Justification by Faith Defended!

[redleghunter]

Look. It is not correct to essentially say God pulls all the strings when it comes to who is saved or not saved. Jesus made salvation available to all mankind, and it up to man accept the Lord or not. Man is responsible for his salvation. If this was not the case, then there would be no judgment.

The Bible is clear. God chooses and predestinates. Man is responsible for every action they take.

Our will is either in bondage to sin and death or God's righteousness. These are basic Biblical themes and doctrines not matter how much we think our will trumps God's Sovereignty.

The issue is God has revealed Himself enough so that we may respond to His call and know His purpose for us. He has not fully revealed everything of His Nature. We humans tend to try to fill in the blanks and assign our own sovereignty. The very sin our father Adam and mother Eve fell into.

 

[redleghunter]

There is nothing about how God has caused us to be born again here. Other translations are corrupted. Trust the KJV.

He fathered us. That's what the KJV is saying in modern English. Just as we don't exist unless we have a farther who impregnates our mother. They sure did physically cause us to be.

 

[discipler7]

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus did not lie and nor was He trying to tell people to do something they couldn’t do. This is evident in the fact that disciples were able to forsake all (as noted at the end of Matthew 19).

1PETER.3&4 = 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, ...

4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
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Was the rich young Jewish ruler who kept the commandments saved from hell.? If yes, how was he saved - by the works of the Law or by faith in Jesus Christ or by works+faith or by faith+works.?
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Before Christ(= before the Cross at 33 AD), Jews who obeyed God or Moses Law and then died, were later given the opportunity to hear the gospel from the resurrected Christ in Hades.(1PETER.3:19 & 4:6, LUKE.16:19-31, MATTHEW.17:3 & 27:52) That was how the law-abiding Jews were saved from hell, ie not just by keeping the commandments/laws.

The resurrected Jesus went to Hades to preach the gospel to law-abiding Jews who had died, eg Abraham, beggar Lazarus, Moses, Elijah, etc. This was how the Jews were saved from hell.
....... The rich Jewish man died young and ended up unsaved in Hades because be broke/disobeyed Moses Law at DEUT.15:11 by not doing charity work every Sabbath Year = he was not given the opportunity to hear the gospel from Jesus Christ after he died.
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After Christ(= after the Cross at 33 AD), dead Jews no longer had the opportunity to hear the gospel from Jesus. They must hear the gospel while still alive on earth and decide whether to believe or not in Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Saviour. This was later also applied to Gentiles.
....... The keeping of Moses Law was no longer enough to save the Jews from hell. They must believe in Jesus Christ, in order to be saved from hell. Jews who kept Moses Law would still be unsaved if they did not believe in Him or have rejected Jesus Christ = it was not the works of the Law which saved them - it was faith in Jesus Christ which saved them. At LUKE.23:43, even a repentant Jewish robber who was crucified next to Jesus was saved from hell by believing in Him, and not by doing any works of the Law.

(After Christ). Gentiles did not keep Moses Law. They too must believe in Jesus Christ, in order to be saved from hell, ie not by believing and then keeping Moses Law or any Law = it was faith in Jesus Christ which saved them, not the works of the Law or any other Law.

After salvation by faith, God required the Jewish Christians to continue to keep Moses Law, as many laws/commandments as possible, because it was not a burden to them.
....... After salvation by faith, God required the Gentile Christians to begin their born-again lives in the Spirit by keeping just 4 simple laws of Moses(ACTS.15:24-29, 1COR.3:1-3), so as not to burden them and cause them to lose faith or abandon the faith. Thereafter, they should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome laws of Moses, especially moral laws, eg the Ten Commandments(EXODUS.20).

To require faith+works of any Law to save Gentile Christians is to again add burdens or obstacles which God had earlier removed for the Gentile Christians. Liberty from the works of the Law wrt salvation was given by God, in order to save as many Gentiles as possible, especially those who were not very law-abiding.

Faith+works is another form of legalism or Phariseeism, ie justified by works and not by faith alone. Their false teachers, led by James, usually command, "You have been saved by faith in Christ but you must also keep this or that commandment/law in order to remain saved". Such a requirement for salvation, if true, would be especially hard for some Gentile Christians.

