Justification and Sanctification ?

[setst777]

Its always interesting to me, that when i come to a forum......and start preaching Paul's Doctrine, people like you who never thought about it before, suddenly are the master of it.

Too funny,......again and again., but i am glad that you are thinking in the right direction, now.
This is happening a lot here now, on this forum.

So, here is the one issue you still have, ....setst777

1.) Remember, there is Salvation..........and that Is Jesus Himself.......Its the Cross of Christ........ John 14:6
2.) Then, the believer, born again, is to "present your body a living sacrifice"... which is all that STUIFF you are posting.
That's discipleship, and that is NOT Salvation.
Always remember they are NOT THE SAME.
You are to do all that, but not to try to be saved or to try to stay saved......but only because you are saved.

Chaleb, you can blame it all on me if that makes you feel better, but we are discussing what Paul actually taught, not what you wished he had taught.

Address what the Apostle Paul actually taught instead of shooting the messenger.

If you object to the Apostle Paul's teaching, then you have to determine whether you actually believe in God and His Word.

The Apostle Paul makes clear in his Epistles that we are obligated to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit to receive Life from the Spirit. The Spirit will lead us, but we have to be willing to be led, and to live and walk by the Spirit, because many Christians do quench and grieve the Spirit by their disobedience.

Romans 8:12-13 (WEB) 12 So then, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, {{{we}}} have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit {{{you}}} put to death the deeds of the body, {{{you}}} will live.

Therefore, if you object to Paul's teaching, then you have to consider that perhaps you object to Paul being an Apostle of Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who {{{belong to Christ}}} have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 {{{If we}}} live by the Spirit, {{{let us}}} also keep in step with the Spirit.

Therefore, as Paul continues to teach us, the Christian fulfills the whole law by walking in the Spirit.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And so, Paul continues to teach us that the way of the Spirit is a {{{sanctified life}}}. Those Christians who reject this life of sanctification that Paul instructs are rejecting God.

2 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that {{{you}}} abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that {{{each one of you}}} know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned {{{you}}} and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also {{{given his Holy Spirit to you}}}.

And so, Paul admonishes and warns believers to continue walking in the Spirit {{{without giving up}}} so that the indwelling Spirit will give him Eternal Life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, if {{{we}}} do not give up.

Therefore, as Paul teaches us, a Christian can no longer live in sin, but rather, they are now slaves of righteousness, and the result of this sanctified life is Eternal Life.

Romans 6:1-22 (WEB)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

6 Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over him! 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore don’t let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 Also, do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be! 16 Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered. 18 Being made free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your {{{fruit of sanctification}}} and the result of eternal life.

 

[zoidar]

I am using the words you wrote down. You wrote that we repent and believe after hearing the Gospel, and by believing we receive the Spirit who gives us the Faith to be saved.

Below are quotes from you that you try to show there are two different faiths - one faith by which we receive the Spirit, and another faith we receive by the Spirit so we can be saved

<<<<
zoidar said:
What would you do with my story then? I came to believe that Jesus did die for us and that he was resurrected from the dead. As I got home from work I asked God for forgiveness and I received the Holy Spirit. I then believed in Jesus for my salvation. What would then be the difference of the belief I had prior to salvation and the belief after? How can you describe that without using different words? Both are "believes" yet different, one salvific, one not.

zoidar said:
Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.
However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

zoidar said:
That's kind of what I'm saying there are two kinds of faith/belief. The one that has not yet received the Holy Spirit and the one that has. So to make the distinction clear, I used belief for the first, faith for the other.

zoidar said:
I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.
>>>>

I can only reply to what you are actually saying, because I cannot read your mind and interpret what you, yourself, wrote.

The question I have for you is, if the Spirit indwells you because you have already repented and believed in Lord Jesus, then isn't that already the faith by which God saves you? Why would the Spirit indwell you if you did not already possess a Gospel faith in Lord Jesus by which God saves you???

The thing is you are not saved by the repentance and the faith in the gospel, through the repentance and the faith in the gospel God indwells you with the Spirit by which you are saved. I don't know how else to explain this.

