vision of the Mareh is about sealing up the Hazon. how odd.

Here the term seems to be more used generically for visions, including in vs. 24 which seems to broadly refer to prophetic visions and prophecies to that point.

I don't think it is broad it is specific. try looking at it that way.

Mareh:​

Dan 8:15b And behold, there stood before me one having the mareh of a man.​

Seems to be a usage in keeping with that in chapter 1, of simply describing the appearance.

this is the word for might man or warrior.

​

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the mareh​

​

Dan 8:26 The mareh of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true​

​

notice the "evening & mornings were part of the Hazon now part of Mareh, Why?

Dan 8:27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the mareh and did not understand it.​

Notice it the Marea of the evenings and the mornings that appalled him and confused him this would be consistent with it being out of place.

​

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the mareh​

now he is going to explain the Mareh here.

​

Again, this doesn't seem to be consistently a technical term as both terms are applied to the 2,300 evening/mornings.

And if taken as a technical term, it is hard to understand how the chazon could be for many days in the future.

why is the "many days a problem"

 

[Adventist Heretic]

update: After 18 years of Study I am 100% convinced that the 2300 days are connected to the 70 weeks and end in 1844—details to be published later.

1. You can arrive at 1844, without using a day-year from Ezk and Num.
2. Using only the information in Daniel, you can connect Daniel 8 & 9.
3. the 70 weeks are part of the 2300 evenings & mornings.
I figured it out on July 3, 2024.