Jesus on How to Choose a Church

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If Jesus were in the habit of answering requests to know which is the right Church, which he appears not to be, then I hazard the guess that Jesus would express puzzlement that any should ask such a question because he is the head of only one church. That Church is the one that the Lord, Jesus Christ, discussed briefly with saint Peter as recorded in these words:
When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, "What do people say about the Son of Man?" The disciples answered, "Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet." Then Jesus asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter spoke up, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus told him: Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn't discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. So I will call you Peter, which means "a rock." On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don't allow. Jesus told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Matthew 16:13-20

Mr. Gill seems to be confused by the English translation. Simon was renamed Kepha or Cephas (transliterated) which means Rock in Aramaic.
The original would be "Thou art Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my Church." Additionally, Jesus used words paralleling Isaiah 22 in giving Peter, and no other Apostle, the keys to the kingdom. In Isaiah, the king gives the keys to the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority.




I’ve been off the Board for over a week, so I apologize for the delay.

You are completely misunderstanding what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 and the rest of the chapter. There are two Greek words referring to rock, or stone, or pebble, in this verse.

From notes in the Disciples Study Bible, Holman Publishers, 1984

On Matthew 16:17

“Simon Peter was blessed because he made the great confession of v. 16. All who confess Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, are likewise blessed.

On Matthew 16:18-19

<< Many Christians believe that the authority of the church resides in Simon Peter, and authority resides in Simon Peter. Jesus built the church on Simon Peter, and ultimate authority continues in the successors to the apostle. This interpretation depends on the words “Peter” and “rock” being interpreted as one and the same. The two Greek words of different. Both words mean “rock.” “Peter” is the Greek petros, which means “pebble.” “Rock” (petra) refers to a large “foundation stone.” The two words are different and appear to call for a different interpretation. >>


Peter is a pebble. The church is founded on a foundation stone. Some sources translate “petros,” the rock that the church is founded on, as bedrock.


 
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Dale

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Mr. Gill seems to be confused by the English translation. Simon was renamed Kepha or Cephas (transliterated) which means Rock in Aramaic.
The original would be "Thou art Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my Church." Additionally, Jesus used words paralleling Isaiah 22 in giving Peter, and no other Apostle, the keys to the kingdom. In Isaiah, the king gives the keys to the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority.

On John Gill (1697-1771), you obviously do not know who he is. He did not rely on any English translation, he was a master of ancient languages, starting with Greek and Hebrew. In his commentary on some parts of the Bible, he quotes, Arabic, Syrian and Persian versions of the Bible, and these are all ancient translations. He is very well qualified to form an opinion independent of all translations.
 
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Valletta

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On John Gill (1697-1771), you obviously do not know who he is. He did not rely on any English translation, he was a master of ancient languages, starting with Greek and Hebrew. In his commentary on some parts of the Bible, he quotes, Arabic, Syrian and Persian versions of the Bible, and these are all ancient translations. He is very well qualified to form an opinion independent of all translations.
Then he went overboard on that translation.
 
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Valletta

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I’ve been off the Board for over a week, so I apologize for the delay.

You are completely misunderstanding what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 and the rest of the chapter. There are two Greek words referring to rock, or stone, or pebble, in this verse.

From notes in the Disciples Study Bible, Holman Publishers, 1984

On Matthew 16:17

“Simon Peter was blessed because he made the great confession of v. 16. All who confess Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, are likewise blessed.

On Matthew 16:18-19

<< Many Christians believe that the authority of the church resides in Simon Peter, and authority resides in Simon Peter. Jesus built the church on Simon Peter, and ultimate authority continues in the successors to the apostle. This interpretation depends on the words “Peter” and “rock” being interpreted as one and the same. The two Greek words of different. Both words mean “rock.” “Peter” is the Greek petros, which means “pebble.” “Rock” (petra) refers to a large “foundation stone.” The two words are different and appear to call for a different interpretation. >>


Peter is a pebble. The church is founded on a foundation stone. Some sources translate “petros,” the rock that the church is founded on, as bedrock.
You seem to have missed my entire point. I could explain the Greek translation to you but it is really a moot point since we have the original Aramaic name that Jesus gave to Simon--"Kepha." "Kepha" was transliterated into "Cephas." Kepha means "Rock" in Aramaic.
 
