Justification and Sanctification ?

[Bible Highlighter]

I don’t belong that because that’s not what Paul says in Romans 8:2. I already explained what being set free from the LAW OF SIN & DEATH means and you even agreed with me that the LAW OF SIN & DEATH is referring to the Mosaic law. So stop saying that he said he was freed from sin in Romans 8:2 because that’s not what he said.

I already told you. Romans 8:4 says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” But you appear to either not understand it or believe it.

The righteousness of the Old Law is to be fulfilled in us by walk after the Spirit.
Walking after the Spirit is obeying those teachings in the New Testament Scriptures that are inspired by the Spirit to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, etcetera. This is keeping the Lord’s commands like loving God and others.

The righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (or the 613 Laws of Moses) is given to us in Romans 13:8-9.
Loving one another is the righteousness of the Law (Which is the moral law - like not killing others, not stealing, coveting, etcetera).
So when Paul says he is freed from the law of sin and death (While that is a reference to the Law of Moses), he is actually saying he is freed from sin that he struggled with in Romans 7:14-24. This is the moral Law that is set free from. Context tells us that we are to fulfill the righteousness of the Law and this is the Moral Law according to Romans 13:8-9. To deny this is to deny the context or Scripture.

We are not under the entire Old Law package (i.e., the 613 laws of Moses). But that does not mean we are not to fulfill the righteousness of the Old Law (Which is the Moral Law found in Romans 13:8-9). This is what you cannot accept.

Romans 7:7
”Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”

Do you believe the Law of not coveting applies under the New Testament?

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The law of the Spirit set us free from the Mosiac law.

Yes, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the Old Law.
But you have to keep reading and believe verse 4 about how we fulfill the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Law.
This is the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law we are to fulfill which is in Romans 13:8-10.

Have you managed to stop sinning?

It is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).

Also, the forum rules state:

Handling Disagreements

Members who participate in the Soteriology forum are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY when you disagree with each other.

• When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don’t actually see drinking as a sin. I see drunkardness as being a sin but not the occasional drink. My wife & I have a drink on special occasions but we never get drunk. We might go thru two or three bottles of champagne a year and we never finish a bottle in one day.

First, notice I said a drunk who joins a drug program. I did not say a person who drinks socially and has no problem drinking. Second, for some, even social drinking can be a sin. It depends on a person’s conscience. If they know it is a poison like myself, they could not drink for social reasons but only if it is a medical emergency for numbing pain, etcetera. But you are missing the point. The person who struggles with alcohol is not having an issue with social drinking but with drunkenness and addiction to alcohol. It’s like they are out of control when they take a sip. Also, my main point was that a person’s struggle with a sin on their road to recovery does not determine their overcoming such a sin in time later. That’s what you fail to understand. But of course you don’t like that truth, so you are attempting to side step this point.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok so you have successfully stopped sinning? Is that correct?

See post #381.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I already told you. Romans 8:4 says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” But you appear to either not understand it or believe it.

And Ephesians 4:30 says that any Christian who is sealed with the Holy Spirit can grieve Him. So yes obviously anyone who is walking in the Spirit is not currently sinning but occasionally we stumble in our walk and do sin. All Romans 8:4 says is that when we walk in the Spirit we fulfill the law of the Spirit. What it does not say is that Paul or anyone else other than Christ has ever actually continuously walked in the Spirit without stumbling. Neither Romans 8:2 nor 8:4 say that Paul did not sin.

It is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).

Also, the forum rules state:

Handling Disagreements

Members who participate in the Soteriology forum are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY when you disagree with each other.

• When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster.

I think you misunderstand me I wasn’t asking impolitely. I apologize if that is the impression you got. I was at work and had to reply quickly.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life?

Did you believe me when I told you that I still sin?

