Justification and Sanctification ?

[Clare73]

Yes indeed, God has promised that all of those who have truly been regenerated will be transformed by the sanctifying, purifying work of God the Holy Spirit.

Does that include
the obedience which leads to righteousness (Ro 6:16); i.e.,
wholehearted (willing) obedience to the moral and ethical teachings of Christ (Ro 6:17) and,
in human terms, offering themselves in slavery to righteousness instead of slavery to sin (Ro 6:19)?

 

[fhansen]

Yes indeed, God has promised that all of those who have truly been regenerated will be transformed by the sanctifying, purifying work of God the Holy Spirit.

Most believe that no sinners will enter heaven and that God, in His way, will ultimately accomplish true sinlessness in us in the next life prior to entrance. But in this life there are at least four different perspectives on this matter.

• Personal sinless perfection is possible-and required-for a believer. This is not a common belief even though the very early church tended towards this position, with some biblical support. Either way sin was not taken lightly to put it mildly nor was faith considered to earn one a permanent reprieve from the penalty of sin.
• Sinless perfection is guaranteed to a believer as an imputed righteousness so that God sees one as righteous despite our still being sinners in truth. At its extreme-and taking this concept to its logical extension-this perspective understands that no gravity or amount of sin can separate one from God as long as he believes.
• Christ’s righteousness is imputed to a believer and yet he must overcome sin and is empowered to do so by the Spirit and is guaranteed to overcome it, growing in holiness even while sinless perfection is not expected in this life.
• The righteousness of Christ/God is given to a believer by virtue of union with Him; sinless perfection is not expected in this life and yet the believer must be on that path, overcoming sin more than being overcome by it as he’s empowered to do so by the Spirit but not guaranteed to do so. He must still strive, with the help of grace, to work out his salvation with His Creator throughout whatever time he’s given in this life, remaining in Him, walking by the Spirit in faith, hope, and love.

Numbers 1, 2, & 4 would definitively deny that persistence in gross sins such as the deeds of the flesh listed in Gal 5 would be consistent with the life of a believer-and would hold that such sins would exclude him from heaven. And they can all be reasonably enough supported by Scripture. Number 4, FWIW, is the position held by the early churches in the east and west, and is reflected virtually unanimously in the writings of the early fathers.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Most believe that no sinners will enter heaven and that God, in His way, will ultimately accomplish true sinlessness in us in the next life prior to entrance. But in this life there are at least four different perspectives on this matter.

• Personal sinless perfection is possible-and required-for a believer. This is not a common belief even though the very early church tended towards this position, with some biblical support.
• Sinless perfection is guaranteed to a believer as an imputed righteousness so that God sees one as righteous despite our still being sinners in truth. At its extreme-and taking it to its logical extension-this perspective understands that no gravity or amount of sin can separate one from God as long as he believes.
• Christ’s righteousness is imputed to a believer and yet he must overcome sin and is empowered to do so by the Spirit and guaranteed to overcome it, growing in holiness even if sinless perfection is not expected in this life.
• The righteousness of Christ/God is given to a believer by virtue of union with Him; sinless perfection is not expected in this life and yet the believer must be on that path, overcoming sin more than being overcome by it as he’s empowered to do so by the Spirit but not guaranteed to do so. He must still strive, with the help of grace, to work out his salvation with His Creator throughout whatever time he’s given in this life, remaining in Him, walking by the Spirit in faith, hope, and love.

Numbers 1, 2, & 4 would definitively deny that persistence in gross sins such as the deeds of the flesh listed in Gal 5 would be consistent with the life of a believer-and would hold that such sins would exclude him from heaven. And they can all be reasonably well enough supported by Scripture. Number 4, FWIW, is the position held by the early churches in the east and west, and is reflected virtually unanimously in the writings of the early

You said, "He must still strive, with the help of grace, to work out his salvation ". Agreed, however, what many people fail to recognize [in Philippians 2:12-13] is this .... the salvation that they are working out is one that could only be gained through trusting in another's work ... the atoning work of Jesus Christ. They are not said to be working [for] it .... but instead to be working [out] that salvation which was already purchased for them.

