Justification and Sanctification ?

[setst777]

What about the 10 commandments and what they mean ? What about lust? Or any sinful thought . You actually believe Paul never broke a commandment ?

I don't believe a person is truly being honest with themselves if they think they don't sin. Why would Jesus command people to pray the Lord's Prayer ? Do you skip the part where it says "forgive us our trespasses" ?

Dear BurningBush84,

No need to keep harping on this. Either a person already understands or they won't.

I will reply to you though. When we sanctify (separate) ourselves onto the Lord from serving sin to following Lord Jesus in to a sanctified life of righteousness and love, then we fulfill the whole law (Romans 13:9), and God sanctifies us onto himself and justifies us - accounts to us righteousness. Why would a believer need to be accounted righteousness by God if he were already perfectly righteous in himself (Romans 4:5-22)? If we were to be perfectly righteous, then we should, and will, keep the keep the whole moral law, but no one can, so God accredits righteousness to us by faith.

God "accounts righteousness" to the believer, because it is understood that a believer is not perfectly holy in himself. However, by sanctifying ourselves to God, we are declared righteous before him.

Therefore, by sanctifying ourselves to God does not mean we will never sin again in thought, word, or deed, but that we no longer live for and serve the Old Man of Sin; rather, we live for and serve our rightful Master, Lord Jesus. To sin is never acceptable, but we will sin in weakness.

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB)
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. [all present tense]
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [present tense]
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness [present tense].

The Apostle John does include himself with those he is writing to, in that,

{{{if we (includes the Apostle John) say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.}}}

The Apostle John is teaching the Christians, whom he is writing to in the present tense, what it means to be sanctified before God. God accounts righteousness to those who live by faith evidenced by following His Son. We never live in any sin, but when we sin in weakness, God is merciful to cleans from all unrighteousness those who do sanctify themselves to him by faith.

It cannot, therefore, be true that the Apostle Paul, or even the Apostle John, was perfectly holy and righteous in themselves. If they made such a claim then, according to the Apostle John, they would be deceived, and the truth would not be in them.

The Apostle Paul is the one who wrote that God accredits righteousness to those who live by faith. If the Apostle Paul also wrote the Book of Hebrews, which the Earliest Church Fathers feel he did, then Paul also includes himself with those he wrote to that need a High Priest to intercede for them and to receive grace and mercy offered by the sacrifice of Lord Jesus for our sins.

Hebrews 2:17-18 (WEB) 17 Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Hebrews 4:14-16 (WEB) 14 Having then a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold tightly to our confession. 15 For we don’t have a high priest who can’t be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness to the throne of grace, that {{{we}}} may receive mercy and may find grace for help in time of need.

Hebrews 7:25 (WEB) 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them. 26 Such a high priest truly {{{meets our need}}} — one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

 

[Clare73]

However, the NT presents saving faith as faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e, sin debt (Ro 5:18) paid (Ro 5:9).

Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.

However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

See the above Scriptures. . .

 

[setst777]

Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.

However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

Can a person, after hearing the Gospel, trust in God to save him, and have faith in Christ, before receiving the Spirit?

 

[zoidar]

Can a person, after hearing the Gospel, trust in God to save him

I believe so, yes.

and have faith in Christ, before receiving the Spirit?

Maybe trying to describe this correctly is less of importance. What is important is that we have received the Holy Spirit.

 

[Chaleb]

Repentance without a change of mind is not repentance.

While you were "yet a sinner" Christ died for you.

So, all you bring to the Cross is sin, a lifetime of it, so that Jesus can die for all your sin.

The repentance that God accepts, is to repent of your UNBELIEF to FAITH in Christ.
There is the "true repentance" that God honors as : "faith is counted as righteousness" and you are "justified by faith".without works, law, or commandments, or water baptism.

 

[timothyu]

and you are "justified by faith"

In His will, not our own. Ours is prejudiced towards self.

 

[Chaleb]

In His will, not our own. Ours is prejudiced towards self.

We are Justified by Faith.

"faith comes by hearing". the Gospel.