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Jamdoc

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You seem to have missed my entire point. I could explain the Greek translation to you but it is really a moot point since we have the original Aramaic name that Jesus gave to Simon--"Kepha." "Kepha" was transliterated into "Cephas." Kepha means "Rock" in Aramaic.
Petros and Petra both mean rock but different kinds of Rock, it's meant to show a difference in the passage, different connotations.
 
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Valletta

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No He wasn't. He was not addressing pagans, He was addressing Israelites who believed He was at least a prophet for the true and living God. These were not people praying to idols (though when people pray at statues of Mary...)
These were people praying to the real God, just incorrectly.
Please don't misrepresent what I say, I didn't say who Jesus was addressing. What I accurately said was "As to your question, what Jesus was referring to, as I mentioned before, was how the pagans prayed with empty words."
 
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Jamdoc

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Please don't misrepresent what I say, I didn't say who Jesus was addressing. What I accurately said was "As to your question, what Jesus was referring to, as I mentioned before, was how the pagans prayed with empty words."
He didn't say vain words He said vain repetitions. Their supplications were valid, but repeating them doesn't make God hear them more.
Look at the wording used in the verse and its context.
These people were making supplication to God to fulfill their needs, Jesus said the gentiles repeat prayers over and over hoping that they'll be heard when they don't get what they ask for the first time. Then Jesus says God already knows what you need before you ask. You still ask, but you don't have to keep asking over and over.
 
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Dale

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The Catholic Church chose what books went into the Bible. Period.

Riley: “The Catholic Church chose what books went into the Bible. Period.”

I don’t see how that means what you think it means. I’ve been told that the Church Council that set the NT canon largely went by what books were being read in local churches. Supposing that a Church Council did choose what books went into the Bible, is the RCC bound by the teachings contained in those books? Are they bound to reject teachings that cannot be found in the Biblical Canon?

In any case “the Catholic Church” has changed beyond recognition since Bishops voted on the New Testament. Both the structure and the doctrine and the practice have changed.
 
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Dale

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If Jesus were in the habit of answering requests to know which is the right Church, which he appears not to be, then I hazard the guess that Jesus would express puzzlement that any should ask such a question because he is the head of only one church. That Church is the one that the Lord, Jesus Christ, discussed briefly with saint Peter as recorded in these words:
When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, "What do people say about the Son of Man?" The disciples answered, "Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet." Then Jesus asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter spoke up, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus told him: Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn't discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. So I will call you Peter, which means "a rock." On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don't allow. Jesus told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Matthew 16:13-20

Xeno: “ If Jesus were in the habit of answering requests to know which is the right Church, which he appears not to be …”

Jesus was in the habit of answering questions from the public. The Parable of the Good Samaritan was an answer to a question that someone asked him, for instance.

Let me call your attention to the following passage.

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in
your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one
of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No-one who does a miracle
in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about
me, for whoever is not against us is for us.
Mark 9:38-40 NIV

Here the first impulse of the disciples is to be restrictive when it comes to anyone they don’t know using the name of Jesus. Jesus takes a different approach, you could say a more open-minded approach.
 
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Valletta

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Riley: “The Catholic Church chose what books went into the Bible. Period.”

I don’t see how that means what you think it means. I’ve been told that the Church Council that set the NT canon largely went by what books were being read in local churches. Supposing that a Church Council did choose what books went into the Bible, is the RCC bound by the teachings contained in those books? Are they bound to reject teachings that cannot be found in the Biblical Canon?