All those who truly have been regenerated will strive, with the help of God's grace, to work out their salvation [to pursue the will of God for each of their individual lives]. You believe that some regenerated followers of Christ will fail to strive hard enough, and, as a result will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity [that is, some will "miss the final cut" to qualify for a position on "team Heaven" - a spot on the final roster for the only team that will be playing throughout eternity in Heaven] ... a position that I strongly disagree with. [if I've misrepresented your position please correct me ... and my apologies in advance].

 

[Dah'veed]

John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

Yes, those who believe receive the Spirit to guide those who have put their faith in Lord Jesus, ...

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:20
Believers, you are of God, you belong to Christ and have already overcome them; because He who is in you is greater than he
is now at work in those who are disobedient, sinful, depraved mankind. 1 John 4:4

John 3:14-18 (WEB)
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

For when you were enslaved to sin, you had no part in Christ's righteousness...[Philippians 3:9]
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:20-23

 

[Rapture Bound]

Does that include
the obedience which leads to righteousness (Ro 6:16); i.e.,
wholehearted (willing) obedience to the moral and ethical teachings of Christ (Ro 6:17) and,
in human terms, offering themselves in slavery to righteousness instead of slavery to sin (Ro 6:19)?

Yes indeed, the new nature acquired at the new birth will necessarily lead to new desires and a willing heart to obey the moral and ethical teachings of Christ. Now what that looks like precisely, how that plays out in real life, is where the confusion and controversies emanate from. It appears to me that it will look very imperfect at times, but nevertheless, the Lord knows who His children are.

2 Timothy 2:19-21, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

 

[Dah'veed]

Yes indeed, the new nature acquired at the new birth will necessarily lead to new desires and a willing heart to obey the moral and ethical teachings of Christ. Now what that looks like precisely, how that plays out in real life, is where the confusion and controversies emanate from. It appears to me that it will look very imperfect at times, but nevertheless, the Lord knows who His children are.

2 Timothy 2:19-21, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, so that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. Heaven must receive Him until the time of the restoration of all things, Acts 3:19-21

Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, live in peace; Rejoice in the spiritual wholeness believers attain in Christ; and the God of love and peace will remain with you. 2 Cor 13:11

 

[setst777]

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:20
Believers, you are of God, you belong to Christ and have already overcome them; because He who is in you is greater than he
is now at work in those who are disobedient, sinful, depraved mankind. 1 John 4:4

For when you were enslaved to sin, you had no part in Christ's righteousness...[Philippians 3:9]
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:20-23

Regarding "1 John 2:20," I agree that true believers do have the Spirit dwelling in them, and they know the truth.

Regarding "1 John 4:4," yes, I agree that the Spirit is the guide of the true believer, giving the believer victory over sin and death. And, as we know, the believer has victory over sin as he remains in the faith manifested by living and walking in the Spirit by the same faith by which they received the Spirit. The indwelling Spirit gives eternal life to who? He give eternal life to those believers who continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (EWEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let {{us}} not be weary in doing good, for {{we}} will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up.

By living for the flesh Christian is weak and is in danger of destruction, but if the Christian continues to walk in the Spirit he fulfills the whole law.

Romans 8:3-4 (EWEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And so, John, in agreement with the Apostle Paul, warns the believers to remain in Christ to remain in the Son and the Father.

1 John 2:24 (WEB) Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father.

Regarding "Philippians 3:9," I agree. A true believer does not continue to live in any sin.

Regarding "Romans 6:20-23," I agree with you that the free gift of eternal life is for those who are in Christ. And as "Romans 6:20-23" teaches us, we are in Christ by renouncing sin (Romans 6:12-19), which is being freed from sin, and living sanctified in righteousness.

 

[Dah'veed]

Regarding "1 John 2:20," I agree that true believers do have the Spirit dwelling in them, and they know the truth.

Regarding "1 John 4:4," yes, I agree that the Spirit is the guide of the true believer, giving the believer victory over sin and death. And, as we know, the believer has victory over sin as he remains in the faith manifested by living and walking in the Spirit by the same faith by which they received the Spirit. The indwelling Spirit gives eternal life to who?