To believe it and receive Christ as our SAVIOR , is to have the Faith that God accepts to accept us.

"Justification BY : Faith"......"and that not of works" or commandments or law.

 

[Chaleb]

. The problem involves whether there is any consequence for sin. Can no amount or gravity of sin separate us from God again?

Never.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME ETERAL payment for sin". because....>"God hath made Jesus to be sin for us".....

See that word "eternal". ??? "one time ETERNAL payment"?

Now look at this verse...

2 Corinthians 5:19

 

[fhansen]

Never.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME ETERAL payment for sin". because....>"God hath made Jesus to be sin for us".....

See that word "eternal". ??? "one time ETERNAL payment"?

Now look at this verse...

2 Corinthians 5:19

And this answer reflects the sad state of anti-Scriptural, anti-historical, modern, novel theologies.

 

[AbbaLove]

Can a person, after hearing the Gospel, trust in God to save him, and have faith in Christ, before receiving the Spirit?

Proverbs 3:5-8
5 Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don’t lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Don’t be wise in your own eyes. Fear Yahweh, and depart from evil. 8 It will be health to your body, and nourishment to your bones. (WEB)

28 For she said, If I may touch but His clothes, I shall be whole. And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
34 And He said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. (Mark 5)

28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torment me!” 29 For Jesus was commanding the unclean spirit to come out of the man.
35 People went out to see what had happened. They came to Jesus and found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus’ feet, clothed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. (Luke 8)​

Possibly, but you can't have saving faith until you receive the Spirit.

9 When Jesus heard these things, He marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed Him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick. (Luke 7)

41 We are punished justly, for we are receiving what our actions deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when You come into Your Kingdom!" 43 And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23)

23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth.” (John 4)​

 

[Chaleb]

And this answer reflects the sad state of anti-Scriptural, anti-historical, modern, novel theologies.

Born again is : "in Him".

That's not a "theology", that is a Fact of Spiritual Union with God, that is created by God, through the Holy Spirit.

The "new creation in Christ" is how you ABIDE "in Him",.... fhansen.

Water and works wont do that for you. Law and commandments and the sacraments can't get you there.

There is NO OTHER WAY to be "In Jesus" who is IN HEAVEN while you are down here on earth...., then to be born again INTO the Spirit of God by the Holy Spirit, and not by water.

Understand YET?

See it yet?

Put your "church" theology away, and realize that being """" in CHRIST"""" = who is IN HEAVEN, can't be caused or maintained by water, works, commandment keeping or law keeping.


Notice......

The born again are "seated in Heavenly Places IN CHRIST">...........see that? There is your ABIDING, that can never end.

Look again...>The born again are "translated from Darkness ......>TO LIGHT"..

See that Light? Thats the KOG.
"God is A Spirit who exists IN LIGHT"....
That is where the born again ABIDE, by Spiritual Birth.
This is why the Born again are """"" CHILDREN OF THE LIGHT, and Jesus is the LIGHT of the World"....

 

[timothyu]

"faith comes by hearing". the Gospel.

And Jesus' gospel was of the Kingdom/rule of the Father, not the will of man. "Thy will be done in earth", not ours.

 

[fhansen]

That's not a "theology", that is a Fact of Spiritual Union with God, that is created by God, through the Holy Spirit.

Sure it's a theology-and a true one as you stated here. And like any relationship it can be compromised, neglected, left behind, etc

 

[setst777]

I believe so, yes.


Maybe trying to describe this correctly is less of importance. What is important is that we have received the Holy Spirit.

Can you show me where in Scripture it teaches that those who believe in Jesus do not have a saving faith until they receive the Spirit?

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [The rebirth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life]

In the Old Covenant, except for kings, judges, and prophets, and those whom God gifted to do a special work, the {{{New Covenant of the Spirit}}} poured out on believers had not yet occurred in the Old Testament, not until Lord Jesus was glorified, and began at Pentecost. Did the OT saints have saving faith before receiving the Spirit, or did they believe in vain?

