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112358

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These things are all inextricably linked. You can’t separate any one of them from the others. None of them stand alone.

Saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven through works). Faith is a law through which grace is administered. So is righteousness. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. All of God’s commands are righteousness. None claiming to have earned grace, only claiming that these are the laws God established where grace resides, where it is to be found.

So no righteousness, no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation. None can be severed from the others.

I think people get too tripped up trying to discuss these ideas in isolation. They were never meant to be isolated in the Christian experience.
 
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amariselle

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Not true. James 2 says,

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).

So what man had seen Abraham perform his works of being justified when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

Ever single person who has ever heard or read the account of Abraham offering his son, Issac, is aware of what he did and therefore knows he did indeed have true faith.

Also, remember that Abraham was declared righteous by faith in the sight of God 25 years before Issac was even born. Those who love to quote James to support works based salvation always seem to prefer conveniently skipping this verse:

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. - James 2:23

If you were to read the event in Genesis, Abraham and his son were the only two humans during the time Abraham was offering up his only son.

When Romans 4:2 is talking from a different perspective. Paul is trying to refute Works Alone Salvationism or by going back to the Old Law (like trying to be circumcised to be saved: See Romans 3:1, and Galatians 5:2). So when Paul says, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God", Paul is referencing how we have sinned as a part of our old life and we cannot boast before God because we need to erase our past sin record by Jesus Christ. Paul's whole argument is that both the Jew and the Gentile can come to Jesus Christ by faith (See Romans 3:22, and Romans 3:27-30). Paul is saying how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace and not works. For we did not do a work to get saved. We threw ourselves down before the mercy of Jesus Christ to be saved (Believing in His death and resurrection). We are also ultimately saved by Jesus Christ, as well. For if a believer sins again, they do not go out and do a good work to erase their sin, but they go to Jesus and confess their sin to Him in order to be forgiven. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But the Lord's work done through the believer is also required as a part of the salvation process (i.e. Sanctification or holy living). For it shows that Jesus (Who is eternal life - 1 John 5:12) is abiding in a believer or not (Compare 2 Corinthians 13:5 with 1 John 2:3-4).

Here are the verses from Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works...

Those verses speak for themselves, no one is justified to God by works.
 
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ladodgers6

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Works are just another way of showing that you have faith.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Can a dead faith save?

Surely not.

We are not saying dead faith saves. Its Christ alone who saves. Your works after your conversion is because you are made alive in Christ! So these people James is speaking with are believers! He is teaching & warning them against Antinomianism.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Justification by faith alone is what you mean then that’s the truth
That's what I mean.
Paul taught that works of the law do not save.
We are justified by God's grace, through faith.
Faith is the instrument by which we are saved ,,, faith in Jesus.

Even in the OT people were saved by faith.
 
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TuxAme

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Where is the Scripture that says justification is a process?
Sanctification is a process, we become more like Jesus everyday in heart and soul, but our spirit is perfect. Just like Jesus. 1 Jon 4:17, 1 Corinthians 6:17
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Romans 3:21-31 (note that Paul said, we are justified by faith apart from works of law, not, we are justified by faith alone apart from works of law)
__________

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. James 2:14-26 (note that here, James does say faith alone- only to condemn the notion. But also note that he doesn't say we are justified by works alone, either, because we are justified by both)
__________________________________________________________________

How can we not be justified by both if we aren't justified when laking one? Is this is why some tried to cast the epistle of James as an epistle of straw? Something to be burned up and forgotten?

Consider Abraham. Abraham had faith, and his faith was shown to be living by his works- his obedience to God. Some try to convince us that works are nothing more than a sign of a living faith. That's only partially true; they are nothing on their own- but they can't be cast as merely a sign of true faith. That's to consider a heartbeat as only a sign of life. (Let's consider works to be a heart, and faith to be the blood, since it nourishes the heart and allows it to continually pump. The heart has nothing to pump without blood, but the blood can't reach its destination without the heartbeat to propel it. Both are useless without the other, but you would have us believe that the heartbeat is only a test for the existence of blood?)

Sola-ists also ignore the other side. Since works without faith mean nothing, so also faith without works is dead. You confess it with your lips and don't understand. You consider that works are only a proof of faith because your faith must pre-exist for your works to avail anything. That's only partially true- just as faith without works is dead, so works without faith do nothing for you. But just because one can't benefit you without the other, or one needs to come before the other, doesn't mean that B is only a proof for A. Again, both faith and works avail you nothing without the existence of the other. I say it again- both faith and works are useless for you unless they're working together.
 