Those who are governed by the flesh cannot please God.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. Rom 8:8-9

Galatians 6:7-9 (EWEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let {{us}} not be weary in doing good, for {{we}} will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up.

And so, John, in agreement with the Apostle Paul, warns the believers to remain in Christ to remain in the Son and the Father.

1 John 2:24 (WEB) Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father.

Regarding "Romans 6:20-23," I agree with you that the free gift of eternal life is for those who are in Christ. And as "Romans 6:20-23" teaches us, we are in Christ by renouncing sin (Romans 6:12-19), which is being freed from sin, and living sanctified in righteousness.

Since we have a great Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with full assurance of faith; Heb 10:21-23

For a slave does not remain in the household forever, but a son does remain forever.
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:35-36

 

[setst777]

Those who are governed by the flesh cannot please God.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. Rom 8:8-9

But if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36

Dah'veed, to come to an accurate understanding of what God intended in context, then we must accept the full council of God within the Gospel Revelation rather than pitting Scripture against Scripture. All the Scriptures relate harmoniously to give us the Truth of the Fullness of the Gospel.

True, anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Who are the ones who possess the Spirit of Christ?

The answer is: The believers

The Spirit indwells who?

The answer is: The believers who demonstrate their faith by obedience:

Acts 5:32 (ESV) 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

John 14:15-16 (ESV) 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth

John 14:23-24 (ESV) If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words.

Therefore, we reveal our faith by continuing in the faith manifested by keeping his commandments.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

To keep his commandments is to live by the Spirit, and as we live for and sow to the Spirit without giving up, then the Spirit gives us eternal life. That is the guarantee of the Spirit of God to the believer.

Galatians 6:7-9 (EWEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let {{us}} not be weary in doing good, for {{we}} will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up.

 

[Dah'veed]

Dah'veed, to come to an accurate understanding of what God intended in context, then we must accept the full council of God within the Gospel Revelation rather than pitting Scripture against Scripture. All the Scriptures relate harmoniously to give us the Truth of the Fullness of the Gospel.

And of course, as John pointed out, believers receive the anointing of Christ who is the way, the truth and the life.

True, anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Who are the ones who possess the Spirit of Christ?

The answer is: The believers

In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, having believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13

The Spirit indwells who?

Now the one who has prepared us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit; 2 Cor 5:5

The answer is: The believers who demonstrate their faith by obedience:

Acts 5:32 (ESV) 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

John 14:15-16 (ESV) 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth

Since you have purified your souls in obedience to the truth 1 Peter 1:18-23

 

[setst777]

And of course, as John pointed out, believers receive the anointing of Christ who is the way, the truth and the life.

In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, having believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13

Now the one who has prepared us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit; 2 Cor 5:5

Since you have purified your souls in obedience to the truth 1 Peter 1:18-23

Exactly. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Dah'veed]

Exactly. Thanks for sharing.

Since we have fellowship of the Spirit of Christ, being of the same mind, having the same love, knit together in spirit, intent on one purpose [ living in accordance to your faith, spreading the gospel—the good news regarding salvation through faith in Christ. Phil 2:1-2

This salvation was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, and has now been made evident through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:9-10

Live in Me, and I will live in you; if you're not in unity with Me, you cannot bear fruit; John 15:4

 

[setst777]

Since we have fellowship of the Spirit of Christ, being of the same mind, having the same love, knit together in spirit, intent on one purpose [ living in accordance to your faith, spreading the gospel—the good news regarding salvation through faith in Christ. Phil 2:1-2

This salvation was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, and has now been made evident through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:9-10

Live in Me, and I will live in you; if you're not in unity with Me, you cannot bear fruit; John 15:4

I am not sure what your intent is by referencing those Scriptures. The Scriptures you referenced are wonderful, and reveal God's gracious provision for sinners that God planned from eternity. However, my feeling is you are either a Calvinist or Reformist, and so, the Passages you quoted are being understood by you according to your doctrine. Am I correct? I will respond as if that were correct, because otherwise, I am not sure what point you are making, since you are not actually dialoguing with me regarding your beliefs or intentions.