Most Gentiles led lawless lives from childhood and may be carrying a lot of sinful/evil baggage with them = in a sorry state of life. Such Gentiles can still be saved by faith in Christ, ie no need for them to be super-holy after they have been saved.
....... The Law is good but Gentile Christians should not keep/obey the Law in order to be justified for salvation. They should keep/obey the Law, non-burdenly, in order to be blessed by God with a better, loving, joyful, peaceful and longer life on earth(in general), and not be cursed by God with the opposites. For Gentile Christians, eternal life through faith in Christ trumps a better and longer life on earth through the works of the Law.
....... If such Gentiles had remained as Gentiles = unsaved and unsanctified/uncleansed, they would likely have ended up with a sad and short life on earth, on top of being sent to hell after death.

The Judaizers, a group of early Jewish Christians led by James, wanted new Gentile Christians converted by Paul to also keep Moses Law, eg be circumcised and eat only kosher foods.(GALATIANS.2:9-17)
....... Paul opposed James by saying that justification for salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, not by the works of the Law. James opposed Paul by saying that justification is by faith+works of the Law.
....... Luckily, Paul and Peter prevailed against James(ACTS.15). Otherwise, there would be not many Gentile Christians today. Did bishop James conspired against Paul at ACTS.21:15-40.?
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So, as illustrated by how the Jews, Jewish and Gentile Christians were saved from hell, the common denominator here is justified by faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any Law, not by works+faith and not by faith+works of any Law.
....... If justification is by faith+works, some Gentile Christians would not be kept-saveable, eg the fully-disabled, the mentally-disabled, Death Row convicts, prisoners-for-life, alcoholics, drug-addicts, sex-addicts, dabblers in the occult, those with ancestral sins, etc.
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P S - If the works of OT or Moses Law could not save people from hell, the works of "NT" Law/commandments and all other Laws also could not save people from hell.
....... But the works of the Law has its own rewards, ie earthly blessings from God. For this reason, believers should keep the Law, unburdenly. Breaking or disobeying God's Law results in being cursed/punished by God. This may risk losing their salvation, eg when the sinner/evil-worker/law-breaker does not repent, but curse God/Jesus and die.(1COR.5:5)

 

[discipler7]

ROMANS.5: =
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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The blood of Jesus Christ atoned for Adam's Original Sin(AOS), so that believers "should not perish but have everlasting life".(LEV.17:11, HEBREWS.9:22, JOHN.3:16)
....... AOS caused all of Adam's descendants to be born with evilness/sinfulness/satanicism in their hearts.(JOHN.8:44, MATTHEW.16:23 & 23:27, MARK.7:21, 1JOHN.3:8) Evil/sin often rises in their hearts and then they may tend to go and commit evil-works/sins. Eg hate and anger in the heart may bear fruit into murder and lust in the heart may bear fruit into adultery(MATTHEW.5:21-30).

Without Christ, those who ever have hate, anger, lust, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fears/worries, doubts, etc, in their hearts are bound for hell when they die = everyone is bound for hell. And if they had further committed murder, adultery, sexual immorality, stealing, lying/cheating, blasphemy, etc, they will be cursed/punished by God or His agents(eg police) with terror, calamities, early death, etc = a sad and short life on earth.

The blood of Jesus Christ atoned for AOS or people's inborn evilness = believers in Christ are saved from hell when they die.

God gave the Jews His Law through Moses(= Moses Law) in order to curb fallen humans' tendency to commit evil-works/sins. The works of the Law "saves" people from a horrible life on earth. The works of the Law does not save people from hell.
....... Similarly, US Law, national Law, natural Law, Sharia Law, etc "saves" people from suffering in a lawless and non-peaceful society.

Believers know how evil/sinful/satanic they are on the inside or in their hearts but they also know that the blood of Jesus has cleansed their "dirty"/evil hearts and made them righteous for eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. Their works of the Law or any other Law could never cleanse their hearts.
....... Sanctification through the works of the Law could only cleanse their feet and hands from evil-works/sins.

So, humans' fallen Adamic sin/evil nature proves that justification for salvation is solely by faith in Jesus Christ, not by faith+works of any Law and not by works of any Law.

