Seventy Weeks Are Determined Upon Thy People!

[Biblewriter]

If what happened in and around A.D. 70 was so obvious a fulfillment of end time prophecy, why did so few of those Christians that lived shortly after that time still think the prophecies had not been fulfilled?

The concept that these evens were a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies could not gain acceptance until there were very few Christians left that actually knew what had happened.

 

[Quasar92]

Here is an excellent resource on this:

Resources on Daniel’s Seventy Weeks

The link you provided provides well done graphics, but is a complete failure in providing the necessary math to prove which of the four views is the right one, as the OP does.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

The link you provided provides well done graphics, but is a complete failure in providing the necessary math to prove which of the four views is the right one, as the OP does.


Quasar92

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

 

[Quasar92]

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

Claims as documented in the link in the above post is refuted in the following:

Who Confirms a Covenant in Dan.9:27 ? in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Gabriel did not come to Daniel to just show up to give him a prophecy - but he came due to Daniel had been supplicating. So to understand the prophecy you need to go find out why he supplicated. It was about what Jeremiah had written and as to the holy site. That is why we find out those specific things in the message by Gabriel as to the future. 70 weeks is not the only determined time in the message by Gabriel.

70 weeks are determined
and
unto the end of the war - desolations are determined
/this part is not included in the 70 weeks

69 weeks, determined time of war and desolations ends, then the final week of the 70 weeks

The purpose for Gabriel coming to Daniel was for the following reasons:

he Scriptures clearly reveal the 70 year exile of Israel was completed between the 19th year in the reign of king Nebuchanezzar of Babylon and the 6th year in the reign of king Darius of Persia in 516 B.C. From 586 B.C. to 516 B.C. was precisely the 70 years of exile prophecied by Jeremiah The second temple was dedicated in 515 B.C., as recorded above.

In the 20th year in the reign of king Artaxerxes, of Persia, precisely 70 years after the dedication of the second temple in 515 B.C., from 465 B.C. to 445 B.C., his decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem, including the streets and the walls. The precise starting point of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 Weeks of years, God decreed on the destiny of Israel, was 445 B.C., according to Neh.2:1-8, recorded in Dan.9:24-27.
Israel's Sabbatical Year

In reaching a correct understanding of Daniel 9:24-27, it is necessary to understand the circumstances that occasioned the giving of this revelation by God to Daniel. No one questions that it relates to Israel’s Babylonian captivity for failure to observe the sabbatical year, given to Israel by the Lord. But how does that relate to the 70-weeks prophecy? As part of the stipulations in the Mosaic Law Code, Israel was to let her land lay fallow every seventh year.

“Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I shall give you, then the land shall have a sabbath to the Lord. Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its crop, but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard. Your harvest’s aftergrowth you shall not reap, and your grapes of untrimmed vines you shall not gather; the land shall have a sabbatical year. And all of you shall have the sabbath products of the land for food; yourself, and your male and female slaves, and your hired man and your foreign resident, those who live as aliens with you’” (Lev. 25:2-6).

Leviticus 26 provides the sanctions that God would impose upon Israel for the years that they did not obey the specifications of a sabbatical year.

"Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it." (Lev. 26:34-35).

"For the land shall be abandoned by them, and shall make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, shall be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes." (Lev. 26:43).

The Lord clearly revealed to Israel on how they were keeping or not keeping His Law in the historical book of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles and why Israel was sent away to Babylon for 70 years in the following passage:

"And those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. all the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete." (2 Chr. 36:20-21).

What passage in Jeremiah was the statement in Chronicles referring to? The following two references provide the answer.

And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years (Jer. 25:11).

For thus says the Lord, “When seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place.” (Jer. 29:10).

It is clear from the above passages that God had a specific reason behind the deportation of the Southern Kingdom (Judah) to Babylon for 70 years. This would mean that Israel violated the sabbatical year 70 times. The Jews entered the Promised Land around 1450 b.c. and were deported to Babylon around 600 b.c. This means that they were in the land about 850 years before the Babylonian deportation. Had they disobeyed the sabbatical year commandment every seventh year, it would mean that they should have been in captivity for more than 121 years. Instead, they were held captive for 70 years, meaning that they were disobedient for only 490 of the 850 years in the land. This would mean that there were breaks or gaps in the accumulation of the 490 years, during the 850-year period, that resulted in Israel’s 70-year captivity. Why is this important? Because many of the critics of the literal interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 insist that it is unreasonable to have gaps in that 490-year period. Which is false, since there were many gaps in the 490-year period related to the Babylonian Captivity.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Daniel 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

And, on the other hand, according to the Scriptures:

The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.


First of all, have you ever wondered how the elect, Jesus angels gather from one end of the heavens to the other got there at Jesus second coming to the earth, on Mt.24:31? We know the elect they gather from the four winds refer to Israel. So how did those elec get into heaven?

Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28:"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

A look at 1 Thes.4:13-17:

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below. Jerome translated the Greek "apostasia," to the Latin "discessio" in vs 3, which means "departure" also.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:

In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," the rapture of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

Notice where you find the raptured Church returning with Jesus from the wedding in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, in His second coming in Zech,14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.

Also notice how Jesus angels are gathering His elect from the four winds [Israel] and from the one end of the heavens to the other [Church]. Would you care to hazard a guess as to how the Church got into heaven at Jesus second coming and why they are seen returning with Him in His armies from heaven in Rev.19:14?


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

You're funny. You are not anyone I have to answer to, people can disagree with you and many people do. Daniel 9 is probably the most difficult to understand prophecy in the entirety of scriptures. Your view is not the only one on the subject, so do us all a favor and stop acting like it is.

<SNIP>


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

So how did those elec get into heaven?

They died.

.

 

[Quasar92]

This is a MISNOMER that has been used for years, and although technically you could say Israel being reborn is a sign from Ezekiel, I don't think its mentioned here. The Fig Tree Parable is Jesus telleing his Disciples that ALL OF THESE SIGNS must come to pass before I return, after all, that was the question they asked him, when will thy return be or the SIGN(S) of thy coming be.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

1.What Generation? Not the Generation that sees ONLY the Temple and Jerusalem Destroyed, and the Wars and Rumors of Wars is the same thing.

2. Not the Generation that ONLY sees the Nation rise against Nation, pestilence, famine, earthquakes and the Disciples Martyred and betrayed. The love of many has to wax cold and the Gospel has to be preached into ALL THE WORLD, but wait, that is NOT ENOUGH SIGNS.

3. Jesus then says you must all see the Abomination of Desolation come to pass, and Israel Fleeing into the Wilderness, and the Greatest Times of Trouble that has ever been seen. Then you must see the False Prophet and a Fake Christ working Miracles and wonders. BUT WAIT....

4. You also have to see the Sun darkened, the Moon turn Blood red and Stars will fall from heaven (These Stars might be Satan getting kicked out of Heaven) !!!

THEN..........Only after you have see ALL OF THESE THINGS, Jesus will be about Ready to show up in the Eastern Skies. I think that ends the lesson and verses 36-51 doesn't really go with Matthew 24 imho. Its the Rapture. It might even go with Matthew 25 and the 10 Virgins.

Point being I do not thing this is about Israel being REBORN because Jesus never mentions that in the whole chapter. Its about ALL of the SIGNS having to come to pass before Jesus can return.

I wold agree with your assessment. But the prable of Jesus about the fig tree, I would not call a "misnomer."
It is prophetic in that Israel has returned as a nation, as a most important aspect of it. Ez. need not be referred to because the prophecy of Israel being restored is numerous, as found in other passages of Scriture.


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

They died.

.[/QUOTE


In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus is addressing Israel about His second coming WITH His Church, from their marriage in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-8, in verse 14. The angels gather the ELECT/Church, from one end of the heavens to the other, and Israel, from the four winds.



Quasar92 ]

 

[jgr]

You are correct that Justyn was not speaking of Daniel 9. He was speaking of Daniel 7, which speaks only of the first half of the seventieth week. But he was speaking of this half week as something that will take place in the future.

But the so-called "epistle of Barnabas," whose actual age and authorship is unknown, speaks of a writing that is not even in the Bible at all. For neither the prophecy of the seventy weeks, nor any other passage in the entire Bible, says anything even approximately like "And it shall come to pass, when the week is beingaccomplished, the temple of God shall be built gloriously in the
name of the Lord."

None of the words "seven" or "seventy" or "seventieth" or "week" or "weeks" appear in Daniel 7. The chapter has nothing to do therewith.

The age of the epistle is no later than 132 AD. You are correct; the authorship is indeterminate.

Was the writer of the epistle not permitted to quote something of which you are unaware?

 

[Biblewriter]

None of the words "seven" or "seventy" or "seventieth" or "week" or "weeks" appear in Daniel 7. The chapter has nothing to do therewith.

The age of the epistle is no later than 132 AD. You are correct; the authorship is indeterminate.

Was the writer of the epistle not permitted to quote something of which you are unaware?

Daniel 7 indeed makes no mention of the word week. But it clearly states "a time, times, and half a time," which is half of a week, clearly referring to the division of the seventieth weelkin Daniel 9. And I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence.

 

[jgr]

Daniel 7 indeed makes no mention of the word week. But it clearly states "a time, times, and half a time," which is half of a week, clearly referring to the division of the seventieth weelkin Daniel 9. And I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence.

Time, times, and the dividing of time refers to a 1260-year period from the 6th to the 18th centuries during which the little horn of the Roman papacy wore out the saints.