This eternal gracious plan of God is by the Gospel, and this grace is granted to all of humanity through faith in Christ (Philippians 2:1-2).

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we [those who believe: vs. 1) also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

2 Timonthy 1:8-12 (WEB) 8 Therefore don’t be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but endure hardship for the Good News according to the power of God, 9 who saved us [we who believe] and called us [we who believe] with a holy calling [the Gospel: John 3:16] not according to our works [no works of ours can save us], but according to his own purpose and grace [to save those who believe: 1 Corinthians 1:21], which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal [God's eternal plan is to save those believe in Him: Isaiah 45:22], 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News. 11 For this I was appointed as a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this cause I also suffer these things.

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

The holy calling of salvation is from God and is for the ends of the earth, to whoever will look to him and believe.

Luke 5:32 (WEB) I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Isaiah 45:22 (WEB) 22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

God shows no partiality, but saves all who will call upon him because of the Gospel.

Romans 10:12-13 (WEB) 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” [Joel 2:32]

Romans 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who does good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

Timothy remained saved if he continued in the doctrine he was taught.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

As you can see, when read in context, the Scriptures clearly teach us that God's plan from eternity was to save those who believe because of the Gospel. This faith is demonstrated to be genuine by good works.

Titus 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

Notice that the Scriptures do not state that God's plan is to save by the Gospel those whom God shows partiality and favoritism by giving some faith by regeneration to be saved, while decreeing the rest of humanity to eternal condemnation without a fair chance. Rather, God so loved the world that whosoever believes (present and continuous believing) in His Son is saved.

 

[fhansen]

You said, "He must still strive, with the help of grace, to work out his salvation ". Agreed, however, what many people fail to recognize [in Philippians 2:12-13] is this .... the salvation that they are working out is one that could only be gained through trusting in another's work ... the atoning work of Jesus Christ. They are not said to be working [for] it .... but instead to be working [out] that salvation which was already purchased for them.

All those who truly have been regenerated will strive, with the help of God's grace, to work out their salvation [to pursue the will of God for each of their individual lives]. You believe that some regenerated followers of Christ will fail to strive hard enough, and, as a result will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity [that is, some will "miss the final cut" to qualify for a position on "team Heaven" - a spot on the final roster for the only team that will be playing throughout eternity in Heaven] ... a position that I strongly disagree with. [if I've misrepresented your position please correct me ... and my apologies in advance].

Ok. The difference in our thinking here involves whether or not we-our wills-are at all involved in our turning to God -and then in our remaining in Him. From your perspective, once a person turns to God in faith they cannot turn back; salvation is a done deal and we're guaranteed to live as children of God should.

From my perspective we must participate, working out our salvation is an option. We must choose to pick up our cross daily-and follow. Everything is grace; God must come to us first. He seeks to draw a "yes" from us that counters the "no" which humankind first said to God in Eden. And from there He wants that "yes" to grow in loudness, to be confirmed in its resolve. And as it does we grow nearer to Him, and increasingly like Him-by virtue of that nearness since our righteousness, our love, to put it best, comes from Him. It's all His work, but a work He wants us to come to appreciate, love, and embrace for ourselves. Our own justice/righteousness is intrinsically bound up with our wanting it, wanting what He wants for us, for our own highest good..

So salvation is more than simply making it to heaven; it's to be changed, it's to become the beings He created us to be. It's to agree with Him, to be aligned with Him, to be one with Him, to begin to love as He does. That's our purpose. And it doesn't happen all at once.

Faith is the gateway...to Him. Full-blown love, for Himself and neighbor, is the goal, such that a teaching I'm familiar with can actually put it this way, quoting a 16th century believer in this case while summing up the gospel concisely:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That's the love Jesus showed us. And that love is both a divine gift, and a human choice.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Ok. The difference in our thinking here involves whether or not we-our wills-are at all involved in our turning to God -and then in our remaining in Him. From your perspective, once a person turns to God in faith they cannot turn back; salvation is a done deal and we're guaranteed to live as children of God should.