That is understood, so it's not an issue. We discussed that before, and we came to an understanding. We never disagreed on whether faith includes repentance, or involves confessing Jesus as our Lord whom we follow. Practically all my messages establish this fact of Scripture. Therefore, the context of any discussion about faith determines what faith is being discussed.

For instance, only twice does the NT state anything about confessing "Jesus is Lord," but the context of the NT clearly teaches that those who truly believe, receive him as Lord of their lives. The same with "repentance" .... Rarely do we find NT Scripture that uses the words "faith" and "repentance" together in the same verse; rather, the NT makes clear that the faith by which God saves us always includes repentance; and so, "faith" and "repentance" are used interchangeably or synonymously.

Yes, we do not disagree on that. Not an issue.

Well, you did say that those who repent and believe in Lord Jesus receive the faith to be saved after receiving the Spirit. Yet, the Scriptures I gave plainly teach that we are "children of God by faith;" and that, because we are children, the Spirit indwells us.

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And because we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba,[a] Father!”

These Passages contradict what you actually stated. So, I asked you: 'Do you believe what these Scriptures actually state, or do you reject them?'

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
— Galatians 3:26 - 4:6

You are pulling out two verses from this passage to make your case. The thing is Galatians 3:26 might explain that they are sons through faith, since they have received God's Spirit. It is the faith that leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, which saves the person. Galatians 4:6 might say since they are sons, it shows God has indwelled them with the Spirit, or else they wouldn't be sons.

The Faith God accepts to be saved always includes repentance. Unless we are talking about a dead faith, it is assumed that faith always includes repentance, and also confessing Jesus is Lord of us. The New Testament rarely includes the words "repentance" and "faith" together in the same verse because it is understood that there is only one faith by which God saves us. And that is the faith we are discussing.

Ephesians 2:4-6 (WEB) 4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, {{{one faith}}}, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all, and in us all.

I will say though, that your messages appear to indicate that there are two faiths - the faith (1) we confess after hearing the Gospel, and the faith (2) given to you by the Spirit. No such Scriptures. There is only ONE Faith by which God saves us.

Yes the unbeliever gets faith in the gospel, repents, turns to God, and God indwells the person with the Holy Spirit, saves the person, which gives the person a living relationship with Christ. It's not that it's another faith, it's just that the person is brought alive by the Spirit.

How can a person be regenerated by the Spirit without indwelling them???

Salvation only happens when the Spirit indwells the believer, and the Spirit only indwells the believer by faith.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

John 4:13 (WEB) 13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become {{{in him}}} a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The believer is given life in the Spirit when the Spirit indwells him, and you only receive the Spirit by faith.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive."

You gave a link to a commentary; however, commentaries frequently disagree on a number of doctrines. What do the Scriptures teach us? What do the Scriptures I quoted teach us about regeneration of the Spirit?

The fact is that the Spirit was not yet given because the Lord Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The Old Testament, including to the time Lord Jesus was on the earth, the promise of the Spirit had not yet been poured out on believers to guide them and give them life.

John 16:7-8 (WEB) 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I don’t go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The Book of Ezekiel is a prophetic book, and so is discussing a future time. If you disagree, then you cannot use an unclear Passage to explain away the NT Scriptures that fully reveals what the OT only said in part, being a mystery.

What about the Psalms?

Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
— Psalm 51:11

What you are trying to do is to use the OT to interpret the mystery of the NT, when the reverse is actually the case. We are to interpret the OT with the NT - the mystery revealed.

1 Peter 1:12 (WEB) 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Colossians 2:1-4 (NIV) 2 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally (in writing). 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Ephesians 3:4-6 (NIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[Chaleb]

Chaleb, you can blame it all on me if that makes you feel better, but we are discussing what Paul actually taught,

You are under the self deception that .... if you post verses, you are proving your point.
A lot of people on forums are under the self delusion that if they can "cut and paste" 100 bible verses, or if they cut and past from a commentary on line, they are a "teacher".

