WHY IS DANIEL 9:24-27 ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE ?

[parousia70]

Anyway, the most disturbing thing dealing with Preterism is the stressing of the continued importance of national Israel:

Continued? This preterist does not insist national Israel has ANY biblical importance today, So I'm not sure where you are getting that from... certainly not from me.

They still continue as the people of God, the tribulation is all about a city in the mid-east being destroyed, still the literal temple is the holy place, God is concerned enough to detail the events leading up to the destruction of the literal temple.

The destruction of that Literal temple was prophesied to occur, and it did, on time, as prophesied, in fulfillment of "all things written" (Luke 21:22), in fulfillment of the covenantal curses detailed in Leviticus 26 & Deuteronomy 28. That you reject these facts of scripture and history is your stumbling block, not preterism's.

Yet God is not concerned any longer with the nation of Israel

I agree!

The temple was a type of God’s true temple – the body of believers of which Christ is the head. The old temple, old sacrifices, old Israel, the old covenant, old types, and symbols have been fulfilled in the new. So why do Preterist, even covenantal Reformed Preterists, continue to cuddle national Israel as the centerpiece of God’s plan and make all prophecy fulfill itself in a Roman army and a literal Israel?

You seem confused... no preterist I know Continues to "cuddle" national Israel Today. That would be the Dispensationalists...

The destruction of Jerusalem pertains to the devastation and desolation of His church when sinful man is revealed and Satan rules over the congregations blaspheming God and deceiving through false prophets.

No.

The Church can never be shaken, destroyed, prevailed against...

The OC System of temple worship was temporary, the Church is ETERNAL.

That you teach the Church will fall the way the OC temple did, is the error.

I'm sorry friend, but when you the claim that Jesus did not mean what He said, when He said to His disciples directly, "When you see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, Know that it's desolation is near, Then let those in Judea flee to the Mountains", and then claim that AD66-70 did NOT fulfill these words of Christ, It is you who are stumbling and straining against scripture to make your doctrine work, not the preterist.

Go back and start at Heb 12:18, and you will see that the contrast is being made between the Old and New Covenant ages. The author states that God "shook the earth" to establish the Mosaic age, but now in their time he was "shaking once more," for they were receiving the New Covenant kingdom Jesus gave them (Matt 21:43/Heb 12:28/Mark 1:14-15). The Old Covenant age was at that moment (i.e., AD 64-66) waxing old and was "about to vanish away" (Heb 8:13). It did vanish away just about five years later at AD 70, for "in a very, very short while, He who was coming came and did not delay" (Heb 10:37 cf. Matt 21:40).

According to the writer of Hebrews, God was removing the first covenant age so as to establish the second:

--COMPARE THIS--

Hebrews 12:27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace...

--TO THIS--

Hebrews 10:9
Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: he taketh away the first [covenant], that he may establish the second.

--AND TO THIS--

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first [covenant] obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

--AND TO THIS--

2 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11
[God] made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? ... For if that which is fading away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Simply put, the TEMPORARY Old Covenant world was being removed, and the ETERNAL New Covenant World was being erected in its place. All that took place in the last days generation (AD30-70) of the Old Covenant age.

To insist that the Church, prophesied to last forever and ever, The gates of hell NEVER being able to prevail against it, Eternal and UNABLE TO BE SHAKEN throughout all ages unto eternity, is instead failing and about to fall, and is today "Ruled by Satan", as you do, is entirely polar opposite to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles and ought be rejected by any and all honest Bible expositors.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Simply put, the TEMPORARY Old Covenant world was being removed, and the ETERNAL New Covenant World was being erected in its place. All that took place in the last days generation (AD30-70) of the Old Covenant age.

To insist that the Church, prophesied to last forever and ever, The gates of hell NEVER being able to prevail against it, Eternal and UNABLE TO BE SHAKEN throughout all ages unto eternity, is instead failing and about to fall, and is today "Ruled by Satan", as you do, is entirely polar opposite to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles and ought be rejected by any and all honest Bible expositors.

No, no, no...

The old and new congregation is only a collectively of the many called and the Elect within the congregation are the few who are actually chosen. Just like Israel of Old! We are not any better. I do not know where people get the idea that the church is somehow better than old Israel, when the church is just like Israel was... .full of themselves, unfaithful, stubborn, self-righteous, negligent, prideful and in self-denial of their failings. As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun. The elect are still the few who are chosen from among the many called ones.

Romans 9:4-6

• "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
• Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
• Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

God always had a remnant WITHIN the old and new testament congregation. They ALL together are one Bride with Christ. So it is not true that the New Testament congregation is "eternal" because only Elect WITHIN that congregation is eternal while the rest are external. The covenant transition from Old Testament congregation into New Testament congregation with remnant moving from old to new already took place at the Cross within when Christ spoke it. He has rebuilt the fallen tent (old covenant congregation) in three days. And after Pentecost, the church already has been established, no need to wait for physical building of Jerusalem to fell. It means nothing.

Let me give you an example in Zechariah 14 where many people misunderstood what actually happened:

Zechariah 14:4

• "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

The Bible is a spiritual book, not a seismologist's ledger. God's not interested in splitting literal mountains, except to make the point about the cleaving of the Kingdom that a way be made for the Remnant to escape.

