Justification by Faith Defended!

[zoidar]

Ever single person who has ever heard or read the account of Abraham offering his son, Issac, is aware of what he did and therefore knows he did indeed have true faith.

Also, remember that Abraham was declared righteous by faith in the sight of God 25 years before Issac was even born. Those who love to quote James to support works based salvation always seem to prefer conveniently skipping this verse:

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. - James 2:23



Here are the verses from Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works...

Those verses speak for themselves, no one is justified to God by works.

Wasn't it so that Abraham acted on his belief. If he hadn't acted on the belief, would the belief itself count him as righteous?

 

[zoidar]

So let me understand what you are suggesting here. You are saying that sinners can provide righteous acts to merit salvation from God? I hope you understand that Justification & Sanctification are distinct from each other. To place any works of the sinner in the Justification category, turns it into a legalistic salvation not based on Mercy or Grace, but on demands of the Law.

Justified by Faith​

Galatians 2:15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Now understand we are talking about how a sinner is justified before a Holy God! What hangs over every sinner is the curse of the Law. So before anything else, this curse needs to be taken care of. But there is a major problem. No flesh will be justified through the law. Why is Paul preaching this? To drive sinners away from their own filthy rags of righteousness; or what they think are righteous works! To Christ who saves the ungodly (Romans 4:5). God does not Justify the Righteous, but the ungodly!!!! Think about that before you reply. Why does God justify the one who does NOT WORK, but the one who believes in God who justifies the ungodly! Why?

No one is justified through works of the Mosaic Law. To be Justified you give your life to Jesus, and for that you need to believe, then you follow Jesus as your Lord, and for that you need obedience and works.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, all believers can fall into this. But remember that Christ dies for the sins of believers too! As Graeme Goldsworthy once wrote, "Even believers need to hear the Gospel everyday".


James is preaching Antinomianism to them. They HAVE faith, but think they do not need works. True Faith in Christ produces works! This is what James is telling them. Why would James being making a contrast between Faith vs Faith with works, of they weren't believers already? James is admonishing them, and getting them back on track per se.

Yes true faith indeed produces works and what is true faith? True faith is believe in someone, and be obedient to what that person says, then surely there will be works.

 

[zoidar]

So according to you, Christ’s merits ALONE do not justify a sinner?

That is true, you need to receive Jesus as Lord.

 

[amariselle]

Wasn't it so that Abraham acted on his belief. If he hadn't acted on the belief, would the belief itself count him as righteous?

Abraham “acted on his belief” when he showed he was willing to offer Issac. However, God had counted Abraham righteous due to his believing the “promise” 25 years before Issac was even born.

 

[zoidar]

Abraham “acted on his belief” when he showed he was willing to offer Issac. However, God had counted Abraham righteous due to his believing the “promise” 25 years before Issac was even born.

The first thing Abraham did was act in obedience to what he believed. That is works.

Gen 17
"23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him."

Do you think he would have been counted as righteous if he hadn't done that? So the faith that counted Arbraham as righteous, was believe in, and being obedient.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I agree. Part of the issue may be understanding whose or Whose righteousness saves us.

When we look at it from that perspective we find we are Justified, set apart and sanctified and glorified by the righteousness of Christ in us.

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21–22).

What exactly do you agree to?
That you understand justification and sanctification?
If so, tell me why two different words are used.

Thanks.

 

[discipler7]

Well, I am not discounting that one needs to first half faith or belief in Jesus Christ to be saved (and that one must continue to believe in Jesus).

Half faith.?

Saved by half faith in Christ and half faith in works.? Or half faith in someone other than Christ.?*sarcasm*

 

[amariselle]

The first thing Abraham did was act in obedience to what he believed. That is works.

Gen 17
"23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him."

Do you think he would have been counted as righteous if he hadn't done that?

Yes. He was counted righteous in Genesis 15, for believing. However, consider this:

Exodus 4:
24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. [Moses]
25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

It seems Moses had failed to have his son circumcised and that perhaps he himself was uncircumcised. God does chastise His children and some have even died physically for disobeying Him, as Moses almost did.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I agree, thought there are some that are very clear on some of the outrageous beliefs they have, others, are in an area like you mention, while others don't quite know what to think because they have so much conflicting info coming a them, and that too is a problem.

I was too tired last night. Sorry for my curt reply.
What would be nice is for persons to KNOW Jesus.
When I met up with Jesus at about the age of 27/28, I felt like I knew Him. I started reading the bible and got a little worried when I read about the woman to whom Jesus didn't even want to give some crumbs to. But I KNEW I was misunderstanding something because I knew He was a God of love. It took a lot of studying to find out about Jews and Israel and the original sheep, etc.

But I learned this from two churches --- not online.
Churches depend on theologians who have studied for years to understand what was written 2,000 years ago. When we read stuff online, we should already know if we agree with it or not.

I listen to Swaggart and he sounds so right.
I listen to McCarthur and he sounds so right.
Jesus tells me whom I'm to trust...First of all HIM, and second of all those who agree with HIM and what HE said so many years ago.

Sometimes I post something Jesus said and it gets counter-posted with something Paul said.

1. Jesus hung on the cross, not Paul.

2. Paul AGREED with everything Jesus said!

So how could there be any misunderstanding?
Because some believe Paul taught only grace, when this is not true at all. He only explained very well that unrighteous works do not save and that we are saved by grace. But then he goes on to say that we are also to work at our salvation with fear and trembling.

Maybe some just love grace and hate work?

 

[discipler7]

LOVE is the standard for salvation....
and if it is Love this can only come from a long term relationsihp with Jesus Christ

But that is only half the story of salvation.

JOHN.3:14-18 = 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Those who are saved by faith in Christ/God, love Christ/God and love their neighbors/friends. They are not saved by their love for Christ and their love for their neighbors, even though they do love so.