Never believe it, Setse777.

 

[setst777]

The thing is you are not saved by the repentance and the faith in the gospel, through the repentance and the faith in the gospel God indwells you with the Spirit by which you are saved. I don't know how else to explain this.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
— Galatians 3:26 - 4:6

You are pulling out two verses from this passage to make your case. The thing is Galatians 2:26 might explain that they are sons through faith, since they have received God's Spirit. It is the faith that leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, which saves the person.

The two Passages you say I pulled are not changed in any way by the context you quoted. They still mean the same thing.

So now you know why I say that you object to what the Scriptures actually teach in the following:

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And {{{because}}} we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba,[a] Father!”

We are saved by faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:16). Do you agree with this Passage, or reject it?

Yes the unbeliever gets faith in the gospel, repents, turns to God, and God indwells the person with the Holy Spirit, saves the person, which gives the person a living relationship with Christ. It's not that it's another faith, it's just brought alive by the Spirit.

What about the Psalms?

Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
— Psalm 51:11

Yes, God justifies and saves, and indwells by His Spirit, those who Believe in His Son.

No two faiths are being taught here. God saves those who believe in Lord Jesus.

John 3:14-16 (WEB)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

That is the Gospel. Yet, you want to hold onto your opinion that there are two faiths. There is only One Faith by which God saves us and indwells us by His Spirit, and that Faith includes repentance - to crucify the old master, and now commit to follow Lord Jesus. This is the faith, the only ONE Faith by which God elects and wills to save us, indwelling those who believe by His Spirit. No Second Faith is taught in Scripture - not in the OT or the NT.

 

[Chaleb]

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

You just taught a New Testament denying lie.

I'll show you..

Paul teaches..."if any person has not the Spirit of Christ, then they are NONE OF GOD's"

You just posted the opposite of TRUTH, because you and your "church" dont know anything about Paul's Doctrine, or about Salvation, according to your very own posted Lie., that you were taught by your "church".

Now, come and lie again., and i show you again what Paul said about you, setst777

 

[setst777]

You are under the self deception that .... if you post verses, you are proving your point.
A lot of people on forums are under the self delusion that if they can "cut and paste" 100 bible verses, or if they cut and past from a commentary on line, they are a "teacher".

Never believe it, Setse777.

I choose to believe in God's Words, while you choose to believe in your prideful opinions. That is the difference.

You say I should never believe God's Words, but God says to believe in His Words. I will trust in God, because only God can save me.

 

[setst777]

You just taught a New Testament denying lie.

I'll show you..

Paul teaches..."if any person has not the Spirit of Christ, then they are NONE OF GOD's"

You just posted the opposite of TRUTH, because you and your "church" dont know anything about Paul's Doctrine, or about Salvation, according to your very own posted Lie., that you were taught by your "church".

Now, come and lie again., and i show you again what Paul said about you, setst777

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And {{{because}}} we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

In the NT, the Spirit indwells those who believe - the Children of God.

 

[Chaleb]

I choose to believe in God's Words, while you choose to believe in your prideful opinions.

You just lied to this forum.

You stated that you can be a Son of God, "without receiving the Spirit".

I showed you your lie, and i posted Paul's truth that said, that "if you have not the Spirit of God, you are not God's Son".

And i said you'd come and lie again.
And you'll do it more.
Watch and see.

 

[setst777]

You just lied to this forum.

You stated that you can be a Son of God, "without receiving the Spirit".

I showed you your lie, and i posted Paul's truth that said, that "if you have not the Spirit of God, you are not God's Son".

And i said you'd come and lie again.
And you'll do it more.
Watch and see.

Don't shoot the messenger. I quoted the Scriptures and you called the Scriptures a lie. What does God say about those who blaspheme the Spirit?

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And {{{because}}} we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

In the NT, the Spirit indwells those who believe - the Children of God.

 

[Chaleb]

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

that's a lie.