In any case “the Catholic Church” has changed beyond recognition since Bishops voted on the New Testament. Both the structure and the doctrine and the practice have changed.
The process of the Catholic Church choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. Once the books were written a number, such as the Gospels, were well accepted for readings at mass. But there were differences from area to area. The Catholic Church wanted only the Word of God to be used as mass readings. Over time the list of books came closer and closer to the final list, Revelation was the last to be accepted. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) containing the same books in the same order we use today. The list is contained in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter of 367 A.D. This list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D. The mass is very much the same as it was back then, there are slightly different liturgies depending on the particular rite, but the structure is the same. Some things have changed, we often use electric lights instead of candles. But what has been handed down from Jesus through the Apostles always remains Catholic Church teaching.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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is the RCC bound by the teachings contained in those books? Are they bound to reject teachings that cannot be found in the Biblical Canon?
No and yes, the contents of the books is inspired holy scripture and as such is revealed by God for his people. We believe it and obey it. The teaching in the scriptures is discovered by reading and interpreting the contents of holy scripture, this is an endeavour for people, specifically for the bishops of the Catholic Church, and while we respect the bishops and listen attentively to their teaching we do not regard the bishops as inspired and their writing and opinions are ultimately human rather than divine revelation. It is only when the teaching of the bishops is ratified by the Pope and accepted by the Catholic Church as truth that it is promulgated as dogma and the faithful are expected to receive it and obey it.

The things that are revealed by God are not wholly and exclusively contained in holy scripture. This is in fact stated in the scriptures themselves in the words that follow - John 20: 30 There are many other miracles Jesus did in the presence of his disciples, which are not written down in this book;
31 so much has been written down, that you may learn to believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and so believing find life through his name.
 
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Dale

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". . . wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (St. Ignatius) Chapter 8 circa 110 A.D.

Chronological list of popes​


1st millennium​


1st century​


Popes of the 1st century
Pontiff
number
PontificateName: English
· Latin
Date and Place of birthAge at start/
end of papacy
Notes
130–33 / 64–68St Peter
PETRVS
AD 1 Bethsaida, Judaea, Roman Empire[birth 1]29–32 / 62–67Born as Shimon Bar Yonah, a Jewish from Judaea. A peregrinus, free provincial subject of the Roman Empire who was not a Roman citizen. First pope. Apostle of Jesus. According to Catholic tradition he received the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 16:18–19). Feast day (Feast of Saints Peter and Paul) 29 June. The Catholic Church recognizes him as the first Bishop of Rome appointed by Christ. Also revered as saint in Eastern Christianity, with a feast day of 29 June.[4] St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City is named after him.
264–68 / 76–79St Linus
LINVS
10 AD Volterrae, Italia, Roman Empire[birth 2]54–58 / 66–69First Roman pope, being a Roman citizen born in Italia, the homeland of the ancient Romans[birth 3] .[5] Feast day 23 September. Also revered as a saint in Eastern Christianity, with a feast day of 7 June. Possibly mentioned in the New Testament (Second Epistle to Timothy 4:21).[6]
376–79 / 88–91St Anacletus
(Cletus)
ANACLETVS (CLETVS)
25 AD Athenae, Achaea, Roman Empire[birth 4]51–54 / 63–66First Greek pope. A peregrinus, free provincial subject of the Roman Empire who was not a Roman citizen. Feast day 26 April. Once erroneously split into Cletus and Anacletus.[7]
426 April 88 –
23 November 99
(11 years, 211 days)
St Clement I
CLEMENS
c. 35 AD Roma, Italia, Roman Empire[birth 5]53 / 64 (†66)Roman citizen, born in the capital of the Roman Empire. Feast day 23 November. The earliest Apostolic Father, issued 1 Clement which is said to be the basis of apostolic authority for the clergy. Also revered as a saint in Eastern Christianity, with a feast day of 25 November. Possibly mentioned in the New Testament (Epistle to the Philippians 4:3).[8] He was martyred by being tied to an anchor and being thrown in the sea.
523 November 99 –
27 October 105
(5 years, 338 days)
St Evaristus
EVARISTVS
c. 30 AD Bethlehem, Iudaea, Roman Empire[birth 6]69 / 75Hellenized Jew. A peregrinus, free provincial subject of the Roman Empire who was not a Roman citizen. Said to have divided Rome into parishes, assigning a priest to each. Feast day of 26 October.