Before Lord Jesus was glorified, all those believing in him, including the disciples of Lord Jesus, and the 70 disciples whom Lord Jesus sent out to preach the Gospel and do miracles, and those in the Upper Room who believed in Lord Jesus, had not yet received the indwelling Spirit by faith, because Lord Jesus had not yet been glorified. Are you saying none of them had saving faith?

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him {{{were}}} to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

So, those who believed before the New Covenant in the Spirit, and died before the Spirit was given, did they all believe in vain - all being condemned because they did not have a saving faith, since the Spirit had not yet been poured out?

Do we pass out of death (regeneration of the indwelling Spirit) onto life before having a saving faith in Lord Jesus or after?

God says that all are dead in sin until God makes us alive (regeneration). We pass from Death to Life {{by Faith}} – not before.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word {{{and believes}}} him who sent me {{{has eternal life,}}} and doesn’t come into judgment, but has {{{passed out of DEATH into LIFE}}}.

 

[Chaleb]

Reader...

Let me show you something that can help you, or, keep you from being harmed by people who are not a part of the body of Christ.

Notice these verses, and how they are used in a way by cults to try to ruin your faith in Christ.

Notice......."if we continue to abide in Christ"..

Now a cult teaches it like this......>"If you continue to keep that law, and do those commandments, and be sure to get that water baptism.. and try to be like Christ......if you Do all this, .... then YOU cause yourself to ABIDE in Christ.....but if you stop, for one second, one day, or one week trying to cause yourself to try to ABIDE In Jesus who is IN Heaven, then you just ..... lost your salvation".

Then they run to James and try to prove to you that "dead faith" is dead salvation.

Now, see that nonsense?
That is just total Cross denying nonsense.
And after they tell you that JUNK, they throw this verse at you....... They'll say.....and if you dont do all those WORKS to abide, then Jesus will say.....>"Depart from me, i never knew you" when you die, or in a few minutes...

See it?
Every heard that DUNG before? Its theological SEWAGE pretending to be Truth.

Look......

Jesus said to depart from Him if He """""never knew you".... and the heretics says that is..>"you no longer abide by all that SELF EFFORT and commandments and Law and WATER".

But What did Jesus say?
He said, "i never KNEW You".
See that?
So, its impossible for you to be born again, a Son/Daughter of God, and be "in Christ"...>"seated in heavenly places".......and Jesus not know you.
Even a 5 yr old could understand that, yet people who are water baptized and so called "christians"' for 45 yrs, can't.
Listen....
You can't be a "Heir of God" and "the temple of the Holy Spirit", and Jesus """not KNOW YOU""".
See it?
Heretics never will.

So you remember that the next time someone is trying to put that verse on you, and tells you that "abiding" is you trying to be good and keep law and commandments, when in fact the only way you are 'IN HIM"". '" IN CHRIST"....... is to be born again by the Holy Spirit INTO Spiritual union with God and Christ.

So, if Jesus does not "know you" its because you are not BORN AGAIN. You are this........ John 3:36
Otherwise """Christ in you, the Hope of Glory"""" certainly PROVES that Jesus "Knows you".
See it?
Heretics can't., and that is one of the ways you spot them.... reader.

So, what happens if you lose your faith for a while...., or if your faith is destroyed by a Forum deceiver who has "bewitched you" out of your faith in Christ and has you chasing Law, and commandments, and water, instead ?

Galatians 3:1

Paul says you are "fallen from Grace". This means your faith is broken......and you are deceived.
However, your born again Spirit is eternally '"" IN Christ"""...."one with God"..... still "seated in Heavenly places" for as long as God lives.
You can't stop being born again., but your faith can be totally destroyed, and that is the Devil's plan for you., as if he can ruin your faith, then your discipleship is GONE.

So, if your faith is ruined, then you are this...>"apart from me you can do nothing"......Jesus said.
And to be apart from Him, is based on your faith in Him being ruined by someone, or a cult.