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ladodgers6

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Yet, the Bible says,

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

In Reformed theology we believe this. But what you are missing is that James is teaching these believers about antinomianism. Now if you disagree with what I wrote here. Then you have some big problems to deal with.

What problems? Contradiction in Scripture. Check this out, Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Please if you would, address the read highlighted areas.

And Romans 4:1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Please address the red highlighted areas.
 
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ladodgers6

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Not true. James 2 says,

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).

So what man had seen Abraham perform his works of being justified when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

If you were to read the event in Genesis, Abraham and his son were the only two humans during the time Abraham was offering up his only son.

When Romans 4:2 is talking from a different perspective. Paul is trying to refute Works Alone Salvationism or by going back to the Old Law (like trying to be circumcised to be saved: See Romans 3:1, and Galatians 5:2). So when Paul says, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God", Paul is referencing how we have sinned as a part of our old life and we cannot boast before God because we need to erase our past sin record by Jesus Christ. Paul's whole argument is that both the Jew and the Gentile can come to Jesus Christ by faith (See Romans 3:22, and Romans 3:27-30). Paul is saying how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace and not works. For we did not do a work to get saved. We threw ourselves down before the mercy of Jesus Christ to be saved (Believing in His death and resurrection). We are also ultimately saved by Jesus Christ, as well. For if a believer sins again, they do not go out and do a good work to erase their sin, but they go to Jesus and confess their sin to Him in order to be forgiven. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But the Lord's work done through the believer is also required as a part of the salvation process (i.e. Sanctification or holy living). For it shows that Jesus (Who is eternal life - 1 John 5:12) is abiding in a believer or not (Compare 2 Corinthians 13:5 with 1 John 2:3-4).

No sir, I beg to differ. That's not how you attempt to explain away, this tough dilemma you have here. We are speaking about Justification by Faith Alone! Are you implying that the OT and the NT believers had different modes of Justification by Faith?
 
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TuxAme

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That's what I mean.
Paul taught that works of the law do not save.
We are justified by God's grace, through faith.
Faith is the instrument by which we are saved ,,, faith in Jesus.

Even in the OT people were saved by faith.
Paul taught that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law- he didn't say that we are justified by faith alone (he doesn't use the word "alone", but "apart)- he said that justification can happen apart from works. Still, James in his epistle says that we are justified by works, not by faith alone. Yet, like Paul, he doesn't suggest that we are justified only one way. He makes it clear that both cause justification. Works are a sign of a true faith and cannot justify on their own- but neither does a dead faith (one without works) justify. Only when the two come together is one justified.
 
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Ever single person who has ever heard or read the account of Abraham offering his son, Issac, is aware of what he did and therefore knows he did indeed have true faith.

Also, remember that Abraham was declared righteous by faith in the sight of God 25 years before Issac was even born. Those who love to quote James to support works based salvation always seem to prefer conveniently skipping this verse:

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. - James 2:23

Well, I am not discounting that one needs to first half faith or belief in Jesus Christ to be saved (and that one must continue to believe in Jesus). This does not undo how we must also go through the Sanctification process so as to be saved, too. Paul was arguing against those who thought they needed to be circumcised in order to initially or ultimately saved by God (See Romans 3:1 and Galatians 5:2).

As for your claim that people who read the NT Scriptures about Abraham and his works as being a qualifier for being justified by works before men and not God:

Well, that sounds like a stretch of the imagination for me to believe that such is the case. Nowhere does the verse hint that we are justified by men with our works and not God in regards to men reading Scripture. One needs to have faith or belief in the Scriptures in order to truly accept that Abraham did works or not. The man who reads the Bible is not seeing Abraham actually doing these works. They have to take that by faith or belief and it is not by sight that Abraham did works. So your explanation doesn't fit. It is a forced explanation that just doesn't jive with what the rest of Scriptures says.

As for James 2:23:
If you were to keep reading it says,

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

It says very clearly here how we are justified by works and not by faith only (i.e. by faith alone). This is not before men because James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James 1:21 says, "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." James here is saying we have to put away naughtiness and or filthiness out of our lives and receive the Word (Which is able to save our souls). So James is saying we have to put away sin as a part of receiving God's Word (Which is able to save our souls). This sounds like a salvation issue to me. James also says in James 1:12. "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." But in OSAS, you receive the crown of life regardless, right? But James says blessed is the man who endures temptation that when he is tried, he receives the crown of life. The crown of life is talking about salvation or eternal life.

You said:
Here are the verses from Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works...

Those verses speak for themselves, no one is justified to God by works.

James says in James 2:24 that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
So is Paul contradicting James? No. Paul is saying we are not justified by Works Alone (which would be at the expense of God's grace). In other words, Paul is saying we cannot put the cart before the horse.
 
