Justification by Faith Defended!

[redleghunter]

So it is possible for them to fall into Antinomianism?

James said that they had respect of persons by giving favor to the rich brethren and not giving any honor or favor to the poor brethren (on the same equal level) is a huge problem for them.

James said, "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9).

Seems to me they have already sinned and James wanted to bring home the point even more that if they have faith without works to show for it, their faith is dead. Meaning, if they have respect of persons like they just did, their faith is dead. So they need to repent and or get their heart right with the Lord (by seeking His forgiveness).

James did qualify what he was speaking of:

James 2: NASB
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


James equated mere acknowledgement of God as not the saving faith of a Christian. It's important to take the above into account when he issues verse 24. As verse 23 he makes it clear as well:

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

I have doubts the same James who presided over the Jerusalem council wanted his audience in the epistle to come away with thinking our works somehow justify or save us. At the Council of Jerusalem James endorsed the speech of Peter where he stated:

Acts 15: NASB
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

When you see James made no objection to the above, and add to the fact he defined dead faith as that of what the demons believe, we see James is speaking of saving faith produces works.

Why it is important I believe we must look at the Scriptures systematically.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are asking the right questions. Thanks for that. I'll let Paul answer this.

Galatians 6:1Brothers,a if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

If they believe in Christ for everything in Salvation. But are struggling we need to help them. Restore with Love and Gentleness. Help carry their burden. By doing this we fulfill the Law of Christ! We are not counting how many good works we do. We just do, because we want to do. We don't look for rewards or recognition for it. If that is the case, then you are doing it, just to receive something in return from them. Basically they are in debt to you. How is that Christian Love to your neighbor?

First, based on your response, I get the impression that you may believe David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Would I be correct?

Second, I do not see how the passage you quote supports what you said. If I understood you correctly, it sounded like you are saying that a believer can be Antinomian and saved as long as they trust in Jesus 100% for their salvation. So if this is true, then a believer can be an axe murdering rapist and be saved as long as they believe in Jesus? Is that what you are saying?

Well, let's look back. Peter denied Christ 3 times. Is Peter saved?

Not at the time he denied Christ.... no.
Although Scripture does not record it, Peter undoubtedly confessed of this sin to the Lord.

Moses was band from entering the Promise Land of Canaan for his sin against God. Is Moses saved?

The Bible does not say what kind of sin Moses committed here. It does not say it was a sin unto death or a sin not unto death.

The Great King David, committed adultery & murder. Was King David saved?

No. Not while he was committing these sins he was not saved. David became saved again when he repented of his sins to the Lord in Psalms 51. If such were not the case, then Hitler could be saved by believing in Jesus (despite him murdering tons of Jews).

So let me ask you. Have you invited the poor or homeless into your house? Have you feed the poor and given them money to survive? Have you ever had ill thoughts toward another person? Or whatever you thought was a sin? How are we different?

No offense. But I learned a long time ago not to share my faith with those who do not believe the same way as I do in regards to Scripture. For what I do for the Lord in regards to the poor is not your business. I prefer my good deeds to be done in secret before the Father (as Scripture says) so as to be rewarded openly. But if a believer does happen to stumble on their road to recovery in overcoming sin in this life, they confess of those sins to the Lord with a Godly sorrow. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When you think you are something, when your not, you deceived yourself. The devil wants us to be full of pride, and ego.

Where did I ever say we are something? I believe any or all good work a believer does is by the power of God. I cannot boast in any good work that I do. All good works done in my life is by God working in me. So I will boast in the Lord and not myself. So you are seeing something in what I believe that is not there.

Should the people in James 2 not help out their neighbor here, who are struggling with their Faith???

The brethren in James 2 had transgressed the Law of loving their neighbor by the fact that they gave favor to the rich brethren and yet, they separated the poor brethren (because they were ashamed of them). James says that faith without works is dead as a part of making his point to them. Can a dead faith save? No.

James says he is justified by works and not by faith alone in James 2:24.
You either believe James 2:24 when Paul says we are justified by works or you don't believe that. The choice to believe James is up to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James did qualify what he was speaking of:

James 2: NASB
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


James equated mere acknowledgement of God as not the saving faith of a Christian. It's important to take the above into account when he issues verse 24. As verse 23 he makes it clear as well:

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

I have doubts the same James who presided over the Jerusalem council wanted his audience in the epistle to come away with thinking our works somehow justify or save us.

Yet, James says very clearly in James 2:24.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

At the Council of Jerusalem James endorsed the speech of Peter where he stated:

Acts 15: NASB
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

When you see James made no objection to the above, and add to the fact he defined dead faith as that of what the demons believe, we see James is speaking of saving faith produces works.

