Justification and Sanctification ?

[Chaleb]

I see-that's a new one on me. But we cannot allow our preferred theology to undermine truth.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, you are saying that you'll just remain in your "preferred theology" to disagree with Paul.
Ok.
Thats on you.

However, Im the one that showed you what He teaches, and you immediately decided that"... "well, how can that be right".
It can be right, and is right, when you know some theology, as Paul's Doctrine.
Its all i teach.

Also, walking in the spirit is not trying to be like Christ, and its not about keeping the law and commandments.

Walking in the SPIRIT< is done Spiritually, and that is not what you've heard before, and you'll not hear it in your denomination, ever... but dont let them keep you from HEARING me.

Now let me explain this....>"works of the flesh",.... this isnt a sin, unless you are a unbeliever, not born again.

First of all, for a sin to be held to your account, you have to be :

1.) Under the law

2.) God has to hold you accountable.

Well, the Cross, removes both of these, and that is why Romans 4:8 says that GOD does not charge sin to the Born again.
And that is why 2 Corinthians 5:19 says the same THING.....exactly...yet, that verse has a condition, which is the "hearing of faith". and believing in Christ.
That's PAULINE THEOLOGY....... not a church father, and not a denomination, not a baptist, methodist, catholic, berean, assembly of god, church of christ.

Here is another verse for you from Paul, who is talking again about works of the flesh, regarding a born again believer.

"Use not your liberty in Christ for an occasion to the FLESH".

What does that mean? It means.... (paraphrase) .....Use not the Grace of God, that has forgiven all your sin, to now go and enjoy a carnal deed on a Friday night.

Remember,= "where there is no law, there is no Transgression", and the born again "are not under the law, but under GRACE".

LAW, defines carnality as SIN

GRACE defines it as forgiven sin, and works of the flesh

 

[Chaleb]

The flesh and the Spirit are at odds with each other. That's what's wrong with man, that's why he sins, because he's alienated from the life of God within himself.

There is no war inside an unbeliever that is "at odds" with anything.
They dont have a born again spirit.
They are : "you are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do".

Does the devil have a war inside himself about killing unborn children, or having a group gang rape some catholic nuns ?

Who are you kidding?
Its the DEVIL's spirit and carnality that is the sin nature in a person, in an unbeliever., that is their "FALLEN nature".

Unbelievers ENJOY their sinning just as their Spiritual Father enjoys it.
They want MORE.
They dont struggle to stop, fhansen.
Their only struggle is not to get caught.

 

[setst777]

So, you are saying that you'll just remain in your "preferred theology" to disagree with Paul.
Ok.
Thats on you.

However, Im the one that showed you what He teaches, and you immediately decided that"... "well, how can that be right".
It can be right, and is right, when you know some theology, as Paul's Doctrine.
Its all i teach.

Also, walking in the spirit is not trying to be like Christ, and its not about keeping the law and commandments.

Walking in the SPIRIT< is done Spiritually, and that is not what you've heard before, and you'll not hear it in your denomination, ever... but dont let them keep you from HEARING me.

Now let me explain this....>"works of the flesh",.... this isnt a sin, unless you are a unbeliever, not born again.

First of all, for a sin to be held to your account, you have to be :

1.) Under the law

2.) God has to hold you accountable.

Well, the Cross, removes both of these, and that is why Romans 4:8 says that GOD does not charge sin to the Born again.
And that is why 2 Corinthians 5:19 says the same THING.....exactly...yet, that verse has a condition, which is the "hearing of faith". and believing in Christ.
That's PAULINE THEOLOGY....... not a church father, and not a denomination, not a baptist, methodist, catholic, berean, assembly of god, church of christ.

Here is another verse for you from Paul, who is talking again about works of the flesh, regarding a born again believer.

"Use not your liberty in Christ for an occasion to the FLESH".

What does that mean? It means.... (paraphrase) .....Use not the Grace of God, that has forgiven all your sin, to now go and enjoy a carnal deed on a Friday night.

Remember,= "where there is no law, there is no Transgression", and the born again "are not under the law, but under GRACE".

LAW, defines carnality as SIN

GRACE defines it as forgiven sin, and works of the flesh

I agree, as Paul taught, that we are not under the law, and so, there is no law to break in that regard (Romans 4).

However, as Paul also taught, believers are those who have renounced/crucified/died to the old master of the flesh and its passions, and now live by the Spirit - these are the ones who belong to Christ.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who {{{belong to Christ}}} have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 {{{If we}}} live by the Spirit, {{{let us}}} also walk by the Spirit.