If you have no idea what I meant, don't worry further about it.

 

[Biblewriter]

Time, times, and the dividing of time refers to a 1260-year period from the 6th to the 18th centuries during which the little horn of the Roman papacy wore out the saints.

If you have no idea what I meant, don't worry further about it.

Justyn's comments were about the foolishness of interpreting the prophecy to mean anything other than three and a half years. Which, by the way is half a seven year "week."

 

[jgr]

Justyn's comments were about the foolishness of interpreting the prophecy to mean anything other than three and a half years. Which, by the way is half a seven year "week."

It's apparent that you need to visit your optometrist.

From your own quote:

"...the man of sin must, at the shortest, reign three hundred and fifty years..."

 

[Quasar92]

None of the words "seven" or "seventy" or "seventieth" or "week" or "weeks" appear in Daniel 7. The chapter has nothing to do therewith.

The age of the epistle is no later than 132 AD. You are correct; the authorship is indeterminate.

Was the writer of the epistle not permitted to quote something of which you are unaware?

First of all, Daniel was among the brightest of the children of Judah, Nebochadnezzar, king of Babylon, carried of to Chaldea in 604 B.C., prior to his second raid on Jerusalem to take the rest of Judah into captivity, and destroy Solomon's temple in 586 B.C. Where did you get the idea Daniel's book was not written until 132 A.D.? Review the following:

Daniel’s Prayer
Dam.9:1 "In the first year of Darius kingdom— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventyC)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-21991C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting,D)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-21992D" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> and in sackcloth and ashes."

A review of the first 3 chapters of Daniel reveal the time frame in which he lived.

As to the mention of "weeks," in the KJV, or "sevens," in the NIV, as well as the number 70, in Dan., review the following:

Dan.9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


Quasar92

 

[Biblewriter]

It's apparent that you need to visit your optometrist.

From your own quote:

"...the man of sin must, at the shortest, reign three hundred and fifty years..."

You are lifting these words entirely out of their context.

The statement from which you lifted those few words was:

"But you, being ignorant of how long he will have dominion, hold another opinion. For you interpret the “time” as being a hundred years. But if this is so, the man of sin must, at the shortest, reign three hundred and fifty years, in order that we may compute that which is said by the holy Daniel — “and times” — to be two times only. All this I have said to you in digression, in order that you at length may be persuaded of what has been declared against you by God, that you are foolish sons..."

So what Justyn was actually saying was exactly what I said, and the very opposite of what you imagine he said.

And Justyn clearly put this "time, times, and a half" in his own future by saying, "he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High."

 

[jgr]

You are lifting these words entirely out of their context.

The statement from which you lifted those few words was:

"But you, being ignorant of how long he will have dominion, hold another opinion. For you interpret the “time” as being a hundred years. But if this is so, the man of sin must, at the shortest, reign three hundred and fifty years, in order that we may compute that which is said by the holy Daniel — “and times” — to be two times only. All this I have said to you in digression, in order that you at length may be persuaded of what has been declared against you by God, that you are foolish sons..."

So what Justyn was actually saying was exactly what I said, and the very opposite of what you imagine he said.

And Justyn clearly put this "time, times, and a half" in his own future by saying, "he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High."

Where does Martyr say that the interval is 3 1/2 years?

 

[jgr]

First of all, Daniel was among the brightest of the children of Judah, Nebochadnezzar, king of Babylon, carried of to Chaldea in 604 B.C., prior to his second raid on Jerusalem to take the rest of Judah into captivity, and destroy Solomon's temple in 586 B.C. Where did you get the idea Daniel's book was not written until 132 A.D.? Review the following:

Daniel’s Prayer
Dam.9:1 "In the first year of Darius kingdom— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventyC)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-21991C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting,D)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-21992D" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> and in sackcloth and ashes."

A review of the first 3 chapters of Daniel reveal the time frame in which he lived.

As to the mention of "weeks," in the KJV, or "sevens," in the NIV, as well as the number 70, in Dan., review the following:

Dan.9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


Quasar92

You're barking up the wrong post(s). Go back and review the sequence.

 

[Biblewriter]

Where does Martyr say that the interval is 3 1/2 years?

It is obvious that he did not state this. But he clearly put it in his own future, and spoke of it as being the length of time that a particular future evil individual would reign.

Instead of stating that this meant thee and a half years, he simply said that we knew how long it would be from the scripture he quoted, and then demonstrated the obvious error in the interpretation being used at the time by the Jews.

In stating that we know how long it would be from this scripture, Justyn was referring to the fact that in scripture, this is period is variously specified as "a time, times, and half a time," half a week, forty two months, and 1260 days. And when we remember that an ancient Jewish year consisted of 12 months of 30 days each, all these periods work out to be exactly the same amount of time.