Why it is important I believe we must look at the Scriptures systematically.

Yes, Peter is talking about Initial Salvation vs. being justified by circumcision or the keeping of the Old Law (and it's ceremonies).

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" (Galatians 2:3).

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

Keep in mind Paul, Peter, James, John, and others did not speak about how we are not supposed to keep the commands of Jesus or the commands that came from them.

Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Abraham never actually sacrificed his son, Abraham only had the intent to perform that work. Are you claiming that one work added to faith is sufficient grounds for salvation?

Did I say one work is sufficient? No. We are saved by God's grace + good works is what I said before. Obviously Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son Isaac was not the only good work he did. Faith without works is dead. Matthew 25:30 says that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Gnashing of teeth is something that wolves also do.

Side Note:

Oh, and what is the alternative to: Salvation = God's grace + good works?
I see the opposite of that equation as: Salvation = God's grace + evil works.

It cannot be no works unless a person is the thief on the cross or unless they had the gospel preached to them shortly before they were going to die in their bed.

 

[amariselle]

Sorry for the stupid question. Where is the Great Northern Wilderness?

Ha ha, Canada

 

[redleghunter]

Yet, James says very clearly in James 2:24.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only." (James 2:24).



Yes, Peter is talking about Initial Salvation vs. being justified by circumcision or the keeping of the Old Law (and it's ceremonies).

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" (Galatians 2:3).

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

Keep in mind Paul, Peter, James, John, and others did not speak about how we are not supposed to keep the commands of Jesus or the commands that came from them.

Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Thanks for the excellent proof texts showing the Council of Jerusalem rejected saved by Grace through faith in Christ's finished work plus something else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for the excellent proof texts showing the Council of Jerusalem rejected saved by Grace through faith in Christ's finished work plus something else.

They were referring to the Law of Moses (the Old Law) and not the New Law given to us by Jesus Christ and followers (within the pages of the New Testament). So no. Acts of the Apostles 15 does not help you here, my friend.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man speaks contrary to the word of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing.

Jesus said if we look upon a woman in lust, our whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). So if the brethren spoke against these words of Jesus at the Jerusalem counsel, they would have been proud and knew nothing (according to what Paul said later to Timothy). So obviously they were speaking about the Old Law and it's ceremonies and not the New Law given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

 

[redleghunter]

They were referring to the Law of Moses (the Old Law) and not the New Law given to us by Jesus Christ and followers (within the pages of the New Testament). So no. Acts of the Apostles 15 does not help you here, my friend.

The works James speaks of in James 2 are from the Law of Moses and summarized by Christ:

Matthew 22:40

Matthew 5 is a discourse on the Law.

When James speaks of taking care of the poor he is most likely alluding to Isaiah 58:10-12

Taking care of the widow and orphan Exodus 22:22-23

This is part of the moral law which is deeply embedded in Torah.

Plus, Ephesians chapter 2 is not speaking of circumcision nor specifically the Law of Moses:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The audience above were Gentiles not Jews as we find out in the following verses. Paul does not mention works here as according to the Law, but works in general.

The works =circumcised and Law of Moses does not work in a Gentile audience as we see in Ephesians. And note in this passage Paul says by Grace through faith we are saved. Not just justified.

 

[redleghunter]

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

That's speaking of the change in Covenant yes. And the Law there is the ceremonial law, not the moral law you argue is required to be followed for justification.

Or relationship with the Law is found here:

Romans 8: NASB
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Invalidusername]

Did I say one work is sufficient? No. We are saved by God's grace + good works is what I said before. Obviously Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son Isaac was not the only good work he did. Faith without works is dead. Matthew 25:30 says that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Gnashing of teeth is something that wolves also do.

Side Note:

Oh, and what is the alternative to: Salvation = God's grace + good works?
I see the opposite of that equation as: Salvation = God's grace + evil works.

It cannot be no works unless a person is the thief on the cross or unless they had the gospel preached to them shortly before they were going to die in their bed.

The problem is you are taking sections and single verses and using those very instanced arguments to create an entire argument of theology. This isn't how it works. The Bible is a whole cohesive book and it does not contradict itself.

You have read CLEARLY and UNMISTAKABLY the verses cited by previous posters in Romans that state it is NOT BY WORKS but BY FAITH. You choose to ignore it. Those verses you have completely glossed over. I don't know why you have chosen to ignore those verses but it is concerning.

Now I would suggest you reread everything in context and think about the Bible as one giant book that isn't segmented. Think about what the author intended and why he said what he said.

If you show up to judgement day and you say, "Well, I was pretty good. Jesus helped kinda but it was primarily me." That will be the WRONG answer.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Looks like most of the gang is back. Poor mods.