 

[amariselle]

Part 1:

It is true that a believer cannot live holy, or go through the Sanctification process without being born again spiritually by the Spirit. But after we are born again, we also have to cooperate with the Spirit, too.

Our "cooperation' is our "reasonable service" (Romans 12:1-2) as faithful disciples, as we "rest" in God and allow Him to work through us. Sanctification is not a work of the "flesh" or our own efforts, it is a work of God through the Spirit. (As the Scriptures I shared earlier clarify).

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:" (1 Peter 1:22).

Again, sound instruction written to saved, born again believers regarding how they should live as faithful disciples.

" If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us." (1 John 4:12).

Indeed, and we love because He first loved us.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

Everyone who is truly saved has absolutely "kept" Jesus' words. He was very clear as to exactly how one must be saved, and that He alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 John 4:7).

Again, more sound doctrine, written to saved, born again and sealed believers. And it should indeed be heeded.

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Galatians 5:25).]

Sound doctrine written to saved, born again and sealed believers to instruct them in their faith and in Spiritual maturity.

"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

More sound doctrine written to saved, born again, sealed believers.

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4).

Again, sound doctrine written to saved, born again, sealed believers.

It is those who are born again spiritually and who who guard their hearts so as to live righteously according to His Word.

Yes, this is our "reasonable service" as faithful disciples who love our Saviour.

"How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word." (Psalms 119:9) (ESV).

Agreed. And Scripture points to Christ, as He Himself said.

"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:15).

The "word" is ultimately the Gospel. Those who "keep it" will indeed bring forth "fruit."

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:29).

Agreed. And this "circumcision of the heart" is not one done with human hands, but by God. We cannot take credit for it.

"Now the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:" (1 Timothy 1:5).

More sound doctrine for saved, born again, sealed believers.

"Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart." (2 Timothy 2:22).

More sound doctrine for saved, born again, sealed believers.

Yes, one first needs to have belief in the Savior before they can obey God. We cannot put the cart before the horse.

Agreed. However, we must also realize that our salvation does not depend on our being 100% obedient. If we could ever be perfectly obedient, then we have no need of a Saviour. We are saved by the obedience of One.

Besides, when you read John 6, many disciples stopped following Jesus because they could not accept his message that they must drink of his blood and eat of this flesh. Jesus said in John 4 that to his meat (flesh) was to do the will of the Father.

These disciples left because they believed Jesus was speaking literally, and therefore they believed He was advocating cannibalism, which they understood was actually reprehensible to God. Many still believe Jesus was speaking literally in these verses. In actuality, Jesus was equating eating with having faith. One simply needs to back up and read the entire chapter to understand this. As for the "will of the Father", it is to believe on the Son.

Jesus says,

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

Jesus did not say,

His lord said unto him, Good job believing, you evil, and slothful servant, you have not been faithful, but you trusted in my sacrifice, so I will make you ruler over many things, enter you into the joy of your Lord.

Indeed He did not. I don't understand where you're trying to go with this. What is being spoken of is heavenly reward, not salvation. And there are indeed passages that indicate a loss of heavenly reward. Salvation, however, is not a reward, it is a gift.

The passages by Paul about "not inheriting the Kingdom of God" is talking about a loss of salvation or not inheriting (gaining access to the Kingdom of God).

One needs to understand that the Kingdom of God is precisely what Scripture tells us it is for us, an inheritance.

The inheritance is eternal life. "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life" (Matthew 19:29).

Again, eternal life is an inheritance.

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9:15).

Exactly! The "promise of eternal inheritance."

"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14).

Again, notice, "heirs of salvation."

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'" (Matthew 25:34).

Again, "inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Revelation 21:6-8).

Exactly. Notice the first part of those verses, where it describes those who "inherit all things."
God says He "will give of the fountain of the water of life freely." And it is "he who overcomes" that "shall inherit all things."

Taking this into consideration, who is it that overcomes?

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? -1 John 5:4-5

And in regard to those who "have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone" (the "second death") consider these verses:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

True believers are not among those who will not inherit eternal life.

Having no inheritance (no eternal life) is tied with committing certain sins (See Galatians 5:19-21 again).

