Justification by Faith Defended!

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, this works. The point is that that none of them can exist without the others. Not unlike vital organs. Remove a vital organ, the rest of the body dies.

Remove grace, faith, righteousness, salvation...from the spiritual body, spiritual body dies.

 

[amariselle]

So you believe one could be KILLED for not obeying God,
yet you refuse to answer the simple question I've asked you repeatedly??!!

AFTER salvation, are we required to obey God?
So, you're answer is a resounding YES?

You and I have been over this enough GG.

Read the New Testament, specifically the letters of Paul where saved, born again and sealed believers became ill or even died for living disobediently. (Yet they did not lose their salvation.) Like the man who “had is father’s wife” whom Paul commanded to “be delivered to Satan that his “flesh” would be destroyed, but his soul would be saved. Consider Also Ananias and Saphira. God chastises His children, absolutely, but He does not cast them into Hell.

 

[Danthemailman]

Or, there are some who hold to the original Christian view that justification is a process, and justification by faith is only the start of that process- not the conclusion. Becoming justified in your works necessarily can't happen until you have been justified by faith.

Do we want Scripture to be in harmony with itself, or do we want to put the different texts that make it up at odds with each other? That's precisely what denying the process of justification does.

Justification is not a process, but ongoing sanctification is. There are 3 tenses to salvation, which often get mixed up. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[GodsGrace101]

You and I have been over this enough GG.

Read the New Testament, specifically the letters of Paul where saved, born again and sealed believers became ill or even died for living disobediently. (Yet they did not lose their salvation.) Like the man who “had is father’s wife” whom Paul commanded to “be delivered to Satan that his “flesh” would be destroyed, but his soul would be saved. Consider Also Ananias and Saphira. God chastises His children, absolutely, but He does not cast them into Hell.

There are serious misunderstandings of scripture abounding in this thread... I've exegeted the above and will not do it again...but it does not mean what is posted above.

I came back to post this:
What Is the Meaning of, "Destruction of the Flesh," in 1 Corinthians 5:5?

Also, the bible states very clearly that fornicators will not enter heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The works James speaks of in James 2 are from the Law of Moses and summarized by Christ:

Matthew 22:40

Matthew 5 is a discourse on the Law.

When James speaks of taking care of the poor he is most likely alluding to Isaiah 58:10-12

Taking care of the widow and orphan Exodus 22:22-23

This is part of the moral law which is deeply embedded in Torah.

Plus, Ephesians chapter 2 is not speaking of circumcision nor specifically the Law of Moses:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The audience above were Gentiles not Jews as we find out in the following verses. Paul does not mention works here as according to the Law, but works in general.

The works =circumcised and Law of Moses does not work in a Gentile audience as we see in Ephesians. And note in this passage Paul says by Grace through faith we are saved. Not just justified.

Please quote me the exact verse in James where he says we must keep Circumcision or the Old Testament Law of Moses. James talks about the Royal Law of loving your neighbor (which is the second greatest commandment given to us by Jesus Christ) (See James 2:8).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's speaking of the change in Covenant yes. And the Law there is the ceremonial law, not the moral law you argue is required to be followed for justification.

Or relationship with the Law is found here:

Romans 8: NASB
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Verse 4 in the KJV says that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who not after the flesh (sin) but who walk after the Spirit.

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
(Romans 8:4-6).

What is the righteousness of the Law?
It is loving your neighbor (Which is the equivalent of the Moral Law - See Romans 13:8-10). For if we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (See Galatians 5:16). What are the lusts of the flesh?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Romans 8:13 says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭

 

[amariselle]

There are serious misunderstandings of scripture abounding in this thread... I've exegeted the above and will not do it again...but it does not mean what is posted above.

I came back to post this:
What Is the Meaning of, "Destruction of the Flesh," in 1 Corinthians 5:5?

Also, the bible states very clearly that fornicators will not enter heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

And it also states clearly that a brother or sister be welcomed back into fellowship, how to go about church discipline and how to come alongside brothers and sisters who are struggling to encourage and instruct them.

Scripture also clearly states in regard to fornication and other evil acts, “such were some of you.

Again, God chastises His children accordingly, but he does not foresake them, He does not lose them, and He does not cast them into Hell. We are held securely in His hand.

 

[GodsGrace101]

And it also states clearly that a brother or sister be welcomed back into fellowship, how to go about church discipline and how to come alongside brothers and sisters who are struggling to encourage and instruct them.

Scripture also clearly states in regard to fornication and other evil acts, “such were some of you.

Again, God chastises His children accordingly, but he does not foresake them, He does not lose them, and He does not cast them into Hell. We are held securely in His hand.

WERE SOME OF YOU.
Right.
And when they WERE, they were NOT headed for heaven.

Jesus said that those who DO NOT ABIDE in Him will be cut off, thrown away, and burned. That doesn't sound like heaven to me.