 

[BNR32FAN]

First, notice I said a drunk who joins a drug program. I did not say a person who drinks socially and has no problem drinking. Second, for some, even social drinking can be a sin. It depends on a person’s conscience. If they know it is a poison like myself, they could not drink for social reasons but only if it is a medical emergency for numbing pain, etcetera. But you are missing the point. The person who struggles with alcohol is not having an issue with social drinking but with drunkenness and addiction to alcohol. It’s like they are out of control when they take a sip. Also, my main point was that a person’s struggle with a sin on their road to recovery does not determine their overcoming such a sin in time later. That’s what you fail to understand. But of course you don’t like that truth, so you are attempting to side step this point.

I wasn’t side stepping anything I was just sharing my thoughts on drinking responsibly. I don’t think what me & my wife do can be considered social drinking because we only do it at home and it’s just the two of us. We don’t drink when we have friends over and we don’t go out and drink.

Brother you seem to be confusing the manner in which I’m trying to convey my posts. I did address the issue you referred to when I said that anyone who doesn’t see the point of refraining from sin is lost and not being guided by the Holy Spirit. I fail at it all the time but one thing is certain I will never stop trying, not so I can get into heaven but because I love God and I want to do what pleases Him because the Spirit inside me convicts me of my sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes but you said that Paul said he didn’t sin in Romans 8:2. That’s not what he actually said.

The Scriptures say in context (just two chapters earlier):

”For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Romans 6:7).

What does “dead” mean in Romans 6:7?

”What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2).

Galatians 5:24 says,
”And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

1 Peter 2:24
”Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12).

“You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).

“For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB).

“But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

You are dead to your sin whereby you do not live any longer in it (Which is the exact opposite of what you are suggesting).

If one believes they will sin again as you are teaching (By your saying you will look at a woman in lust again), then one is technically not freed from sin because they are still a slave to do that sin again because they think it is inevitable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wasn’t side stepping anything I was just sharing my thoughts on drinking responsibly. I don’t think what me & my wife do can be considered social drinking because we only do it at home and it’s just the two of us. We don’t drink when we have friends over and we don’t go out and drink.

Social drinking was not really my point. A drunk who joins a drug program who may stumble on occasion before he completely puts alcohol out of his life for good one day is the point. For a drunk, many of them cannot even be around others even drinking or they will be tempted to backslide into drunkenness. So they do what it takes to stay sober free the rest of their lives. But again, the point is that just because we seen them slip up two or three times on their road to recovery during a drug program does not equate with their final state of overcoming their sin of drunkenness for good over the rest of their life. That’s the ultimate point I was making. So when you seen Peter stumble into a sin, that does not mean he did not teach in overcoming sin and nor does it mean that he himself did not overcome the dark sins of this world. In fact, Peter said that there were false prophets who cannot cease from sin (See: 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14). So this lets us know that we should not be like false prophets who cannot cease from sin because it is a characteristic that is identified with them.

Brother you seem to be confusing the manner in which I’m trying to convey my posts. I did address the issue you referred to when I said that anyone who doesn’t see the point of refraining from sin is lost and not being guided by the Holy Spirit. I fail at it all the time but one thing is certain I will never stop trying, not so I can get into heaven but because I love God and I want to do what pleases Him because the Spirit inside me convicts me of my sin.

It is good that we strive to not sin, and to be convicted of sin. But you’re missing the point here.
If an axe murderer strives to not chop people into bits, does it really matter if he says he cannot help it (Even if he says he does not want to do it)? He could even be convicted by his sins, but if he does not reform he is still an axe murderer. No amount of remorse or conviction of sin to not kill people into tiny pieces will truly matter unless he one day stops for good. To say so otherwise means that Hitler could have been right with God if he only struggled not to kill the Jews, and he was convicted of his sins and yet he just still broke down and had them rounded up like cattle for the butcher shop anyways. It would not have mattered how he felt if he did not take any action to stop his horrible crimes. Thats the point I am getting at here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And Ephesians 4:30 says that any Christian who is sealed with the Holy Spirit can grieve Him.