Therefore, as Paul continues to teach us, the Christian fulfills the whole law by walking in the Spirit.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And so, Paul continues to teach us that the way of the Spirit is a {{{sanctified life}}}. Those Christians who reject this life of sanctification that Paul instructs are rejecting God.

2 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that {{{you}}} abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that {{{each one of you}}} know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned {{{you}}} and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also {{{given his Holy Spirit to you}}}.

And so, Paul admonishes and warns believers to continue walking in the Spirit {{{without giving up}}} so that the indwelling Spirit will give him Eternal Life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, if {{{we}}} do not give up.

And so, Paul admonishes the Christians that we are obligated to continue putting to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit to have Life.

Romans 8:12-13 (WEB) 12 So then, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, {{{we}}} have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit {{{you}}} put to death the deeds of the body, {{{you}}} will live.

Therefore, as Paul teaches us, a Christian can no longer live in sin, but rather, they are now slaves of righteousness, and the result of this sanctified life is Eternal Life.

Romans 6:1-22 (WEB)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

6 Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over him! 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore don’t let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 Also, do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be! 16 Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered. 18 Being made free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your {{{fruit of sanctification}}} and the result of eternal life.

 

[AbbaLove]

2. From fhansen's posts it sounds like he believes sins by a born again Christian (even murder, adultery) can't be foregiven by GOD even with deep sorrow confessing repentance with tears and remorseful sobbing.

I said nothing of the sort-just the opposite, in fact.

When reading your prevous post thought you were possibly referring to Hebrew 10:26 ... "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,​

www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html​

.
I'm in the process of reading commentaries on Romans 8:30 ... www.biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/8-30.htm
Do you have a favorite commentary you find more to your belief ... like Bible translations ?

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30).​

___________________________________________​

Born again - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

...lists how 13 denominations define - "born again" aka "born from above"
The term "reborn" is new to me. It makes me think of Webster's definiton ...

​

of, relating to, or being a usually Christian person who has made a renewed or confirmed commitment of faith especially after an intense religious experience​

 

[zoidar]

I do not deny your salvation, or your faith by which God saved you. God alone saves, and he saves those who put their faith in His Son.

• No Scriptures states that God saves us by giving us the faith to be saved.

I think you get stuck with the words I use, not seeing what I mean. You don't need to call it "saving faith", you can call it the "saved state". You have faith and call on the Lord and God indwells you with the Spirit/saves you, puts you in the "saved state"/puts you in a right relationship with God.

• ALL the Scriptures plainly state and teach that we are saved by faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:14-18).

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
— Romans 10:9-10

You see you are not saved only by believing, but by believing and confessing.

• If God gave you the faith to be saved, then wouldn't that mean that God guarantees your faith and your salvation?

I don't think so. You can always walk the other way, sadly so.

• If that were true that God gives you your faith to be saved, guaranteeing your faith and salvation, then why do the Scriptures warn us to remain faithful to the end to be saved, and gives examples of those who fell away from the faith?

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

I think repentance/confessing is to be included in the understanding of faith here. Paul assumes the reader understands if you have faith, you have also repented. Faith alone won't justify you, but repentance/confessing and faith (Romans 10:9-10).

Remember you were a child of God (saved) by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit. [Galatians 3:26; Galatians 4:6] ... Do you believe these Scriptures or do you reject them?

Who in their right mind would say they reject Scripture. The question is if you have the right understanding.

Before I answer your question, remember, that I gave you the Scriptures that teach:

• Whosoever believes God saves. We are saved by believing in Lord Jesus according to all the Scriptures (John 3:16).

Yes, repentance and faith.

• We receive the Promised Spirit by faith in Lord Jesus (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Repentance and faith

• The Spirit is a PROMISE for the New Covenant in Christ Jesus (John 7:38-39; Acts 2:32-33)

Again by repentance and faith

• The Promise of the Spirit is by faith in Lord Jesus, a faith by which we love Lord Jesus and obey His commands (John 15:15-16).

That kind of faith comes by repentance.

• There is no Scripture that states or teaches that God gives us faith to be saved after receiving the Spirit (???).

Already commented.

• All the OT saints believed in God before the Promise of the Spirit was ever given (Hebrews 8:8-10).

I agree.