2nd century​


Popes of the 2nd century
Pontiff
number
PontificateName: English
· Latin
Date and Place of birthAge at start/
end of papacy
Notes
627 October 105 –
3 May 115
(9 years, 188 days)
St Alexander I
ALEXANDER
c. 75 AD Roma, Italia, Roman Empire[birth 5]30 / 40Roman citizen, born in the capital of the Roman Empire. Inaugurated the custom of blessing houses with holy water. Also revered as a saint in Eastern Christianity, with a feast day of 18 March.
73 May 115 –
3 April 125
(9 years, 335 days)
St Sixtus I
SYXTVS
42 AD Roma, Italia, Roman Empire[birth 5]73 / 83A Roman of Greek descent, born in Italia, the homeland of the ancient Romans. Uncertain if it was a peregrinus (a free subject of the Roman Empire) or a Roman citizen. Feast day of 6 April. Also revered as a saint in Eastern Christianity, with a feast day of 10 August.
83 April 125 –
5 January 136
(10 years, 277 days)
St Telesphorus
TELESPHORVS
c. 67 AD Terra Nova, Italia, Roman Empire58 / 69A Roman of Greek descent, born in Italia, the homeland of the ancient Romans. Uncertain if it was a peregrinus (a free subject of the Roman Empire) or a Roman citizen. Feast day of 5 January. Also revered as a saint in Eastern Christianity, with a feast day of 22 February. Church Father St. Irenaeus called him a great martyr; the earliest attested martyrdom of pope after St. Peter.
95 January 136 –
11 January 140
(4 years, 6 days)
St Hyginus
HYGINVS
c. 74 AD Athens, Achaea, Roman Empire[birth 4]58 / 62Greek. A peregrinus, free provincial subject of the Roman Empire who was not a Roman citizen. Tradition holds he was martyred; feast day 11 January.
1011 January 140 –
11 July 155
(15 years, 181 days)
St Pius I
PIVS
c. 81 AD Aquileia, Italia, Roman Empire[birth 7]59 / 74Roman citizen, born in Italia, the homeland of the ancient Romans. Was brother of Hermas. Martyred by sword; feast day 11 July. Decreed that Easter should only be celebrated on a Sunday.
1111 July 155 –
20 April 166
(10 years, 283 days)
St Anicetus
ANICETVS
c. 92 AD Emesa, Syria, Roman Empire[birth 8]63 / 74Hellenized Syrian; first Syrian pope. A peregrinus, free provincial subject of the Roman Empire who was not a Roman citizen. Tradition holds he was martyred; feast day 17 April. Decreed that priests are not allowed to have long hair.

Your list of popes says that Peter was Pope during two separate periods, 30-33 AD and 64-68 AD. I have never seen a list of popes that says anything of the sort. So there was no Bishop of Rome, no Pope and no Papacy from 34 to 63 AD? That’s interesting.

The sources I’ve seen say that Peter was martyred in 64 or 65 AD, so he couldn’t have been Bishop of Rome or Pope past that date.

The notion that the next Bishop of Rome would inherit Peter’s spiritual authority makes no sense to me. Spiritual authority is attained, or conferred by God, not inherited from another person.

Here is the list of the first three Popes according to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia.

The List of Popes

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)

Source:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: List of Popes
 
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Dale

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“Thou are Rock (Peter), and upon this Rock I will build my Church." Matthew 16:18
That means you just need to find the Church that was built upon Peter. Remember too that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries. No Catholic Church--no Bible. Also realize that the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church--not the other way around.