No, those who will not inherit eternal life are those who have not done "the will of the Father" which is to believe on the Son. Because of their unbelief (lack of faith/rejection of Jesus Christ) they will not "overcome", they will not pass from death to life, be born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. They will not be "washed, sanctified and justified "in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of God." As such, the wrath of God remains upon them.

Sin is the breaking of the Law (1 John 3:4).

Agreed, of which we are all guilty.

But gifts come with responsibilities. If we do not take care of our gifts, we can lose them.

Yes, gifts do come with responsibilities. Our responsibility, our "reasonable service" is to be faithful disciples. Salvation, however, is a gift we have done nothing to earn. Yet many will say we must do enough to keep it, this is impossible. If we could not do enough to save ourselves in the first place (and Scripture is abundantly clear that we cannot) then why do so many believe we can do enough to keep ourselves saved? This is nothing but self-righteousness and pride, trying to take credit for what Christ alone has done, perfectly and sufficiently. There is no other way to be saved but through Christ.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).

Again, please refer to the Scriptures which clarify who inherits eternal life and who does not.

 

[amariselle]

Part 2:

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." (Luke 10:25-28).

I believe I've already addressed the above verses. Ultimately Jesus points this lawyer to the Law (which the lawyer believed he had kept perfectly). Jesus makes it clear that no one has kept it perfectly and we also know that the Law is a "schoolmaster" to bring us to Christ. The Law will also "stop our mouths" and show us how guilty we all are before a righteous and Holy God.

Yet, the lawyer asked what must he do to inherit eternal life. The lawyer knew the answer and it was to love God and to love his neighbor. Jesus said he answered correctly and said that he should do this and he will live (i.e. have eternal life).

See above.

Jesus is God.

Agreed.

So what is a way we are to love God? Jesus says, "if you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

Speaking of discipleship, not how to earn salvation. We cannot possibly earn or work our own way to eternal life. Eternal life is a gift, not a reward. People really need to understand that. (Too many are attempting to take credit for what Jesus accomplished, as the only One Who can save).

Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).

What makes you think Paul is referring to saved, born again, sealed believers?

So if we are not loving Jesus (According to the Bible's way of describing love), then we are accursed (according to Scripture).

See the question above.

God is not going to command us to do something that is not possible.

So, do you believe that you have kept the Law perfectly, from birth to present, in thought, word and deed? Scripture is clear, with man salvation is not possible, but with God all things are possible.

 

[amariselle]

Well, faith always existed. So the law of faith is not a new law. Abraham had faith, and many others, as well (See Hebrews 11).

I agree. Salvation has never been by works, ever.

Paul here is trying to refute Works Alone Salvationism in Romans 3 because some were being deceived into thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be right with God. That is why Paul argued against the Old Testament Law of Moses. Paul was not arguing against keeping God's commands given to us by Jesus Christ. For Paul himself said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I've already addressed those verses in 1 Timothy 6. You can go back and re-read my post if you like, but I'm not going to re-write everything here. Also, our works do not play a part in our salvation, at all.

In Romans 3, Paul is trying to say how are initially and ultimately saved (Which is by God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ). Paul is not denying the necessity of obedience as a part of salvation after we are saved by God's grace.

The above statement is contradictory. One cannot rightly say that we are saved by grace through faith Christ's sacrifice (and not of works), but then add their own obedience (works) as a necessary requirement for salvation and say they still believe that we are saved by grace. Grace and works cannot be mixed.

For Romans 8 says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

I believe I have already addressed this. We do indeed "mortify the deeds of the body" through the Spirit. This is a work of God, not our own effort, so, again, we cannot take credit for it.

James says, "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9).

Agreed. James was chastising saved, born again and sealed believers for showing favouritism to the wealthy while neglecting the poor.

To be a transgressor of the law means you are a son of disobedience.

We've all "transgressed the Law", we've all fallen short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no not one. Precisely why we need our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Scripture says,
"the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience" (Colossians 3:6).

Saved, born again, sealed believers are not the "children of disobedience". True believers are God's "adopted children" and the wrath of God no longer abides on us.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36

So, we can see, the wrath of God abides on those who "believe not".