• The Promised Spirit only occurred after the glorification of Lord Jesus, and began at Pentecost (John 7:37-39; Luke 24:49).

Maybe you are correct.

• There is only One Promise of the Spirit being referred to - one Spirit.

Luke 24:49 (WEB) 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Acts 2:32-33 (WEB) 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

Maybe there was no indwelling of the Spirit before Pentecost, but still OT believers were regenerated by the Spirit?

"The third position is the midpoint of the possible views. These scholars indicate that they see OT saints as regenerate by the Spirit but not indwelt by the Spirit. From statements in their writings, it seems best to place here Millard Erickson, J.I. Packer, Willem A. VanGemeren and Bruce Ware.7"

Were Old Covenant Believers Indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Introduction1 The Gospel of John states, ‘Unless one is born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter the Kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).2 Later in John we read that the Spirit will not be received until after Jesus is glorified (7:39). If the Spirit is not received until after the cross, could...

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Now to answer your question, whether believers were born again:

Believers in the OT, before Lord Jesus was glorified, were not born again by the indwelling Spirit; rather, the OT saints could only be saved AFTER Lord Jesus paid for their sins on the cross. Nevertheless, it was because they believed in God is the reason that God would graciously save them after the New Covenant was established.

But no one is eternally saved until judgment. We are in a saved state/a living relationship with God. If that's not the same with OT believers, they still were regenerated right? How if not by the Spirit?

Edit: I see now you say they were not regenerated at all. Ezekiel below seems to indicate otherwise.

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
— Ezekiel 36:25-26

Hebrews 9:13-15 (WEB) 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without defect to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions {{{that were under the first covenant}}}, that those who have been called {{{may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance}}}.

Romans 3:25-26 (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

The indwelling Spirit is a promise only for the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:8-10 (WEB)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, he said,

“Behold, the days come”, says the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn’t continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them,” says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord;
“I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart.
I will be their God, and they will be my people."

Of course OT believers will be eternally saved by the cross, we all agree on that.

 

[AbbaLove]

There is no war inside an unbeliever that is "at odds" with anything.

God sent HIS Son to redeem fallen sinful man The best place to start is with unbelievers not Goody Two Shoes.

The LORD can salvage those we'd give-up on as hell bent ... to advance the Kingdom of Heaven (John Newton)

 

[fhansen]

So, you are saying that you'll just remain in your "preferred theology" to disagree with Paul.

How so? Paul knew that it was sin. In fact, only in the case of one who sees the need to distinguish between sin and deeds of the flesh would a preferred theology be necessary-because the distinction is imaginary, requiring mental gymnastics as it were just to make it happen.

However, Im the one that showed you what He teaches, and you immediately decided that"... "well, how can that be right".

There's nothing new about Paul's teachings-and they're the same as Christ's and the other apostles/disciples- with his own emphasis added which resulted primarily from the revelation given him combined with his battle against legalism. The only thing new is a novel theology, based mainly on some teachings a few centuries old now, that you've bought into.

First of all, for a sin to be held to your account, you have to be :

1.) Under the law

2.) God has to hold you accountable.

In order for sin to kill us: separate us from the life of God, we must sin.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." Rom 2:12

Here is another verse for you from Paul, who is talking again about works of the flesh, regarding a born again believer.

"Use not your liberty in Christ for an occasion to the FLESH".

What does that mean? It means.... (paraphrase) .....Use not the Grace of God, that has forgiven all your sin, to now go and enjoy a carnal deed on a Friday night.

Remember,= "where there is no law, there is no Transgression", and the born again "are not under the law, but under GRACE".

LAW, defines carnality as SIN

GRACE defines it as forgiven sin, and works of the flesh

Your mistake is in failing to understand the meaning of grace. It's more than favor or forgiveness of sin, it's Gods life in you that overcomes the sin that otherwise brings you condemnation to death. The deeds of the flesh come by failing to walk by the Spirit, and will continue to earn one death as Gal 5 makes clear.

 

[fhansen]

There is no war inside an unbeliever that is "at odds" with anything.

Of course there is, which Paul described in Rom 7-or in the case of Gentiles struggling with their own consciences in Rom 2. Man already has the law written in his heart, but in his fallen, alienated state he fails to read it and often ignores/overrides it. Both believers and unbelievers struggle BTW. And as that struggle becomes strong enough, unbelievers may well be all the more primed to open the door when God knocks. And God is constantly calling believers to increased holiness as well, so that they, too, may respond to that grace in ever more serious manner.