Matthew 17:20

• "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Casting out devils is associated with Matthew 17 because it is a kingdom He Christ spoiled, bound Satan so that He might free the captivity of Israel. It is the faith of Christ that moves this mountain, and the mountain in view is not a physical mountain, but a spiritual one. Do you realize that the mountains in God's Word represent Kingdoms? And the kingdom that was removed by the faith of Christ was the one that suffered violence, that the violent took by force? This kingdom was split in two, making a valley that a way could be made for the remnant to escape. The destruction of the kingdom (mountain) cast ito the sea creates a valley that God's people therein might escape. God was NOT talking about Jews fleeing to Jordan from Israel in 70AD or in the future as some dispentatlists believe. rather God is talking about how HIS remnant escape from old testament congregation (kingdom) to the new testament congregation (kingdom) so that the kingdom of God contiuned into the New Testament. This was fulfilled in Christ Jesus by His Faithfulness and His cross. Read about the woman in Revelation 12:

Revelation 12:5-6
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the congregation of Israel. First, she represented national Israel in the old testament and when Christ was born, however after Christ was caught up unto God and to his Throne. The representative of the woman has been transited from Old Testament Israel to where she was allowed to ESCAPE into the wilderness (world), as New Testament Israel under the new covenant, to preach the Gospel there. Again, the woman made up of all chosen remnant from old and new testament, Selah! She is a bride (and mother) of Christ since she is a free woman from above!

You wanted to use the "physical destruction" of the city when you believe was the end of the old covenant, with the so-called "vanish away" theory, so that the new covenant church could begin. I disagree. You can poke on physical stones of the city all you want, but that is not what Christ talked about.

 

[BABerean2]

2 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11
[God] made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? ... For if that which is fading away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Simply put, the TEMPORARY Old Covenant world was being removed, and the ETERNAL New Covenant World was being erected in its place. All that took place in the last days generation (AD30-70) of the Old Covenant age.

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. (Past tense before 70 AD)
2Co 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
2Co 3:11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
2Co 3:12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
2Co 3:13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Verses 14-15 above describe the same spiritual condition that remains among Orthodox Jews today. It did not vanish in 70 AD.


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

.

 

[TribulationSigns]

"Every" defiling is by disobedience, and disobedience only. Physical inanimate things don't defile anything. Just as literal sacrificed animals didn't make anyone clean and righteous or that literal blood doesn't defile a building. It is the command of God not to do something that defiles God's house. And it was this disobedience that left Jerusalem desolate when Christ died. You ask how a Holy Temple is defiled and found abominable by disobedience, I ask how a Holy Temple can be defiled simply by physical blood or something unclean. It's not what's put on something physically that defiles it, but what's inside.

Mark 7:1-4

• "Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
• And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
• For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
• And when they come from the market, except they wash,"

Mark 7:14-16

• "And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
• There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
• If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

Likewise, it's not blood that defiles the Holy Temple of God, it is the works of man "in the Holy Temple" that defile it. Serving other gods, being lawless or disobedient, preaching false doctrines, this defiles the Temple of God!

Christians today, like the Pharisees of old, are so enamored with the church traditions in believing in physical defilement, that they have no understanding of the Spiritual truths that it's what we "do" that defiles the Temple. Christians are defiled by accepting foolish doctrines of the world. Doctrines like worldly reigns, like earthly Kingdoms, like Arminianism, like Grace means liberty to sin, and like departing from the faith and being seduced by lawlessness. This is what defiles the Lord's house, because it defiles the Lord's people. Not a physical building.

1st Corinthians 3:16-19

• "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
• For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

Here is the Holy Temple after Christ's death. It wasn't a Jewish synagogue, it was the church. Here is wisdom, let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast. It's not a physical mark, it's a spiritual mark placed on those of the Church signifying that they are deceived and under bondage to Satan, ruled by the man of sin WITHIN the Holy Temple.

 

[parousia70]

The covenant transition from Old Testament congregation into New Testament congregation with remnant moving from old to new already took place at the Cross within when Christ spoke it. He has rebuilt the fallen tent (old covenant congregation) in three days. And after Pentecost, the church already has been established, no need to wait for physical building of Jerusalem to fell. It means nothing.

Wait a munute...
How Many Gentiles were part of the "gentile church" (as you put it earlier) at it's establishment by Pentecost?

I'll answer that for you.
ZERO.

Knowing this fact, Was the Church, therefore, in your view, Fully Established at the Cross? or Fully Established at Pentecost, even though there were a grand total of ZERO gentiles in it? Or did it require the inclusion of Gentile believers before it could be "fully established"?

In your view, Was the inclusion of the Gentiles prophetically necessary to the establishment of what you yourself call "the gentile church"?

Did the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Church 3.5 years after Pentecost fulfill any prophesy that you are aware of? Or is it that, like you claim of Jerusalem's destruction, the inclusion of the Gentiles in the "Gentile Church" (as you are so desirous to call it) "Means Nothing" since all was fulfilled at the Cross??

 

[parousia70]

Whats the matter? Cat got your tongue?
Are you busy Looking for some wiggle room to allow for SOME Post-Cross Prophetic Fulfillment of the establishment of the Church but not OTHERS?

Is your (now exposed) need to have a certain amount of post cross fulfillment (Gentile inclusion) of Church establishment prophesy giving you trouble since you have been so emphatic that no such need could possibly exist beyond Pentecost?

That's Ok, take all the time you need... I've been posting here since 2002 and have seen your kind come and go... I'll still be around when you finally figure out a "get around" you feel comfortable sharing, and we can examine its validity and logical implications out in the open.

 

[David Kent]

No such thing as the Gentile Church. Just the church. Gentiles have been in the church since at least the entry into the promised land, with Rahab the harlot, and her family, Ruth's second mother in law.

Ruth was another.

 

[jgr]

No such thing as the Gentile Church. Just the church. Gentiles have been in the church since at least the entry into the promised land, with Rahab the harlot, and her family, Ruth's second mother in law.

Ruth was another.

Right. They've in fact been there since the beginning of covenant history. Dispensational racial arguments are manifest bunkum.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.