You can't be born again, unless you have become "the temple of the Holy Spirit"

You have to be joined to God, spiritually to become "Christ in You the Hope of GLory......>"in Christ".

Without this, you are not born again, and you are not a Son of God.

"He that hath not the Spirit of God, is NOT a Son of God".
-
King James Bible
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

New King James Version
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

American Standard Version
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Berean Study Bible
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

English Revised Version
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

World English Bible
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

Young's Literal Translation
And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His;

 

[Chaleb]

Don't shoot the messenger.

I dont shoot messengers.

I just allow The Cross and Paul to expose the deceivers.
As you know.

 

[setst777]

that's a lie.

You can't be born again, unless you have become "the temple of the Holy Spirit"

You have to be joined to God, spiritually to become "Christ in You the Hope of GLory......>"in Christ".

Without this, you are not born again, and you are not a Son of God.

"He that hath not the Spirit of God, is NOT a Son of God".
-
King James Bible
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

New King James Version
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

American Standard Version
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Berean Study Bible
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

English Revised Version
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

World English Bible
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

Young's Literal Translation
And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His;

Again you call God's Word a lie. You can't use one Scripture to call another Scripture a lie. No Christians would do that.

"Romans 8:9-10" does not refute "Galatians 3:26" and "Galatians 4:6;" rather, they compliment each other.

We are children of God by faith (Galatians 3:26), and because we are children, God sends His Spirit into our hearts (Galatians 4:6). That is the context, and the context does not disagree with "Romans 8:9-10." The Scriptures are in full agreement.

For you to come onto a Christian Board and say some Scriptures are a lie is sacrilege.

 

[zoidar]

The two Passages you say I pulled are not changed in any way by the context you quoted. They still mean the same thing.

So now you know why I say that you object to what the Scriptures actually teach in the following:

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And {{{because}}} we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba,[a] Father!”

I don't object to Scripture, but your interpretation of Scripture

We are saved by faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:16). Do you agree with this Passage, or reject it?

Agree, since you receive the Spirit through faith (and repentance), you are saved by faith.

Yes, God justifies and saves, and indwells by His Spirit, those who Believe in His Son.

No two faiths are being taught here. God saves those who believe in Lord Jesus.

John 3:14-16 (WEB)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

That is the Gospel. Yet, you want to hold onto your opinion that there are two faiths. There is only One Faith by which God saves us and indwells us by His Spirit, and that Faith includes repentance - to crucify the old master, and now commit to follow Lord Jesus. This is the faith, the only ONE Faith by which God elects and wills to save us, indwelling those who believe by His Spirit. No Second Faith is taught in Scripture - not in the OT or the NT.

There is living faith and dead faith. You can believe the gospel and still have dead faith. But more importantly it's being born again or not been born again by the Holy Spirit. If you are born again you are a child of God. You are not a child of God before being born again, no matter what faith a person says he has.

If a person has a living relationship with Christ, it shows he has been born again, indeed.

 

[setst777]

I don't object to Scripture, but your interpretation of Scripture

Agree, since you receive the Spirit through faith (and repentance), you are saved by faith.


There is living faith and dead faith. You can believe the gospel and still have dead faith. But more importantly it's being born again or not been born again by the Holy Spirit. If you are born again you are a child of God. You are not a child of God before being born again, no matter what faith a person says he has.

If a person has a living relationship with Christ, it shows he has been born again, indeed.

Are you saying that the faith in Lord Jesus, which includes repentance, is a dead faith???

Here is what you wrote again that I was responding to - are you saying the first faith is a dead faith?

Below are quotes from you that you try to show there are two different faiths - one faith by which we receive the Spirit, and another faith we receive by the Spirit so we can be saved

<<<<
zoidar said:
What would you do with my story then? I came to believe that Jesus did die for us and that he was resurrected from the dead. As I got home from work I asked God for forgiveness and I received the Holy Spirit. I then believed in Jesus for my salvation. What would then be the difference of the belief I had prior to salvation and the belief after? How can you describe that without using different words? Both are "believes" yet different, one salvific, one not.

zoidar said:
Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.
However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

zoidar said:
That's kind of what I'm saying there are two kinds of faith/belief. The one that has not yet received the Holy Spirit and the one that has. So to make the distinction clear, I used belief for the first, faith for the other.

zoidar said:
I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.
>>>>

 

[zoidar]

Are you saying that the faith in Lord Jesus, which includes repentance, is a dead faith???