If Jesus were in the habit of answering requests to know which is the right Church, which he appears not to be, then I hazard the guess that Jesus would express puzzlement that any should ask such a question because he is the head of only one church. That Church is the one that the Lord, Jesus Christ, discussed briefly with saint Peter as recorded in these words:
When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, "What do people say about the Son of Man?" The disciples answered, "Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet." Then Jesus asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter spoke up, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus told him: Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn't discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. So I will call you Peter, which means "a rock." On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don't allow. Jesus told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Matthew 16:13-20

The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter is not only an Apostle but the Chief Apostle. The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia calls Peter the “Prince of the Apostles.” The New Testament calls Peter no such thing.

Jesus rebukes Peter in Matthew 16:22-23, just after Peter’s confession. Peter is certainly not infallible.

Paul gives “James, Peter and John” as “pillars” of the church, but Peter is given no special position among the three. (Galatians 2:9)

As we read the Book of Acts, the phrase “Peter and John” appears over and over. Peter and John said this, Peter and John said that, Peter and John did this, Peter and John did that. I don’t see Peter as the dictator of the church here, I see partnership.

In Acts 15, the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem consider the conditions under which Gentiles, non-Jews, will be allowed to become Christians. I have seen Catholics summarize this passage. They say that Peter was the absolute lord of the church and everyone else was there only to advise Peter. They say that Peter made the decision to invite Gentiles into the church. Peter does speak, but he is not the sole decision-maker. It is actually James who summarizes the consensus. They send out a letter from “The apostles and elders, your brothers …” The authoritative letter isn’t sent by Peter, and in fact, no single person is named as the authority. It is a collective effort.

The letter sent out by the Church at Jerusalem doesn’t say, “I, Peter, decree …” or “I, Peter, have decided …” There is no single ruler or leader of the Christian Church, or of the Church at Jerusalem.

The New Testament doesn’t support the claim that Peter was either the organizational head of the church or the judge of doctrinal disputes.


Scripture referred to:
James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. --Galatians 2:9 NIV
 
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Dale

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“Thou are Rock (Peter), and upon this Rock I will build my Church." Matthew 16:18
That means you just need to find the Church that was built upon Peter. Remember too that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries. No Catholic Church--no Bible. Also realize that the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church--not the other way around.

If Jesus were in the habit of answering requests to know which is the right Church, which he appears not to be, then I hazard the guess that Jesus would express puzzlement that any should ask such a question because he is the head of only one church. That Church is the one that the Lord, Jesus Christ, discussed briefly with saint Peter as recorded in these words:
When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, "What do people say about the Son of Man?" The disciples answered, "Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet." Then Jesus asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter spoke up, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus told him: Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn't discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. So I will call you Peter, which means "a rock." On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don't allow. Jesus told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Matthew 16:13-20

Valletta and Xeno:

None of your comments about the position of Peter would matter unless Peter lived in Rome, and so could have been Bishop of Rome. The Book of Romans gives us two problems with this scenario. If Peter was Bishop of Rome, or even in Rome, why did Paul write Romans at all? Yet Romans is the longest epistle Paul ever wrote. The other problem is that Romans 16, the last chapter of Romans, gives a lengthy list of personal greetings. Peter isn’t mentioned, in the greetings section, or anywhere else.

Scholars say that Paul wrote Romans in 59 AD. If so, Peter should have been in Rome according to Roman Catholic reckoning. Paul knows nothing about Peter being in Rome, or living in Rome.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Peter is certainly not infallible.
Writings, books, specifically scripture is infallible and so are the canons of councils ratified by the pope and so are dogmatic definitions promulgated by a pope, but a pope as a human being is not infallible.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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None of your comments about the position of Peter would matter unless Peter lived in Rome, and so could have been Bishop of Rome.
Being pope isn't defined by living in Rome; Peter was pope because Jesus called him Peter (a rock) and built his church upon that rock.
 
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Dale

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I strongly suggest you study the early Church and what it taught. Read the Church Fathers.

Riley, I notice that you “strongly suggest” that I read the Early Church Fathers. I have.