Isaiah 63:10 (NKJV)
”But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.”

So yes obviously anyone who is walking in the Spirit is not currently sinning but occasionally we stumble in our walk and do sin.

While I do not deny that God’s people have sinned occasionally, I believe this was on their road to recovery in one day overcoming sin. Granted, not all of them may have achieved this. I do believe Samson was an example of God’s grace, but he is not a shining example of sainthood or righteous living. Also, the New Covenant changed things, as well. It’s an easier covenant to follow than the Old Covenant. There are many warnings to the Christian today. Again, Jesus said that just looking upon a woman in lust can cause them to be in danger of being thrown bodily into hellfire. I don’t think he meant that we can do this on occasion and be okay. This applies to me, you, and every other Christian. We as believers can perish if we don’t live holy. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. I say this because many Christian’s standard of holy living is not the same as the Bible describes it. I mean, really. If things were as you say, then I really wouldn’t worry about sin all that much. Just confess and repeat and have one foot in God’s Kingdom and one foot in the enemy camp. But we cannot serve two masters.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@BNR32FAN

Hitler’s view of sin and salvation in this video appears to be the view held by many Christians I have talked with over the many years.

Some may be more Hyper Grace than others, but others appear to believe that if they just do certain sins occasionally, it is okay with God. But the Bible does not teach such a thing. Yes, I believe Christians can stumble on their road to recovery, but to say they will always stumble and never overcome is not what God’s Word teaches.

 

[Mark Quayle]

To all:

As for the mention of 1 Timothy 1:15:

When Paul said he is the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15, he was referring to his old life before he became a Christian.

Context:

”And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did itignorantly in unbelief.” (1 Timothy 1:12-13).

So as we can see in this above passage in context, Paul was BEFORE a blasphemer. BEFORE is referring to his old life before he became a Christian. Paul is not the chief of sinners in regards to describing his life as a Christian. A person who is out to defend their sin on some level with the thinking they are still magically saved will only twist the context and meaning of what Paul said here. In fact, this reminds me of the time I have talked with Christians who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they still would be saved while doing so because they have a belief alone in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Clearly this is not what Paul was talking about. Jude 1:4 warns us about those believers who turn God’s grace into lasciviousness (i.e., a license to sin or immorality).

As for the mention of 1 John 1:8:

1 John 1:8 is one of the most misused verses to justify some level of sin today.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level.

“If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).​

Note: The words in brackets in blue is my commentary to the text above.

Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

You are, from what I can tell, correct about 1 Timothy 1:12-13, though I question some of your supporting use of other passages. You've also done a good job of representing some realities, such as that NO amount of sin is defensible, but mostly you have represented your mindset concerning the matter of sin and salvation. You have not quite represented the truth (and no, I'm not saying I'm quite right, either).

I'm going to translate a few of your terms to what I think you are referring to, and remark on them:

1. You mention OSAS and those who believe in eternal security. There is a huge difference in camps, within that category. Condemningly, you mention those who claim to be secure because they have believed. One camp depends, according to that wording, on the validity of their decision for their security. The other camp depends on the will (decree) of God, and on the solid work of the Spirit of God in regeneration.

I used to believe OSAS theoretically, but the truth was always before me, that my decision ("accepting Christ into my heart") was invalidated constantly, as you said, by 1 John 2:3-4, and by several other similar passages (eg. John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."). Since coming to the beliefs I hold today, the focus has changed considerably. My security, (independent of whether I am or am not fooling myself), is only according to the will of God, and for those to whom God chose to show the particular mercy of salvation, (whether I am one of them or not), IF they are of those, OSAS applies. But all that means is that GOD will indeed accomplish all that he set out to do.