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No sir, I beg to differ. That's not how you attempt to explain away, this tough dilemma you have here. We are speaking about Justification by Faith Alone! Are you implying that the OT and the NT believers had different modes of Justification by Faith?

Not at all. Both the OT saint and the NT saint were justified by both faith + works.
For James says works is how he shows a person his faith (James 2:18).
James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
Hebrews says that without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Side Note:

Are you going to try and explain some of the verses I put forth to you in my previous post to you?
 
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TuxAme

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Thanks for bringing this point to light. In RCC teaching the believer will be judge by their own works to attain a FINAL Justification. No where is this taught in Scripture!!!
Hmm, which teaching would that be? Do you have any CCC references or Council decisions to back that up?
 
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ladodgers6

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But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Romans 3:21-31 (note that Paul said, we are justified by faith apart from works of law, not, we are justified by faith alone apart from works of law)
__________

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. James 2:14-26 (note that here, James does say faith alone- only to condemn the notion. But also note that he doesn't say we are justified by works alone, either, because we are justified by both)
__________________________________________________________________

How can we not be justified by both if we aren't justified when laking one? Is this is why some tried to cast the epistle of James as an epistle of straw? Something to be burned up and forgotten?

Consider Abraham. Abraham had faith, and his faith was shown to be living by his works- his obedience to God. Some try to convince us that works are nothing more than a sign of a living faith. That's only partially true; they are nothing on their own- but they can't be cast as merely a sign of true faith. That's to consider a heartbeat as only a sign of life. (Let's consider works to be a heart, and faith to be the blood, since it nourishes the heart and allows it to continually pump. The heart has nothing to pump without blood, but the blood can't reach its destination without the heartbeat to propel it. Both are useless without the other, but you would have us believe that the heartbeat is only a test for the existence of blood?)

Sola-ists also ignore the other side. Since works without faith mean nothing, so also faith without works is dead. You confess it with your lips and don't understand. You consider that works are only a proof of faith because your faith must pre-exist for your works to avail anything. That's only partially true- just as faith without works is dead, so works without faith do nothing for you. But just because one can't benefit you without the other, or one needs to come before the other, doesn't mean that B is only a proof for A. Again, both faith and works avail you nothing without the existence of the other. I say it again- both faith and works are useless for you unless they're working together.

You are missing that to be Justified before a Holy God. You have to be Perfectly Righteous and without blemish!!! And since we are already convicted law breakers and under the curse of the Law. It is impossible for us to be justified through our works before or even after conversion.

Read this:

Justified by Faith

Galatians 2:15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

I just love Galatians the clearest book in the Bible on Justification by Faith Alone, next to the Book of Romans. Please address the red highlights. Please do not try to twist it. Just read it, ponder upon it, pray about it. Then read it again, with eyes seeking the truth!!
 
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GodsGrace101

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Paul taught that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law- he didn't say that we are justified by faith alone (he doesn't use the word "alone", but "apart)- he said that justification can happen apart from works. Still, James in his epistle says that we are justified by works, not by faith alone. Yet, like Paul, he doesn't suggest that we are justified only one way. He makes it clear that both cause justification. Works are a sign of a true faith and cannot justify on their own- but neither does a dead faith (one without works) justify. Only when the two come together is one justified.
If you check Catholic doctrine, you'll find that we are justified by faith alone. It is totally a work of God and we do not participate,,,except to believe and have faith in Jesus of course.

Progressive Justification, or Sanctification is what requires our cooperation ,,, working with the Holy Spirit to make us more and more like Jesus would like us to be.
 
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We are not saying dead faith saves. Its Christ alone who saves. Your works after your conversion is because you are made alive in Christ! So these people James is speaking with are believers! He is teaching & warning them against Antinomianism.

So it is possible for them to fall into Antinomianism?

James said that they had respect of persons by giving favor to the rich brethren and not giving any honor or favor to the poor brethren (on the same equal level) is a huge problem for them.

James said, "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9).

Seems to me they have already sinned and James wanted to bring home the point even more that if they have faith without works to show for it, their faith is dead. Meaning, if they have respect of persons like they just did, their faith is dead. So they need to repent and or get their heart right with the Lord (by seeking His forgiveness).
 
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GodsGrace101

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What exactly do you all mean by "justification by faith"?

You guys hate having to do those works, don't you?:) I have to wonder who are these threads trying to convince, and conclude it could very well be yourselves.
Justified before God.
Declared righteous by God because of our faith in His Son.

I believe we should do works for God.
But which works do you mean??
 
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