If Jesus said it, it must surely be true.
John 15:1-6

 

[amariselle]

WERE SOME OF YOU.
Right.
And when they WERE, they were NOT headed for heaven.

Jesus said that those who DO NOT ABIDE in Him will be cut off, thrown away, and burned. That doesn't sound like heaven to me.

If Jesus said it, it must surely be true.
John 15:1-6

A “branch” does not “abide” in the in the “Vine” by it’s own effort. We have been “grafted in” by faith. (NOT works)

And Scripture plainly tells us that all, saved, born again, sealed believers, have passed from death to life, are new creations in Christ and are justified AND sanctified by the Spirit in the Name of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. (not by our carnal, sinful flesh in which “no good thing dwells”, and which is perishing) Jesus will never lose us or forsake us, but will indeed raise us up on the last day and complete the “good work He began in us, as He is the “Author and Finisher of our faith.”

 

[zoidar]

You might want to read this. I don't concern myself too much with scripture that's obsure...but I guess it's good to know about it.

Throwing your son's freshly circumcised foreskin at your husband's penis to win an argument with God (Exodus 4:24-26)

Thanks for the link! It was informative, but I wasn't too fond of the jokes.

 

[GodsGrace101]

A “branch” does not “abide” in the in the “Vine” by it’s own effort. We have been “grafted in” by faith. (NOT works)

And Scripture plainly tells us that all, saved, born again, sealed believers, have passed from death to life, are new creations in Christ and are justified AND sanctified by the Spirit in the Name of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. (not by our carnal, sinful flesh in which “no good thing dwells”, and which is perishing) Jesus will never lose us or forsake us, but will indeed raise us up on the last day and complete the “good work He began in us, as He is the “Author and Finisher of our faith.”

He will never lose us,
But we could walk away.
We still have our free will to do so after salvation.
He will complete the work He has begun in us IF we allow Him to.

I hope you realize that OSAS did not even exist until the year 1,500 AD, about.

Do you suppose the theologians before Calvin were just plain dumb? And they just couldn't catch OSAS in scripture?
Lata...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Thanks for the link! It was informative, but I wasn't too fond of the jokes.

You should read only the part we were discussing.
This is why I hate to use the net ... but sometimes it explains things better than I ever could...

 

[amariselle]

He will never lose us,
But we could walk away.
We still have our free will to do so after salvation.
He will complete the work He has begun in us IF we allow Him to.

I hope you realize that OSAS did not even exist until the year 1,500 AD, about.

Do you suppose the theologians before Calvin were just plain dumb? And they just couldn't catch OSAS in scripture?
Lata...

I don’t listen to Calvin, actually, or any other man or woman. (I test what they say by Scripture, as we should all do) Eternal security is Biblical, it is not the invention of man.

The Gospel is simple, a little child can understand, and so it is that we must receive it, as Jesus plainly taught.

 

[zoidar]

I don’t listen to Calvin, actually, or any other man or woman. (I test what they say by Scripture, as we should all do) Eternal security is Biblical, it is not the invention of man.

The Gospel is simple, a little child can understand, and so it is that we must receive it, as Jesus plainly taught.

GodsGrace actually have a point if she is right. If it wasn't taught until 1500 AD, why should we believe it?

 

[Halbhh]

Justification by Faith — It is Out of Date?
Benjamin B. Warfield

Sometimes we are told that Justification by Faith is "out of date." That would be a pity, if it were true. What it would mean would be that the way of salvation was closed and "no thoroughfare" nailed up over the barriers. There is no justification for sinful men except by faith. The works of a sinful man will, of course, be as sinful as he is, and nothing but condemnation can be built on them. Where can he get works upon which he can found his hope of justification, except from Another? His hope of Justification, remember — that is, of being pronounced righteous by God. Can God pronounce him righteous except on the ground of works that are righteous? Where can a sinful man get works that are righteous? Surely, not from himself; for, is he not a sinner, and all his works as sinful as he is? He must go out of himself, then, to find works which he can offer to God as righteous. And where will he find such works except in Christ? Or how will he make them his own except by faith in Christ?

Justification by Faith, we see, is not to be set in contradiction to justification by Works. It is set in contradiction only to justification by our Own Works. It is justification by Christ's Works. The whole question, accordingly, is whether we can hope to be received into God's favor on the ground of what we do ourselves, or only on the ground of what Christ does for us. If we expect to be received on the ground of what we do ourselves — that is what is called Justification by Works. If on the ground of what Christ has done for us — that is what is meant by Justification by Faith. Justification by Faith means, that is to say, that we look to Christ and to him alone for salvation, and come to God pleading Christ's death and righteousness as the ground of our hope to be received into his favor. If Justification by Faith is out of date, that means, then, that salvation by Christ is out of date. There is nothing, in that case, left to us, but that each man must just do the best he can to save himself.