In post #81, I quoted the notes in the Disciples Study Bible. On the significance of Peter’s confession, these notes say, “All who confess Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, are likewise blessed.” The same notes explain the two Greek words for pebble and stone, or bedrock, in Matthew 16.

Let’s compare that to what Origen says. The following quotes are from Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII)

Quote:

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God, not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, You are Peter, etc. Matthew 16:18 For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, I Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.”

-[Section] 10. The Answer of Peter


“And if any one says this to Him, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto Him but through the Father in heaven, he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches, to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname of rock who are the imitators of Christ.”

-[Section]11. The Promise Given to Peter Not Restricted to Him, But Applicable to All Disciples Like Him.


End Quote

I highlighted the title of Section 11 because of the point it makes. The blessing given to Peter is not a blessing given to one special person, but an example of the blessing given to all believers.

The works of Origin used here were downloaded from the New Advent Catholic site.
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Preface (Origen)
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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On the significance of Peter’s confession, these notes say, “All who confess Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, are likewise blessed.” The same notes explain the two Greek words for pebble and stone, or bedrock, in Matthew 16.
Except Jesus spoke in Aramaic where just one word for rock was used "kepha" hence his name is Cephas, which is translated as Petros in Greek (masculine singular noun) which gives us the English name Peter. The notes in that bible are inaccurate.

Greek: Kago.
And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (Joh 1:42) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore here promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors and princes. (Tirinus)

--- In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus Christ spoke, there is no difference of genders, as there is in Latin, between patra, a rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the allusion was both more natural and more simple. (Bible de Vence)

--Thou art Peter;[2] and upon this (i.e. upon thee, according to the literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I will build my church. It is true St. Augustine, in one or two places, thus expounds these words, and upon this rock, (i.e. upon myself: ) or upon this rock, which Peter hath confessed: yet he owns that he had also given the other interpretation, by which Peter himself was the rock. Some Fathers have also expounded it, upon this faith, which Peter confessed; but then they take not faith, as separated from the person of Peter, but on Peter, as holding the true faith. No one questions but that Christ himself is the great foundation-stone, the chief corner-stone, as St. Paul tells the Ephesians; Chap. ii, ver. 20.) but it is also certain, that all the apostles may be called foundation-stones of the Church, as represented Rev 21:14 In the mean time, St. Peter (called therefore Cephas, a rock) was the first and chief foundation-stone among the apostles, on whom Christ promised to build his Church. (Witham)

--- Thou art Peter, &c. As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ, so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz. that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, (Joh 1:42) should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief foundation-stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

--- Upon this rock, &c. The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews, which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built; Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ by building his house, that is, his Church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder. (Mat 7:24-25.)

--- The gates of hell, &c. That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as the Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, the gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or Church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the Church of Christ. (Challoner)

--- The gates, in the Oriental style, signify the powers; thus, to this day, we designate the Ottoman or Turkish empire by the Ottoman port. The princes were wont to hold their courts at the gates of the city. (Bible de Vence)​

[BIBLIOGRAPHY]
St. Augustine, serm. 13, de Verbis Domini, in the new edit. serm. 76. t. v. p. 415, expounds these words super hanc Petram, i.e. super hanc Petram, quam confessus es, super meipsum. See also tract. 24. in Joan, t. iii. p. 822. But he elsewhere gave the common interpretation, as he says, lib. i. Retrac. and in Psal. lxix. Petrus, qui paulo ante Christum confessus erat filium Dei, & in illa Confessione appellatus erat Petra, super quam fabrificatur Ecclesia, &c. See St. Jerome on this place, lib. iii. p. 97. ædificabo (inquit Christus) super te Ecclesiam meam. (St. John Chrysostom hom. lv. in Matt. &c.)​
 
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FireDragon76

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Yeah there's no before, as Jesus pointed out, God already knows their supplication before they ask it, so repeatedly asking Him again and again is fruitless, that's in vain.

By that logic, we shouldn't pray at all.
 
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