And concerning our "adoption" as children:

Romans 8:
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Also, James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

I've addressed this before, numerous times. Please go back and read my previous posts.

We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

Agreed. And NOT of works, salvation is a GIFT of God, lest any man should boast.

But if our faith is dead that means we have no faith to be able to access the saving grace of God.

Again, please go back and read my previous posts where I already addressed James 2.

For without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

Agreed, and not faith in ourselves, faith in God, specifically, the Gospel.

Why would a believer have a similar bad trait or characteristic of deceivers of the circumcision? It doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it make more sense that the fact that they deny God by their lack of works is proof that they deny God.

I addressed the context of those verses. They were written in regard to the deceivers themselves. Those verses did not refer to believers denying God by certain "works" or lack thereof. That is simply an attempt to make the verses say something they do not say.

Besides, verse 10 is not just about the circumcision alone. It is also talking about vain talkers and deceivers (Which could be a wolf in sheep's clothing).

And? That still does not support works based salvation or the loss of salvation due to not doing enough "works."

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:" (Titus 1:10).

Again, I already addressed this, in context.

Jesus says we can know false deceivers by their fruit (i.e. deeds) (Matthew 7:16). So this is not just a sign hung about their neck called "deceiver" or a sign called "circumcision", etc. that makes them a deceiver. It is by their fruits or deeds is how we recognized them.

Actually, Matthew 7 was in regard to false prophets specifically. So, when it comes to discerning a false prophet, it is not about their works, but their words. (Those who say "thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not spoken)

So a person can deny God by a lack of works. This makes sense because that person who says they know God and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

I wonder then who can be saved? How do any of us know that we've ever done enough works? What is the standard? What if we miss even one opportunity? Have we then also denied God?

And just who are we looking to for salvation, ourselves and our "many wonderful works"? Or Christ and His all sufficient and finished work on the cross?

Paul says they are proud and they know nothing in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 (if they speak against the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness).

I've already addressed these verses as well. Perhaps in the future you could actually respond properly to my posts, because I do take a lot of time to type them all out, thoughtfully, and in response, you just keep bringing up the same verses as before. Hardly conducive to constructive conversation.

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6) (So strike #1).

Indeed, who are the proud if not those who seek to boast in their own "wonderful works"? Again, please consider the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector? Which of them was proud and which was humble?

10 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." (Matthew 13:10-11). (So strike #2).

And?

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." (Hosea 4:6) (So strike #3).

Yes, Hosea was written of those under OT Law. So, what point are you trying to make?

 

[ladodgers6]

I agree that "Justification" (Theologically speaking) is an act of God, but we have to meet certain conditions in order for God to justify (pardon) us.

Justification:

The act, process, or state of being justified by God.

If I may intrude. Justification is not a Process, this is the pivotal point to understanding the Doctrine by Faith Alone! Justification is a legal declarative act of God, pronouncing the sinner righteous & not guilty in His courtroom! Not by anything done by the sinner, or will do! But by the live, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Jesus has purchased it with His blood and earn it through His passive/active righteousness. And through Faith Alone we receive this 'FREE GIFT' (NOT EARNED) from God who justifies the ungodly! This is the good news proclaimed in the Gospel of Christ!

Hope this helps??

Just sharing.

God Bless!

In Christ Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While I would love to continue to try and show the truth to folks here with Scripture by further discussion, I am going to take make an effort to take a leave of absence. It is not that I could not easily refute anyone's argument here. These kinds of debates are really easy for me. I also feel, the majority here do not want to see what I am trying to show them with God's Word, either. So I am endeavoring to take a break from the site for now, to work on a creative project for the Lord (Whereby more people will benefit by my work for the Lord).

May God's love shine upon you all, and may you please be well.

Sincerely,

Jason.

 

[discipler7]

It is not that I could not easily refute anyone's argument here.

.
JOHN.1: = 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. .......

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Besides needing faith-in-Christ/God-in-the-flesh in order to be justified for salvation, Christians also need faith in Jesus/God in order to keep His commandments/Law/Word because Jesus Christ is also the Word/Law/commandments and God-in-the-flesh.