Does the devil have a war inside himself about killing unborn children, or having a group gang rape some catholic nuns ?

Do all unbelievers abort and rape? You'd have to live alone in a cave to believe that.

All of this is simple enough. Being under the law brings about no salvation because it cannot bring about justification, righteousness, the overcoming of sin: "by the works of the law no one will be justified"- Gal 2:16. It can only succeed in teaching us what sin is, and convicting us of it. By being under grace, now united with God, we are truly justified, now finally able to overcome the sin that earns us death.

"...just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"-Rom 5:21

And love is the fullest definition of that righteousness, as love fulfills the law-it's what the law is based on, in fact. When we truly understand the gospel and what God wants for and from us, we'll better understand the meaning of these words and the purpose of the gospel:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That love is the goal of faith, as union with God, the source of love, is the goal of faith.

 

[fhansen]

When reading your prevous post thought you were possibly referring to Hebrew 10:26 ... "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

I would suggest reading the posts a bit more thoroughly. That's all been addressed, including the related church history where the change was made from an extremely no-sin-allowed position to a more merciful one.

I'm in the process of reading commentaries on Romans 8:30 ... www.biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/8-30.htm
Do you have a favorite commentary you find more to your belief ... like Bible translations ?

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30).

From a catechism I'm familiar with, based on centuries of church figures wrestling with these matters.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance"

...lists how 13 denominations define - "born again" aka "born from above"
The term "reborn" is new to me. It makes me think of Webster's definiton ...
of, relating to, or being a usually Christian person who has made a renewed or confirmed commitment of faith especially after an intense religious experience

Well, its quite easy for us humans to get sort of stuck on terms that we're familiar with-but a rose is a rose by any other name. A person who has been born again or born from above has been, simply enough, reborn.

 

[fhansen]

Well, the Cross, removes both of these, and that is why Romans 4:8 says that GOD does not charge sin to the Born again.
And that is why 2 Corinthians 5:19 says the same THING.....exactly...yet, that verse has a condition, which is the "hearing of faith". and believing in Christ.
That's PAULINE THEOLOGY....... not a church father, and not a denomination, not a baptist, methodist, catholic, berean, assembly of god, church of christ.

The problem is that you fail to understand Pauline theology. Again, the reason that a born again person is not condemned of sin is only because he's now empowered to overcome it, to have accomplished in himself what the law could not.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:1-4, 12-14

Again, John reminds us of what this true righteousness consists of:

"The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:6-10

It's quite simple: sin earns us death; Christ earned us forgiveness of and freedom from sin. We're not free from the obligation to meet the righteous requirements of the law, that would be absurd. We're free from being "under the law", which means that, by my own efforts, with my own "righteousness", I attempt to meet those righteous requirements, to be holy, just. ME, solo. But the first step under the new covenant is not to prove how holy we are-the law proves that such is not the case-but it's to turn to God in faith, who, alone, can make me righteous, who He created me to be. Me and HIM, together. Then it can be done.- without my even needing to know the law.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

 

[fhansen]

Also, walking in the spirit is not trying to be like Christ, and its not about keeping the law and commandments.

Christ is to most certainly be our model, while walking in the Sprit is the way to emulate Him. And the Spirit will moist certainly keep the law and commandments in us, providing we continue to walk in Him.

 

[setst777]

I think you get stuck with the words I use, not seeing what I mean. You don't need to call it "saving faith", you can call it the "saved state". You have faith and call on the Lord and God indwells you with the Spirit/saves you, puts you in the "saved state"/puts you in a right relationship with God.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
— Romans 10:9-10

I am using the words you wrote down. You wrote that we repent and believe after hearing the Gospel, and by believing we receive the Spirit who gives us the Faith to be saved.

Below are quotes from you that you try to show there are two different faiths - one faith by which we receive the Spirit, and another faith we receive by the Spirit so we can be saved

<<<<
zoidar said:
What would you do with my story then? I came to believe that Jesus did die for us and that he was resurrected from the dead. As I got home from work I asked God for forgiveness and I received the Holy Spirit. I then believed in Jesus for my salvation. What would then be the difference of the belief I had prior to salvation and the belief after? How can you describe that without using different words? Both are "believes" yet different, one salvific, one not.

zoidar said:
Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.
However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

zoidar said:
That's kind of what I'm saying there are two kinds of faith/belief. The one that has not yet received the Holy Spirit and the one that has. So to make the distinction clear, I used belief for the first, faith for the other.

zoidar said:
I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.
>>>>

I can only reply to what you are actually saying, because I cannot read your mind and interpret what you, yourself, wrote.