From my perspective we must participate, working out our salvation is an option. We must choose to pick up our cross daily-and follow. Everything is grace; God must come to us first. He seeks to draw a "yes" from us that counters the "no" which humankind first said to God in Eden. And from there He wants that "yes" to grow in loudness, to be confirmed in its resolve. And as it does we grow nearer to Him, and increasingly like Him-by virtue of that nearness since our righteousness, our love, to put it best, comes from Him. It's all His work, but a work He wants us to come to appreciate, love, and embrace for ourselves. Our own justice/righteousness is intrinsically bound up with our wanting it, wanting what He wants for us, for our own highest good..

So salvation is more than simply making it to heaven; it's to be changed, it's to become the beings He created us to be. It's to agree with Him, to be aligned with Him, to be one with Him, to begin to love as He does. That's our purpose. And it doesn't happen all at once.

Faith is the gateway...to Him. Full-blown love, for Himself and neighbor, is the goal, such that a teaching I'm familiar with can actually put it this way, quoting a 16th century believer in this case while summing up the gospel concisely:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That's the love Jesus showed us. And that love is both a divine gift, and a human choice.

You said, "Ok. The difference in our thinking here involves whether or not we-our wills-are at all involved in our turning to God -and then in our remaining in Him. From your perspective, once a person turns to God in faith they cannot turn back; salvation is a done deal and we're guaranteed to live as children of God should."

No, from my perspective, that's not the case at all. I really can't see how you read into my statements that I believe that the elect don't possess free moral agency both prior and subsequent to regeneration. Although a regenerate person could turn back [out of their free moral agency], they simply won't; they won't ultimately apostatize from the faith due to their renewed nature coupled with God's preserving means. The means that God utilizes are positive [blessings] and negative [warnings passages throughout the scriptures] along with his His chastening hand. A truly new creature in Christ will, in the end, respond to those means .... some take the easier road, while others may have to experience much more of their Father's disciplinary measures.

Yes, "salvation is a done deal" for all of those who have placed all their trust in Christ's atoning work on their behalf. Christ either took away all of a believer's sins [past, present, and future tenses] or he bore none of them on their behalf. His atoning work, on behalf of all trusting persons is finished ... it has been paid in full ... there remains no more penalty for sin for them to pay ... since they could have never paid for it in the first place. Those who truly don't believe this, rarely, if ever, mention the blood of Christ because they don't understand the extent of Christ's atonement.

 

[fhansen]

No, from my perspective, that's not the case at all. I really can't see how you read into my statements that I believe that the elect don't possess free moral agency both prior and subsequent to regeneration. Although a regenerate person could turn back [out of their free moral agency], they simply won't; they won't ultimately apostatize from the faith due to their renewed nature coupled with God's preserving means.

With all respect, I think that's a distinction without a difference. I mean, the elect will obviously persevere. But to predict that I or anyone else will persevere-that we're definitively numbered among the elect-is a totally different matter. God, alone, knows whose names are written in the Book of Life with perfect certainty.

 

[Dah'veed]

I am not sure what your intent is by referencing those Scriptures. The Scriptures you referenced are wonderful, and reveal God's gracious provision for sinners that God planned from eternity. However, my feeling is you are either a Calvinist or Reformist, and so, the Passages you quoted are being understood by you according to your doctrine. Am I correct? I will respond as if that were correct, because otherwise, I am not sure what point you are making, since you are not actually dialoguing with me regarding your beliefs or intentions.