OT figures like Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc were justified by faith-in-God, ie it was their faith-in-God which led them to keep/obey His commandments/Law/Word. "The just shall live by faith" = "Lives are justified by faith". After they died in faith, Jesus Christ preached the gospel to them.(1PETER.3:19 & 4:6)

So, justification is by faith-in-Christ/God alone, and not by the works of the Law/commandments or works+faith or faith+works or faith+works of NT Law or other Law.
.
.
.
The Jews have faith in God to keep Moses Law/commandments but they do not extend their faith to Jesus Christ, God-in-the-flesh = they are not saved from hell after they die even though they may gain a good and long life on earth through good works.
....... The Muslims have faith in Allah to keep Muhammad Law but their Allah and Muhammad/Sharia Law may likely be false = they are not saved.
....... The atheists have faith in science and national Law in order to live well, die and return to dust as nothingness.
....... The Buddhist have faith in a meritorious life and nirvana/enlightenment in order to live by merits/works, die, experience cycles of reincarnations based on merits/works until they eventually attain nirvana/enlightenment/non-dualism.
....... etc.

So, there is true faith and false faith. Faith is objective, ie "who do you believe/trust or have faith in.?" Only true faith-in-Jesus Christ/God justifies for salvation.

Good day.

 

[justbyfaith]

I haven't looked at every post in this thread, but I throw in my two cents here:

In Genesis 4:3 Cain brought his offering to God from the fruit of the ground; and in Genesis 4:4 Abel brought his offering from the firstlings of his flock and the fat thereof. In Genesis 4:4-5, Abel's offering was accepted, but Cain's was rejected.

Abel's offering was of the firstlings of his flock and the fat thereof, and this represents Jesus being the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world; and our putting our faith and trust in His death, burial, and resurrection as a Lamb that was slain for us. We offer this to God and our offering will be accepted.

The fruit of the ground represents our merits that we have, even in Christ. We bear the fruit of the Spirit as Christians, which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, faith, Meekness, temperance. If we offer this to God as an offering and want to be accepted by God on the basis of it, we will not be accepted; though these things are the result of having a living faith in Jesus Christ.

We must not offer to God the fruit of our salvation, but the root; which is that He died on the Cross on our behalf; as a Lamb slain for us. This alone is what Abel offered; and it was accepted before God.

 

[discipler7]

In Genesis 4:4-5, Abel's offering was accepted, but Cain's was rejected.

GENESIS.4:2-7 = Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

LEVITICUS.2:14 = 14 ‘If you offer a grain offering of your firstfruits to the Lord, you shall offer for the grain offering of your firstfruits green heads of grain roasted on the fire, grain beaten from full heads.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Just to clarify, Cain's offering was rejected by God because it was not the firstfruits of the ground, not because it was the fruit of the ground or it was not of the sheep flock.

Jesus Christ is not just the Lamb of God, He is also the Bread of Life(= eat and digest the Word or study deeply the Bible). That is why the Holy Communion says, "Drink wine and eat bread" = "Drink My blood and eat My flesh/body".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I said, I am moving on from replying to folks here. No offense, but I believe people are only taking a select few small verses out of context to see what they want to see. Nothing I say with Scripture is going to make a difference at this point (until one is open to seeing it). I said what I needed to say with Scripture. What I said with Scripture stands.

May God bless you all.

 

[justbyfaith]

GENESIS.4:2-7 = Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

LEVITICUS.2:14 = 14 ‘If you offer a grain offering of your firstfruits to the Lord, you shall offer for the grain offering of your firstfruits green heads of grain roasted on the fire, grain beaten from full heads.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Just to clarify, Cain's offering was rejected by God because it was not the firstfruits of the ground, not because it was the fruit of the ground or it was not of the sheep flock.

Jesus Christ is not just the Lamb of God, He is also the Bread of Life(= eat and digest the Word or study deeply the Bible). That is why the Holy Communion says, "Drink wine and eat bread" = "Drink My blood and eat My flesh/body".

In Genesis 4:3, it doesn't specify that none of the fruit of the ground that Cain offered to the Lord was the firstfruits.

I think that the point is that fruit represents our own personal merits, whether we obtain them through faith in Christ or not. We do not obtain favour with the Lord through our personal merits but through faith in the Paschal Lamb, fulfilled in Jesus Christ.