The question I have for you is, if the Spirit indwells you because you have already repented and believed in Lord Jesus, then isn't that already the faith by which God saves you? Why would the Spirit indwell you if you did not already possess a Gospel faith in Lord Jesus by which God saves you???

You see you are not saved only by believing, but by believing and confessing.

That is understood, so it's not an issue. We discussed that before, and we came to an understanding. We never disagreed on whether faith includes repentance, or involves confessing Jesus as our Lord whom we follow. Practically all my messages establish this fact of Scripture. Therefore, the context of any discussion about faith determines what faith is being discussed.

For instance, only twice does the NT state anything about confessing "Jesus is Lord," but the context of the NT clearly teaches that those who truly believe, receive him as Lord of their lives. The same with "repentance" .... Rarely do we find NT Scripture that uses the words "faith" and "repentance" together in the same verse; rather, the NT makes clear that the faith by which God saves us always includes repentance; and so, "faith" and "repentance" are used interchangeably or synonymously.

I think repentance/confessing is to be included in the understanding of faith here. Paul assumes the reader understands if you have faith, you have also repented. Faith alone won't justify you, but repentance/confessing and faith (Romans 10:9-10).

Yes, we do not disagree on that. Not an issue.

Who in their right mind would say they reject Scripture. The question is if you have the right understanding.

Well, you did say that those who repent and believe in Lord Jesus receive the faith to be saved after receiving the Spirit. Yet, the Scriptures I gave plainly teach that we are "children of God by faith;" and that, because we are children, the Spirit indwells us.

We are children of God by faith, before ever receiving the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And because we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba,[a] Father!”

These Passages contradict what you actually stated. So, I asked you: 'Do you believe what these Scriptures actually state, or do you reject them?'

Yes, repentance and faith.

Repentance and faith

Again by repentance and faith

That kind of faith comes by repentance.

The Faith God accepts to be saved always includes repentance. Unless we are talking about a dead faith, it is assumed that faith always includes repentance, and also confessing Jesus is Lord of us. The New Testament rarely includes the words "repentance" and "faith" together in the same verse because it is understood that there is only one faith by which God saves us. And that is the faith we are discussing.

Ephesians 2:4-6 (WEB) 4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, {{{one faith}}}, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all, and in us all.

I will say though, that your messages appear to indicate that there are two faiths - the faith (1) we confess after hearing the Gospel, and the faith (2) given to you by the Spirit. No such Scriptures. There is only ONE Faith by which God saves us.

Maybe there was no indwelling of the Spirit before Pentecost, but still OT believers were regenerated by the Spirit?

How can a person be regenerated by the Spirit without indwelling them???

Salvation only happens when the Spirit indwells the believer, and the Spirit only indwells the believer by faith.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

John 4:13 (WEB) 13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become {{{in him}}} a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The believer is given life in the Spirit when the Spirit indwells him, and you only receive the Spirit by faith.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive."

You gave a link to a commentary; however, commentaries frequently disagree on a number of doctrines. What do the Scriptures teach us? What do the Scriptures I quoted teach us about regeneration of the Spirit?

The fact is that the Spirit was not yet given because the Lord Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The Old Testament, including to the time Lord Jesus was on the earth, the promise of the Spirit had not yet been poured out on believers to guide them and give them life.

John 16:7-8 (WEB) 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I don’t go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

But no one is eternally saved until judgment. We are in a saved state/a living relationship with God. If that's not the same with OT believers, they still were regenerated right? How if not by the Spirit?

Edit: I see now you say they were not regenerated at all. Ezekiel below seems to indicate otherwise.

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
— Ezekiel 36:25-26

Of course OT believers will be eternally saved by the cross, we all agree on that.

The Book of Ezekiel is a prophetic book, and so is discussing a future time. If you disagree, then you cannot use an unclear Passage to explain away the NT Scriptures that fully reveals what the OT only said in part, being a mystery.

What you are trying to do is to use the OT to interpret the mystery of the NT, when the reverse is actually the case. We are to interpret the OT with the NT - the mystery revealed.

1 Peter 1:12 (WEB) 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Colossians 2:1-4 (NIV) 2 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally (in writing). 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Ephesians 3:4-6 (NIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[Chaleb]

Therefore, as Paul continues to teach us, the Christian fulfills the whole law by walking in the Spirit.