My feelings of security, however, come in two aspects, the first being in pretty much universal doctrinal agreement for all Christians: A. The Spirit (of God) witnesses to my spirit, that I am a child of God. And, B. No longer is this life thought to be about this life. My joy and satisfaction is from the knowledge that God has a reason for all things, and is accomplishing for himself precisely what HE set out to do from the beginning —and he is immensely pleased with that. Where I sit in respect to that plan, from my POV, is the part of an Admirer of God. Thus my participation, not my performance, is a given, (whether by obedience or by my disobedience), but God's will be done! It is the best security, that I am at God's mercy, and not at the mercy of my silly doubts and emotional commitments.

You mention statements of absurd proportions (those who claim to be able to open fire on a crowd and still be saved). These are often made by people as a demonstration of what the Electing Grace of God can do. They do not usually imply that the person stating them actually believes that the Grace of God is license to sin.

2. More than once I have heard that, while you didn't mention Reformed Theology and Calvinism specifically, they are akin to Gnosticism. To me that is absurd. There is no such thing as sin that is not sin, and any wrongdoing is sin, not to mention specifically that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Any disobedience of Christ is sin. Any self-exaltation against God is sin. It is an abomination to think that one should sin that grace may abound. Yet, we do and it does. But no Reformed or Calvinist that I know of, excuses sin.

I will deal with your look at 1 John 1 in a separate post.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are, from what I can tell, correct about 1 Timothy 1:12-13, though I question some of your supporting use of other passages. You've also done a good job of representing some realities, such as that NO amount of sin is defensible, but mostly you have represented your mindset concerning the matter of sin and salvation. You have not quite represented the truth (and no, I'm not saying I'm quite right, either).

I'm going to translate a few of your terms to what I think you are referring to, and remark on them:

1. You mention OSAS and those who believe in eternal security. There is a huge difference in camps, within that category. Condemningly, you mention those who claim to be secure because they have believed. One camp depends, according to that wording, on the validity of their decision for their security. The other camp depends on the will (decree) of God, and on the solid work of the Spirit of God in regeneration.

I used to believe OSAS theoretically, but the truth was always before me, that my decision ("accepting Christ into my heart") was invalidated constantly, as you said, by 1 John 2:3-4, and by several other similar passages (eg. John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."). Since coming to the beliefs I hold today, the focus has changed considerably. My security, (independent of whether I am or am not fooling myself), is only according to the will of God, and for those to whom God chose to show the particular mercy of salvation, (whether I am one of them or not), IF they are of those, OSAS applies. But all that means is that GOD will indeed accomplish all that he set out to do.

My feelings of security, however, come in two aspects, the first being in pretty much universal doctrinal agreement for all Christians: A. The Spirit (of God) witnesses to my spirit, that I am a child of God. And, B. No longer is this life thought to be about this life. My joy and satisfaction is from the knowledge that God has a reason for all things, and is accomplishing for himself precisely what HE set out to do from the beginning —and he is immensely pleased with that. Where I sit in respect to that plan, from my POV, is the part of an Admirer of God. Thus my participation, not my performance, is a given, (whether by obedience or by my disobedience), but God's will be done! It is the best security, that I am at God's mercy, and not at the mercy of my silly doubts and emotional commitments.

You mention statements of absurd proportions (those who claim to be able to open fire on a crowd and still be saved). These are often made by people as a demonstration of what the Electing Grace of God can do. They do not usually imply that the person stating them actually believes that the Grace of God is license to sin.

2. More than once I have heard that, while you didn't mention Reformed Theology and Calvinism specifically, they are akin to Gnosticism. To me that is absurd. There is no such thing as sin that is not sin, and any wrongdoing is sin, not to mention specifically that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Any disobedience of Christ is sin. Any self-exaltation against God is sin. It is an abomination to think that one should sin that grace may abound. Yet, we do and it does. But no Reformed or Calvinist that I know of, excuses sin.

I will deal with your look at 1 John 1 in a separate post.