I couldn't help but think about the 80's Rocky movies after reading your post:

 

[klutedavid]

Did I say one work is sufficient? No.

Yes you did, you quoted James.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?"

See Jason, in black and white, James is claiming that Abraham's one act justified him. Your quoting of James means that you agree with James, one work alone is sufficient for justification!

We are saved by God's grace + good works is what I said before. Obviously Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son Isaac was not the only good work he did.

That is not what James wrote, James stated that Abraham was justified by that single work. I repeat, Abraham never did sacrifice his son, that work was an incomplete work!

We are not saved by Grace + works, never ever.

The real works is all about love from a pure heart.

Love is the obligation, the debt we owe, but we are never justified before God, on the basis of that love.

James is actually talking about real faith, a perfect faith.

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

 

[redleghunter]

It seems like he might agree.
I've found, on these forums, that some cannot explain the difference between Jstfcn and Sanctfcn.
This is a problem.

I agree. Part of the issue may be understanding whose or Whose righteousness saves us.

When we look at it from that perspective we find we are Justified, set apart and sanctified and glorified by the righteousness of Christ in us.

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21–22).

 

[redleghunter]

....
throughout the teaches in the OT and NT and especially Jesus teachings......

Faith was always less important than love.....
which is the greatest commandment

Faith alone without love is NOTHING....according to 1 corinthians 13

LOVE is the standard for salvation....
and if it is Love this can only come from a long term relationsihp with Jesus Christ

John 21:16
Jesus didnt ask Peter about his faith...but asked him if he loved him.....
as Peter earlier declared Jesus to be the Christ proving his faith.....

mathew 16:16

I think 1 Corinthians 13 actually says "I have all faith" and not faith alone. These are gifts Paul is speaking of not saving faith.

 

[redleghunter]

I Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Love Luther. Luther was my favorite when I first got introduce to the Reformation.

Had this on the previous thread which is from Lutheran Satire site. A pastor uses these to teach Sunday school :

 

[Kenny'sID]

If anyone adds to the finished work of Christ it robs God of His Glory.

I hear that often enough here...what finished work are you referring to?

Also, can you please put some explanation behind it, like how it pertains here?

Some of us believe, Christs end of the deal was finished but we aren't finished until the return of Christ or our death, then wherever we stand at that point is what determines where we go from there. As the parable of the sewer describes, anything can happen after we are saved.

Matthew 24:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[redleghunter]

I hear that often enough here...what finished work are you referring to?

Is there any question of the finished work of Christ?

 

[redleghunter]

As the parable of the sewer describes, anything can happen after we are saved.

I'm not familiar with this parable. Are you sure it is not actually a political campaign advertisement?

 

[ladodgers6]

First, based on your response, I get the impression that you may believe David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Would I be correct?

Second, I do not see how the passage you quote supports what you said. If I understood you correctly, it sounded like you are saying that a believer can be Antinomian and saved as long as they trust in Jesus 100% for their salvation. So if this is true, then a believer can be an axe murdering rapist and be saved as long as they believe in Jesus? Is that what you are saying?



Not at the time he denied Christ.... no.
Although Scripture does not record it, Peter undoubtedly confessed of this sin to the Lord.



The Bible does not say what kind of sin Moses committed here. It does not say it was a sin unto death or a sin not unto death.



No. Not while he was committing these sins he was not saved. David became saved again when he repented of his sins to the Lord in Psalms 51. If such were not the case, then Hitler could be saved by believing in Jesus (despite him murdering tons of Jews).



No offense. But I learned a long time ago not to share my faith with those who do not believe the same way as I do in regards to Scripture. For what I do for the Lord in regards to the poor is not your business. I prefer my good deeds to be done in secret before the Father (as Scripture says) so as to be rewarded openly. But if a believer does happen to stumble on their road to recovery in overcoming sin in this life, they confess of those sins to the Lord with a Godly sorrow. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



Where did I ever say we are something? I believe any or all good work a believer does is by the power of God. I cannot boast in any good work that I do. All good works done in my life is by God working in me. So I will boast in the Lord and not myself. So you are seeing something in what I believe that is not there.



The brethren in James 2 had transgressed the Law of loving their neighbor by the fact that they gave favor to the rich brethren and yet, they separated the poor brethren (because they were ashamed of them). James says that faith without works is dead as a part of making his point to them. Can a dead faith save? No.

James says he is justified by works and not by faith alone in James 2:24.
You either believe James 2:24 when Paul says we are justified by works or you don't believe that. The choice to believe James is up to you.

Sorry, its late. I'll reply tomorrow. I am not avoiding your post.

 

[ladodgers6]

Had this on the previous thread which is from Lutheran Satire site. A pastor uses these to teach Sunday school :

That was hilarious. I needed that.