Justification by Faith does not mean, then, salvation by believing things instead of doing right. It means pleading the merits of Christ before the throne of grace instead of our own merits. It may be doing right to believe things, and doing right is certainly right. The trouble with pleading our own merits before God is not that merits of our own would not be acceptable to God. The trouble is that we haven't any merits of our own to plead before God. Adam, before his fall, had merits of his own, and because he had merits of his own he was, in his own person, acceptable to God. He didn't need Another to stand between him and God, whose merits he could plead. And, therefore, there was no talk of his being Justified by Faith. But we are not like Adam before the fall; we are sinners and have no merits of our own. If we are to be justified at all, it must be on the ground of the merits of Another, whose merits can be made ours by faith. And that is the reason why God sent His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life. If we do not believe in him, obviously we must perish. But if we believe in him, we shall not perish but have everlasting life. That is Justification by Faith. Justification by Faith is nothing other than obtaining everlasting life by believing in Christ. If Justification by Faith is out of date, then salvation through Christ is out of date. And as there is none other name under heaven, given among men, wherein we must be saved, if salvation through Christ is out of date, then salvation itself is out of date. Surely, in a world of sinful men, needing salvation, this would be a great pity.

Reprinted from The Christian Irishman, Dublin, May, 1911, p.71.

I wonder if there are more than 0.01% of Christians that think we are not saved by Grace and not works -- "...by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— "

(I haven't yet met anyone claiming we are saved by our works even out of thousands of discussions. They must be rare.)

Of course, works are required of us -- to love others, including in deeds.

But, one could try to find these seemingly very rare individuals you may be trying to address, somewhere, and bring the gospel message to them! That would be a good thing. But have you found any?

 

[amariselle]

GodsGrace actually have a point if she is right. If it wasn't taught until 1500 AD, why should we believe it?

The position of “Eternal Security” is 100% Biblical. It was not “invented” by Calvin in the 1500s.

I haven’t shared a single writing or teaching of Calvin, nor am I a Calvinist, but I have shared Scripture after Scripture that clearly teaches one cannot and will not lose their salvation. We are in fact “sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption”. If anyone chooses to reject that, or to not believe that “until the day of redemption” really does mean “until the day of redemption”, that is entirely up to them.

 

[amariselle]

I wonder if there are more than 0.01% of Christians that think we are not saved -- "...by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— "

(I haven't yet met anyone claiming we are saved by our works even out of thousands of discussions. They must be rare.)

But, one could try to find these seemingly very rare individuals you may be trying to address, somewhere, and bring the gospel message to them! That would be a good thing. But have you found any?

I’ve actually come across quite a few who believe we are indeed saved by our works. It’s more common than one night think. Actually, I used to believe it as well.

 

[112358]

The position of “Eternal Security” is 100% Biblical. It was not “invented” by Calvin in the 1500s.

I haven’t shared a single writing or teaching of Calvin, nor am I a Calvinist, but I have shared Scripture after Scripture that clearly teaches one cannot and will not lose their salvation. We are in fact “sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption”. If anyone chooses to reject that, or to not believe that “until the day of redemption” really does mean “until the day of redemption”, that is entirely up to them.

So then, keeping the immediate context of at least a dozen, probably more (Galatians, James, Hebrews, Jude, etc.), scriptures we have beaten to death about Judaisers and those Christians who were being tempted to return to Judaism, were those Christians in the early church who left the Faith and returned to Judaism still sealed? Those who were "severed from Christ", "cut off", "fallen from grace"? Is it only Christians who have returned to Judaism that are described in this way?

Or are we back to "that's not Christians" again?

 

[redleghunter]

Wasn't it so that Abraham acted on his belief. If he hadn't acted on the belief, would the belief itself count him as righteous?

As I noted in the other thread...Faith is not comatose unless someone is truly physically comatose.

Faith is indeed action, as the very word faith highly implies faithfulness. I don't think that is what's being argued here. What's being argued is whether or not our actions of faithfulness are accounted for our justification or even salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification).

If we are justified by the works of Christ alone and we are raised from the dead (glorified) by the power of God alone, why do we think sanctification is any different on Who the actor is?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes you did, you quoted James.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?"

See Jason, in black and white, James is claiming that Abraham's one act justified him. Your quoting of James means that you agree with James, one work alone is sufficient for justification!

That is not what James wrote, James stated that Abraham was justified by that single work. I repeat, Abraham never did sacrifice his son, that work was an incomplete work!

We are not saved by Grace + works, never ever.

The real works is all about love from a pure heart.

Love is the obligation, the debt we owe, but we are never justified before God, on the basis of that love.

James is actually talking about real faith, a perfect faith.

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

Okay. Your not getting it. James says he was Justified by works. Works is plural in that passage. Yes, James is saying he is justified by that one particular act, but he references this in regards to the word “works” (Which is plural). Also, we know Abraham did other righteous things (See Hebrews 11 of his faith in action). So what you are saying is not in line with what the Bible says.