Walking in the Spirit is not performed as a self effort.

 

[Chaleb]

God sent HIS Son to redeem fallen sinful man The best place to start is with unbelievers not Goody Two Shoes.

What you said, makes no sense.

 

[Chaleb]

How so? Paul knew that it was sin.

Your mistake is in failing to understand the meaning of grace. I

Here is something for you to figure out.
If you own a bible, go and read all of Paul's Epistles, and notice that in none of them did Paul ever confess a sin, or tell you to confess yours.
When you figure out why, you have now taken a real step toward "The Gospel of the Grace of God".

and "wikipedia' is not going to help you this time., flansen.

 

[Chaleb]

Of course there is, which Paul described in Rom 7-

There is no Sin found "in Christ".

= all the born again are "in Christ".

 

[Chaleb]

The problem is that you fail to understand Pauline theology. Again, the reason that a born again person is not condemned of sin is only because he's now empowered to overcome it, to have accomplished in himself what the law could not.

Read my Threads.
Paul is everywhere in them.
This is why all my Threads talk about the Cross.
And maybe one day, yours will also.
"all things are possible", fhansen.

 

[Chaleb]

Christ is to most certainly be our model, while walking in the Sprit is the way to emulate Him.

People who are not born again, but are very religious, try to emulate Jesus.
They die and go to hell.
Why?
Because Jesus isn't looking for ACTORS.

He's looking for this....

"You must be born again"..

 

[setst777]

Walking in the Spirit is not performed as a self effort.

Read all of Paul's Epistles. If you do not have a Bible, then you can also find Paul's Epistles online at "biblegateway.com."

If you object to the Apostle Paul's teaching, then you have to determine whether you actually believe in God and His Word.

The Apostle Paul makes clear in his Epistles that we are obligated to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit to receive Life from the Spirit. The Spirit will lead us, but we have to be willing to be led, and to live and walk by the Spirit, because many Christians do quench and grieve the Spirit by their disobedience.

Romans 8:12-13 (WEB) 12 So then, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, {{{we}}} have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit {{{you}}} put to death the deeds of the body, {{{you}}} will live.

Therefore, if you object to Paul's teaching, then you have to consider that perhaps you object to Paul being an Apostle of Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who {{{belong to Christ}}} have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 {{{If we}}} live by the Spirit, {{{let us}}} also keep in step with the Spirit.

Therefore, as Paul continues to teach us, the Christian fulfills the whole law by walking in the Spirit.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And so, Paul continues to teach us that the way of the Spirit is a {{{sanctified life}}}. Those Christians who reject this life of sanctification that Paul instructs are rejecting God.

2 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that {{{you}}} abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that {{{each one of you}}} know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned {{{you}}} and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also {{{given his Holy Spirit to you}}}.

And so, Paul admonishes and warns believers to continue walking in the Spirit {{{without giving up}}} so that the indwelling Spirit will give him Eternal Life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, if {{{we}}} do not give up.

Therefore, as Paul teaches us, a Christian can no longer live in sin, but rather, they are now slaves of righteousness, and the result of this sanctified life is Eternal Life.

Romans 6:1-22 (WEB)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

6 Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over him! 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore don’t let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 Also, do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be! 16 Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered. 18 Being made free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your {{{fruit of sanctification}}} and the result of eternal life.

 

[Chaleb]

Read all of Paul's Epistles. If you do not have a Bible, then you can also find Paul's Epistles online at "biblegateway.com."

If you object to the Apostle Paul's teaching, then you have to determine whether you actually believe in God and His Word.

The Apostle Paul makes clear in his Epistles that we are obligated to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit to receive Life from the Spirit.

Its always interesting to me, that when i come to a forum......and start preaching Paul's Doctrine, people like you who never thought about it before, suddenly are the master of it.

Too funny,......again and again., but i am glad that you are thinking in the right direction, now.
This is happening a lot here now, on this forum.

So, here is the one issue you still have, ....setst777

1.) Remember, there is Salvation..........and that Is Jesus Himself.......Its the Cross of Christ........ John 14:6
2.) Then, the believer, born again, is to "present your body a living sacrifice"... which is all that STUIFF you are posting.
That's discipleship, and that is NOT Salvation.
Always remember they are NOT THE SAME.
You are to do all that, but not to try to be saved or to try to stay saved......but only because you are saved.