Here is what you wrote again that I was responding to - are you saying the first faith is a dead faith?

Below are quotes from you that you try to show there are two different faiths - one faith by which we receive the Spirit, and another faith we receive by the Spirit so we can be saved

<<<<
zoidar said:
What would you do with my story then? I came to believe that Jesus did die for us and that he was resurrected from the dead. As I got home from work I asked God for forgiveness and I received the Holy Spirit. I then believed in Jesus for my salvation. What would then be the difference of the belief I had prior to salvation and the belief after? How can you describe that without using different words? Both are "believes" yet different, one salvific, one not.

zoidar said:
Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.
However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

zoidar said:
That's kind of what I'm saying there are two kinds of faith/belief. The one that has not yet received the Holy Spirit and the one that has. So to make the distinction clear, I used belief for the first, faith for the other.

zoidar said:
I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.
>>>>

If repentance is genuine, you will receive God's Spirit and that faith is salvific since you receive God's Spirit. But the faith is not saving you before you receive the Spirit. Call it whatever you want.

 

[fhansen]

Walking in the Spirit is not performed as a self effort.

Of course it is; it’s both/and. God does not force us to remain in Him but draws and. appeals to us to do so. To the extent that we engage in sin, we are not doing so.

 

[fhansen]

People who are not born again, but are very religious, try to emulate Jesus.
They die and go to hell.
Why?
Because Jesus isn't looking for ACTORS.

He's looking for this....

"You must be born again"..

An ACTOR is someone who thinks they’re a saint by mere declaration while still sinning, similar to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

 

[fhansen]

There is no Sin found "in Christ".

= all the born again are "in Christ".

Then all the born again never sin in truth, never commit a sinful act in thought, word, or deed. One must participate in pretense to believe that about themselves. Salvation is about real righteousness, not an imputed one. That’s the basic error you’ve bought into. That obligation, to be personally righteous in order to see God, is not done away with under the new covenant but actually made possible to fulfill. That’s the purpose of the Cross, by reconciling us and establishing union with God.. We cheapen the Cross, our faith, and the concept of being born again when we conceive them to result in little more than a reprieve from the penalty of sin.

 

[Chaleb]

Of course it is; it’s both/and.

Salvation is Spiritual

The Bible is Spiritual.

Being "in Christ" is Spiritual

Being Born again is Spiritual.

"rightly dividing the word".... is Spiritual.

The walk of FAITH< is Spiritual

"God is A Spirit".


What isn't spiritual?

Trying to be like Christ, by keeping law, commandments, and doing good works, which is what you are trying to prove is "spirituak" or "walking in the SPIRIT".

"Walking in the SPIRIT", does not say.....keeping commandments and doing good.

Just read it, as its not that difficult to see that "Spirit" is not "present your body a living sacrifice".

 

[Chaleb]

An ACTOR is someone who thinks they’re a saint by mere declaration while still sinning, similar to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

A "christian" faker, is one who is not born again, and would teach that you dont have to be born again, or have the Spirit of God in you, to be a "Christian".

See that?
That is someone who does not have the Spirit of God in them, who thinks they are a Christian., and so does their CULT.
They are "religious but LOST".

Also,...... once a person has lost Faith in Christ, and is now trying to go to heaven by works, and commandment keeping and law... then this person is now FAKING their Christianity, because they are "fallen from Grace"., and 'in the flesh".

They dont understand that only GOD makes A Christian.
Whereas the Law and commandments prove you're a sinner.

"The Law is the power of Sin, the power of sin is the LAW"

The Cross is the Grace of God that redeems the world, one BELIEVER at a time.

= No water, law, or commandments, required.