Many Christians appear to be for holy living, but it is a facade. I have been talking on various different Christian forums over the past 10 years, and it’s the same ole story.

Take for example, John MacArthur (A known Calvinist). He also pretends to teach holy living as a requirement for salvation, but he really does not believe that way according to the Bible. The Lordship Salvation doctrine he popularized is a Trojan horse.

How so?

Well, Kenneth Nally committed suicide as per his influence of John MacArthur's ministry and MacArthur said that he was still saved.

Here is a quote from an article:

"At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”​

Article Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3​

John MacArthur says,

".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ...​

(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"​

John MacArthur confirms how one can sin and still be saved here in this video:

Even a Christian who I know well who is against Hyper Grace admitted to a friend of mine that if a Christian (who generally lived a holy life) looked upon a woman in lust and then a bus hit him immediately and he died, that he would be saved (without even confessing of such a sin).

But Jesus condemned this sin clearly in Matthew 5:28-30. It does not sound like this sin is okay to do unless a person confesses and forsakes this sin (See: Proverbs 28:13). So I see it as Christians holding to varying degrees of justifying sin. Some justify many sins (like the Hyper Grace crowd) and others justify sin on a smaller level.

But basically many Christians I have talked with over the years hold to the belief held by Hitler in this video (that is approx. 4 minutes):

In other words, at least on some level they they think sin will not cause them to die.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are, from what I can tell, correct about 1 Timothy 1:12-13, though I question some of your supporting use of other passages. You've also done a good job of representing some realities, such as that NO amount of sin is defensible, but mostly you have represented your mindset concerning the matter of sin and salvation. You have not quite represented the truth (and no, I'm not saying I'm quite right, either).

I'm going to translate a few of your terms to what I think you are referring to, and remark on them:

1. You mention OSAS and those who believe in eternal security. There is a huge difference in camps, within that category. Condemningly, you mention those who claim to be secure because they have believed. One camp depends, according to that wording, on the validity of their decision for their security. The other camp depends on the will (decree) of God, and on the solid work of the Spirit of God in regeneration.

I used to believe OSAS theoretically, but the truth was always before me, that my decision ("accepting Christ into my heart") was invalidated constantly, as you said, by 1 John 2:3-4, and by several other similar passages (eg. John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."). Since coming to the beliefs I hold today, the focus has changed considerably. My security, (independent of whether I am or am not fooling myself), is only according to the will of God, and for those to whom God chose to show the particular mercy of salvation, (whether I am one of them or not), IF they are of those, OSAS applies. But all that means is that GOD will indeed accomplish all that he set out to do.

My feelings of security, however, come in two aspects, the first being in pretty much universal doctrinal agreement for all Christians: A. The Spirit (of God) witnesses to my spirit, that I am a child of God. And, B. No longer is this life thought to be about this life. My joy and satisfaction is from the knowledge that God has a reason for all things, and is accomplishing for himself precisely what HE set out to do from the beginning —and he is immensely pleased with that. Where I sit in respect to that plan, from my POV, is the part of an Admirer of God. Thus my participation, not my performance, is a given, (whether by obedience or by my disobedience), but God's will be done! It is the best security, that I am at God's mercy, and not at the mercy of my silly doubts and emotional commitments.

You mention statements of absurd proportions (those who claim to be able to open fire on a crowd and still be saved). These are often made by people as a demonstration of what the Electing Grace of God can do. They do not usually imply that the person stating them actually believes that the Grace of God is license to sin.

2. More than once I have heard that, while you didn't mention Reformed Theology and Calvinism specifically, they are akin to Gnosticism. To me that is absurd. There is no such thing as sin that is not sin, and any wrongdoing is sin, not to mention specifically that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Any disobedience of Christ is sin. Any self-exaltation against God is sin. It is an abomination to think that one should sin that grace may abound. Yet, we do and it does. But no Reformed or Calvinist that I know of, excuses sin.