Being Apart from Jesus, is not to lose your salvation, its just proof that your faith is broken.,and you need to get it RIGHT.
When its wrong, you will sin and confess and repeat, and your walk with God will be frustrating and even bitter.
You'll have no Joy, no power over your lust, your prayer life will be ZERO, and your praise and worship will be less then zero.... and the bible will be under LOCK AND KEY and will show you nothing.

Listen,
DECEPTION.... is what has happened when you simple faith in Christ becomes "subverted" into..>"law keeping, and commandment keeping and water baptism, and trying to perform for God so that He would accept you and keep you...
See that BROKEN FAITH?
Its broken, its subverted into SELF Righteousness. Its "in the FLESH"...>"Carnal"....>"apart from me"....Jesus said.

Reader, God only accepted you to begin with based on the Cross of Christ, and God only keeps you the very same way.

John 14:6

Welcome to : Salvation.

ITS A "GIFT"........"The GIFT of Salvation"....who is JESUS.
Jesus is your Salvation.
Jesus is your Eternal Life.
Jesuis is your Resurrection and Truth.
JESUS is the only way and only reason you will go to Heaven.

Dont be the one who is "apart from Jesus""", because you have been deceived out of your FAITH..
And if you are, then go back to your first love,..... back to that Cross when you took Christ into your heart and you KNEW God took you as His own, forever.

Stay here :

Hebrews 13:9

 

[timothyu]

Do we pass out of death onto life before having a saving faith in Lord Jesus or after?

Because of.

 

[AbbaLove]

The problem involves whether there is any consequence for sin [after being born again]. Can no amount or gravity of sin separate us from God again? The early church actually taught that there can be no repentance for serious sin after conversion, such as for murder or adultery. Conversion to the living God involved the turning away from sin and the ways of the world.

The enlarged bold type may be a reference to: Matthew 12:31-32 and Mark 3:28-30. Which way one believes seems to hinge on whether one is a traditional continualist of cessationist. That discussion/debate is for a Controversial Theology thread ... so PLEASE lets not derail this thread by debating "the one unforegiveable sin". We'll just have to agree that a "born again" (Titus 3:5) would never be guilty, but a lukewarm Christian (heaven forbid) may be guilty of the above verses in bold.

So the historic teachings maintain that a believer has embarked on a journey, away from sin and nearer and nearer to God, to the holiness without which he will not see God (Heb 12:14).

The following "Never" reply by Chaleb is in response to above enlarged sentence in previous post by fhansen on p7. In the following posgt by Chaleb is referring to before one's born again (Titus 3:5) conversion; whereas fhansen is referring to after one's born again (Titus 3:5) conversion.

Never.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME ETERAL payment for sin". because....>"God hath made Jesus to be sin for us".....

See that word "eternal". ??? "one time ETERNAL payment"?

Now look at this verse...

2 Corinthians 5:19

2 Corinthians 5:19 is before NOT after one's born again (Titus 3:5) conversion. Paul's sins to both non-Jewish disciples as well as Jewish disciples including his approval of the stoning of Stephen were after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ Jesus. We really don't know for certainty if they were forgiven by GOD. The one thing we do know is that Saul/Paul was called - chosen to witness the Good News to the gentile nations. We have no reason to assume that Paul wasn't justified and glorified if he is now or will be in the Kingdom of GOD.

 

[setst777]

While you were "yet a sinner" Christ died for you.

So, all you bring to the Cross is sin, a lifetime of it, so that Jesus can die for all your sin.

The repentance that God accepts, is to repent of your UNBELIEF to FAITH in Christ.
There is the "true repentance" that God honors as : "faith is counted as righteousness" and you are "justified by faith".without works, law, or commandments, or water baptism.

True, Lord Jesus died for all sinners, and whoever repents toward God, and believes in Lord Jesus, is justified and saved before one work is ever done.

 

[setst777]

Because of.

So, if we pass from death to life because we believe, does faith come before we can pass out of life onto death?

 

[timothyu]

So, if we pass from death to life because we believe, does faith come before we can pass out of life onto death?

I said because of... Jesus (not us)