For our salvation, always look to the Cross of Christ(= the author and finisher of our faith) and not look to our love or good works.
....... Our love and good works are like our end-of-the-year bonuses = heavenly crowns at the end-of-this-age. Some may get more bonuses, some may get less bonuses but all of the good-workers get saved by faith in Christ/God.

P S - Unbelief or faithlessness in Christ/God produces evil-workers/sinners whom God will chastise(unto repentance and re-belief) or curse/punish. Hence, apostasy or departing from the faith, lost faith or renounced faith = lose salvation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Paul taught that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law- he didn't say that we are justified by faith alone (he doesn't use the word "alone", but "apart)- he said that justification can happen apart from works. Still, James in his epistle says that we are justified by works, not by faith alone. Yet, like Paul, he doesn't suggest that we are justified only one way. He makes it clear that both cause justification. Works are a sign of a true faith and cannot justify on their own- but neither does a dead faith (one without works) justify. Only when the two come together is one justified.

James caused a bit of a problem in James 2:24
The reason is that he and Paul forgot to sit down and figure out some theology and how future generations would understand what they were saying.

Paul, as a matter of fact and if anyone cares to check this out, also interchangeably used the terms justification and sanctification.

Happily for Christianity, theologians worked out the two terms.

Justification is done by God alone...we are declared justified, made righteous, by God.

Sanctification (or progressive justification in the CCC) is a cooperation between man and God.

Sanctification is the proof of justification. Justification, if not followed by sanctification is worthless. –

Here is a great explanation for those who wish to read it:

Source: christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/39428/how-are-justification-and-sanctification-related-to-salvation

 

[zoidar]

Yes. He was counted righteous in Genesis 15, for believing. However, consider this:

Exodus 4:
24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. [Moses]
25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

It seems Moses had failed to have his son circumcised and that perhaps he himself was uncircumcised. God does chastise His children and some have even died physically for disobeying Him, as Moses almost did.

I don't understand, what is your point? That Abraham had been considered righteous even if he hadn't circumcised his household?

 

[amariselle]

I don't understand, what is your point? That Abraham had been considered righteous even if he hadn't circumcised his household?

Yes, but that he quite likely would have been killed if he had not obeyed God, just as Moses almost was.

 

[112358]

Bump. Interested to hear from those who might not agree with this position, and specifically why?

These things are all inextricably linked. You can’t separate any one of them from the others. None of them stand alone.

Saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven through works). Faith is a law through which grace is administered. So is righteousness. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. All of God’s commands are righteousness. None claiming to have earned grace, only claiming that these are the laws God established where grace resides, where it is to be found.

So no righteousness, no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation. None can be severed from the others.

I think people get too tripped up trying to discuss these ideas in isolation. They were never meant to be isolated in the Christian experience.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, but that he quite likely would have been killed if he had not obeyed God, just as Moses almost was.

So you believe one could be KILLED for not obeying God,
yet you refuse to answer the simple question I've asked you repeatedly??!!

AFTER salvation, are we required to obey God?
So, you're answer is a resounding YES?

 

[zoidar]

Yes, but that he quite likely would have been killed if he had not obeyed God, just as Moses almost was.

It's impossible to say how God would have dealt with Abraham. Maybe he would have given the promise to someone else, or maybe given Abraham another chance of being obedient.

What happened to Ananias and Sapphira? Were they saved after disobedience?

I haven't read the story of why Moses son wasn't circumcised.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Bump. Interested to hear from those who might not agree with this position, and specifically why?

Here's what you wrote...

These things are all inextricably linked. You can’t separate any one of them from the others. None of them stand alone.

Saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven through works). Faith is a law through which grace is administered. So is righteousness. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. All of God’s commands are righteousness. None claiming to have earned grace, only claiming that these are the laws God established where grace resides, where it is to be found.

So no righteousness, no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation. None can be severed from the others.

I think people get too tripped up trying to discuss these ideas in isolation. They were never meant to be isolated in the Christian experience.

Could I change your third paragraph around a bit?
No grace...not faith
No faith...no righteousness
No righteousness...no salvation

As to the rest, yes, you're right.
I read this before in an article I posted just above...

Sanctification is the proof of justification. Justification, if not followed by sanctification is worthless. –

 

[112358]

Here's what you wrote...

These things are all inextricably linked. You can’t separate any one of them from the others. None of them stand alone.

Saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven through works). Faith is a law through which grace is administered. So is righteousness. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. All of God’s commands are righteousness. None claiming to have earned grace, only claiming that these are the laws God established where grace resides, where it is to be found.

So no righteousness, no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation. None can be severed from the others.

I think people get too tripped up trying to discuss these ideas in isolation. They were never meant to be isolated in the Christian experience.

Could I change your third paragraph around a bit?
No grace...not faith
No faith...no righteousness
No righteousness...no salvation

As to the rest, yes, you're right.
I read this before in an article I posted just above...

Sanctification is the proof of justification. Justification, if not followed by sanctification is worthless. –

Yes, this works. The point is that that none of them can exist without the others. Not unlike vital organs. Remove a vital organ, the rest of the body dies.

Remove grace, faith, righteousness, salvation...from the spiritual body, spiritual body dies.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's impossible to say how God would have dealt with Abraham. Maybe he would have given the promise to someone else, or maybe given Abraham another chance of being obedient.

What happened to Ananias and Sapphira? Were they saved after disobedience?

I haven't read the story of why Moses son wasn't circumcised.

You might want to read this. I don't concern myself too much with scripture that's obsure...but I guess it's good to know about it.

Throwing your son's freshly circumcised foreskin at your husband's penis to win an argument with God (Exodus 4:24-26)