I will deal with your look at 1 John 1 in a separate post.

Here is John Piper (A Calvinist) teaching he can sin and still be saved, as well.

So yeah, he has the same view as Hitler in the video I showed.

Side Note:

I do not agree with Adam (at Abide in the Word YouTube Channel) in regards to his view on denying the the 1st aspect of salvation (Which is being saved by God’s grace without works). I believe the Bible teaches two aspects of salvation.

#1. We are saved initially by God’s grace without works through faith.
#2. We are saved in the Sanctification of the Spirit (over the course of our whole life).

However, Adam does a good job at showing how many Christians today believe in a sin and still be saved type belief (Which is not what the BIble teaches).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are, from what I can tell, correct about 1 Timothy 1:12-13, though I question some of your supporting use of other passages. You've also done a good job of representing some realities, such as that NO amount of sin is defensible, but mostly you have represented your mindset concerning the matter of sin and salvation. You have not quite represented the truth (and no, I'm not saying I'm quite right, either).

I'm going to translate a few of your terms to what I think you are referring to, and remark on them:

1. You mention OSAS and those who believe in eternal security. There is a huge difference in camps, within that category. Condemningly, you mention those who claim to be secure because they have believed. One camp depends, according to that wording, on the validity of their decision for their security. The other camp depends on the will (decree) of God, and on the solid work of the Spirit of God in regeneration.

I used to believe OSAS theoretically, but the truth was always before me, that my decision ("accepting Christ into my heart") was invalidated constantly, as you said, by 1 John 2:3-4, and by several other similar passages (eg. John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."). Since coming to the beliefs I hold today, the focus has changed considerably. My security, (independent of whether I am or am not fooling myself), is only according to the will of God, and for those to whom God chose to show the particular mercy of salvation, (whether I am one of them or not), IF they are of those, OSAS applies. But all that means is that GOD will indeed accomplish all that he set out to do.

My feelings of security, however, come in two aspects, the first being in pretty much universal doctrinal agreement for all Christians: A. The Spirit (of God) witnesses to my spirit, that I am a child of God. And, B. No longer is this life thought to be about this life. My joy and satisfaction is from the knowledge that God has a reason for all things, and is accomplishing for himself precisely what HE set out to do from the beginning —and he is immensely pleased with that. Where I sit in respect to that plan, from my POV, is the part of an Admirer of God. Thus my participation, not my performance, is a given, (whether by obedience or by my disobedience), but God's will be done! It is the best security, that I am at God's mercy, and not at the mercy of my silly doubts and emotional commitments.

You mention statements of absurd proportions (those who claim to be able to open fire on a crowd and still be saved). These are often made by people as a demonstration of what the Electing Grace of God can do. They do not usually imply that the person stating them actually believes that the Grace of God is license to sin.

2. More than once I have heard that, while you didn't mention Reformed Theology and Calvinism specifically, they are akin to Gnosticism. To me that is absurd. There is no such thing as sin that is not sin, and any wrongdoing is sin, not to mention specifically that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Any disobedience of Christ is sin. Any self-exaltation against God is sin. It is an abomination to think that one should sin that grace may abound. Yet, we do and it does. But no Reformed or Calvinist that I know of, excuses sin.

I will deal with your look at 1 John 1 in a separate post.

Also, check out this video, too.

 

[setst777]

Repentance, obedience and commitment to sanctification are the result of the faith which saves.

Is faith a "genuine faith" if one has not first repented, denying the old master, and now confess Jesus as Lord of his life?

That is the meaning of "sanctification" of ourselves to God before one work is ever done - to set ourselves apart onto God by faith in Lord Jesus.

How can you say that repentance is the result of faith when earlier you stated that repentance is the origin of faith?

Clare73 said:
Repentence (turning, change of mind) is the origin of faith.

If one does not have those results, one did not have true faith which saves, one had counterfeit faith which does not save.