There is only one gospel.
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, to deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. Gal 1:3-5

This eternal gracious plan of God is by the Gospel, and this grace is granted to all of humanity through faith in Christ (Philippians 2:1-2).
Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we [those who believe: vs. 1) also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
As you can see, when read in context, the Scriptures clearly teach us that God's plan from eternity was to save those who believe because of the Gospel. This faith is demonstrated to be genuine by good works.
Titus 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 looking for the blessed hope and a1pearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.
Notice that the Scriptures do not state that God's plan is to save by the Gospel those whom God shows partiality and favoritism by giving some faith by regeneration to be saved, while decreeing the rest of humanity to eternal condemnation without a fair chance. Rather, God so loved the world that whosoever believes (present and continuous believing) in His Son is saved.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:8-11

 

[Mark Quayle]

Living in the flesh with its sinful passions while we live by faith does humble us for sure, but if I am understanding you correctly, to say that you could not have lived out your faith in this life any better or less than what God has in mind for you, and what God is using you for, is not a Scripture teaching. God definitely holds us, even Christians, responsible for how we live out our faith in this life, and not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.

I don't follow that first sentence. You understand me to say that me living this life doing only what God had decreed that I do, etc —Are you saying that you understand me to say that is NOT a Scripture teaching? Or are YOU saying that it is not a Scriptural teaching?

That second sentence sounds like something I said —probably something like, "If God did not ordain something to happen it didn't happen— implies to you that I think we are not responsible for how we live our lives.

If this is true, "not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.", then they were "in" the faith but not of the faith.

 

[Dah'veed]

@setst777
I don't follow that first sentence. You understand me to say that me living this life doing only what God had decreed that I do, etc —Are you saying that you understand me to say that is NOT a Scripture teaching? Or are YOU saying that it is not a Scriptural teaching?
That second sentence sounds like something I said —probably something like, "If God did not ordain something to happen it didn't happen— implies to you that I think we are not responsible for how we live our lives.
If this is true, "not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.", then they were "in" the faith but not of the faith.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. [2 Peter 1:16-18] 1 John 2:19-20
As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
And this is what he promised us—eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25

 

[setst777]

I don't follow that first sentence. You understand me to say that me living this life doing only what God had decreed that I do, etc —Are you saying that you understand me to say that is NOT a Scripture teaching? Or are YOU saying that it is not a Scriptural teaching?

That second sentence sounds like something I said —probably something like, "If God did not ordain something to happen it didn't happen— implies to you that I think we are not responsible for how we live our lives.

If this is true, "not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.", then they were "in" the faith but not of the faith.

In answer to your questions, I wrote just what I wrote. Please review again what I stated as follows:

"if I am understanding you correctly, to say that you could not have lived out your faith in this life any better or less than what God has in mind for you, and what God is using you for, is not a Scripture teaching."

If you are a Reformist or Calvinist, then the responsibility you feel you possess to live out your faith is actually God working in you in the way God decreed to do so from eternity, set in stone; for nothing occurs outside of God's sovereign will and decree.

How are "in Christ" or "of Christ" different? Apply your response to the terms: "in the faith" or "of the faith."

IN THE FAITH

1 Corinthians 16:13 (WEB) 13 Watch! Stand firm in the faith! Be courageous! Be strong!

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB) 5 Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know about your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Philippians 1:25 (WEB) 25 Having this confidence, I know that I will remain, yes, and remain with you all for your progress and joy in the faith

Colossians 1:22-23 (WEB) 22 yet now he has reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without defect and blameless before him, 23 if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the Good News which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, was made a servant.

Colossians 2:6-7 (WEB) 6 As therefore you received Christ Jesus, the Lord, walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, even as you were taught, abounding in it in thanksgiving.

Titus 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 This testimony is true. For this cause, reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

==============

OF THE FAITH

Romans 4:11 (WEB) 11 He received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all those who believe

Galatians 6:10 (WEB) 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let’s do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of the faith.

Ephesians 1:15 (WEB) 15 For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which you have toward all the saints

Ephesians 4:13 (WEB) 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God

1 Timothy 3:8-9 (WEB) 8 Servants, in the same way, must be reverent, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

The Scriptures I fully quoted for you in my previous response [setst777 said:] plainly teaches what it means to be in Christ, and in the faith by which God elects to save us. Carefully review the Scriptures I provided: Luke 21:34-36; Galatians 6:7-9; Romans 8:12-14; Hebrews 4:1; Hebrews 4:11; 1 Corinthians 10:11-12; Romans 11:20-22.