Exactly, and that is why a genuine faith in Lord Jesus is sanctifying (to set apart) ourselves to God, even before one work is ever done. That is the faith God accepts. You won't live out what you have not first committed to by faith.

Debt paid, guilt removed is salvation from the wrath of God, which is by faith only, justification is by faith only, both not by works, but apart from works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28), which follow salvation.

True, however, as you defined faith, a genuine faith is one in which we have already committed to following Lord Jesus. A person will not follow Lord Jesus if he did not first put his faith in him.

God justifies those who put their faith in Christ - not a "counterfeit faith" as you call it, but a genuine faith by which we renounce the old life and now commit to follow Lord Jesus. That genuine faith is sanctification before justification.

When we sanctify (set apart) ourselves to God by faith, then God sanctifies (sets apart) us onto himself, justifying us by the blood of his Son, and indwelling us by His Spirit.

The faith in Christ which saved is not sanctification, which is the life of faith after salvation.

Are you saying that faith without a commitment to sanctification saves us?

Isn't a faith without commitment to Christ a counterfeit faith according to your own definition?

Here is your definition:

"If one does not have those results, one did not have true faith which saves, one had counterfeit faith which does not save."

 

[setst777]

Repentance, obedience and commitment to sanctification are the result of the faith which saves.

You wrote earlier that repentance is the origin of faith.

Clare73 said:
Repentence (turning, change of mind) is the origin of faith.

If a genuine faith results in repentance, obedience, and commitment, then is this genuine faith a sanctifying of ourselves to God before one work is ever done?

If one does not have those results, one did not have true faith which saves, one had counterfeit faith which does not save.

Since is a faith that results in repentance, commitment, and obedience is a genuine faith doesn't that mean that this faith is a commitment to God (a setting ourselves apart onto God) sanctification before one work is ever done? Why or why not?

The faith in Christ which saved is not sanctification, which is the life of faith after salvation.

Sanctification only means "to be set apart onto God." Works done from sanctification is not sanctification itself; rather, the works done are the acts that follow sanctification.

Sanctification does not describe all the works done after we sanctify ourselves to God, only that we have set apart ourselves to God by faith.

Works of sanctification come forth from first sanctifying ourselves to God by faith before one work is ever done.

 

[setst777]

Sanctification is the obedient life of faith after salvation.

That is not what sanctification means. Sanctification is not the works done, but is being set apart for a purpose before one work is ever done.

<<
Sanctification literally means "to set apart for special use or purpose", that is, to make holy or sacred.

Sacredness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>>

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is not what sanctification means. Sanctification is not the works done, but is being set apart for a purpose before one work is ever done.

<<
Sanctification literally means "to set apart for special use or purpose", that is, to make holy or sacred.

Sacredness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>>

Sanctify:

John 17:17
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

​

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3).​

​

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...". (1 Peter 1:22).​

​

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word."​

(Psalms 119:9)​

​

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).​

​

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).​

Sanctify & Sanctified:

John 17:19
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

​

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;​

2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).​

​

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6).​

​

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." (1 Peter 2:21).​

Sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).​

​

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." (1 Thessalonians 4:7).​

​

"So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as Christ is pure." (1 John 3:3 GW).​

​

"Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." Matthew 23:26).​

​

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." (Luke 6:45).​

​

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).​

​

Sanctification & Sanctified:

1 Thessalonians 4:4
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

​

7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.​

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;​

9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;​

10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." (2 Corinthians 4:7-10).​

​

16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?​

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."​

(1 Corinthians 3:16-17).​

So I see Sanctification as a cleansing or washing. I see Sanctification being described as living holy in the Bible verses above.
I hope this study on Sanctification helps.

May God bless you.
And please be well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In addition, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is talking about how the gospel calls us to... God has chosen us to salvation THROUGH the Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living), and a belief of the truth.

“...God hath from the beginning​

chosen you to salvation through​

sanctification of the Spirit​

and belief of the truth:​

Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...”​

(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).​

Side Note: The gospel is mentioned clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
You also have to understand that the gospel calls us and it does not force us or compels us to be a certain way. A sales person who calls you does not always convince you of what they are selling just because they called.

Anyways, Just look at the context in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, and it proves that Sanctification of the Spirit is in reference to holy living. Verse 12 gives us the polar opposite of what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. It states:

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,​

but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”​

(2 Thessalonians 2:12).​

#1. Believed not the truth (vs. 12) (is polar opposite of): Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Pleasure in unrighteousness (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).

Verse 16-17 also confirms this, as well. It states:

“...and hath given us everlasting consolation​

and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts,​

and stablish you in every good word and work.”​

(1 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#1. Good hope through grace (vs. 16) = Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Every good word and work (vs. 17) = Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).

Paul teaches elsewhere how Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living) is a part of salvation, too.

Galatians 6:8-9

8 ”For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.​

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”​

Romans 8:13

”For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”​

May this edify and may you all blessed in Christ Jesus unto His holy calling.

 

[setst777]

Sanctify:

John 17:17
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

​

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3).​

​

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...". (1 Peter 1:22).​

​

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word."​

(Psalms 119:9)​

​

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).​

​

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).​

Sanctify & Sanctified:

John 17:19
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

​

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;​

2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).​

​

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6).​

​

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." (1 Peter 2:21).​

Sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).​

​

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." (1 Thessalonians 4:7).​

​

"So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as Christ is pure." (1 John 3:3 GW).​

​

"Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." Matthew 23:26).​

​

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." (Luke 6:45).​

​

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).​

​

Sanctification & Sanctified:

1 Thessalonians 4:4
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

​

7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.​

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;​

9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;​

10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." (2 Corinthians 4:7-10).​

​

16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?​

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."​

(1 Corinthians 3:16-17).​

So I see Sanctification as a cleansing or washing. I see Sanctification being described as living holy in the Bible verses above.
I hope this study on Sanctification helps.

May God bless you.
And please be well.

So true. We sanctify ourselves to God by faith, confessing "Jesus is Lord" because of the Gospel Word.

Faith comes by hearing the Word about Christ (Romans 10:17).

When the believer confesses that Jesus is Lord of his life (Romans 10:9) after hearing the Word, that is when he sanctifies (sets himself apart) as a slave of Lord Jesus before one work is ever done.

To these who possess this genuine faith, God then sanctifies (sets apart) the believer onto himself, justifying the believer by the blood of Lord Jesus, and indwelling the true believer by His Spirit.

What follows our confession of faith that "Jesus is Lord" (sanctification), is to now live out that sanctification by following Lord Jesus into a life of righteousness and love, living by God's Word and Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Isaiah 63:10 (NKJV)
”But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.”



While I do not deny that God’s people have sinned occasionally, I believe this was on their road to recovery in one day overcoming sin. Granted, not all of them may have achieved this. I do believe Samson was an example of God’s grace, but he is not a shining example of sainthood or righteous living. Also, the New Covenant changed things, as well. It’s an easier covenant to follow than the Old Covenant. There are many warnings to the Christian today. Again, Jesus said that just looking upon a woman in lust can cause them to be in danger of being thrown bodily into hellfire. I don’t think he meant that we can do this on occasion and be okay. This applies to me, you, and every other Christian. We as believers can perish if we don’t live holy. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. I say this because many Christian’s standard of holy living is not the same as the Bible describes it. I mean, really. If things were as you say, then I really wouldn’t worry about sin all that much. Just confess and repeat and have one foot in God’s Kingdom and one foot in the enemy camp. But we cannot serve two masters.

Colossians 1:22 says that Jesus will present us before The Father holy, blameless, and beyond reproach. Now I’m not saying that this means we can use this as a license to sin but our holiness comes from nowhere other than Christ’s sacrifice.