Jesus on How to Choose a Church

[Jamdoc]

Incorrect. Jesus did say not to show off, but Jesus Himself wore a prayer shawl on occasion.

Vain repetitions verse.. again.
Do you think these disciples of Jesus, these Jewish disciples of Jesus were praying to pagan gods trying to summon demons? No. They were doing repetitive Jewish prayer to the true and living God. Jesus said stop it, the heathen do these mantra like prayers, you're not like the heathen, that's what half the laws of Moses are about, just doing things differently than the heathen, don't incorporate heathen practices and try to make them practices of the true religion. You know
like don't take a festival where people dress up like evil spirits and go door to door asking for offerings to ward away the evil spirits on October 31st. Don't take that festival and try to make it Christian.
Oh wait, too late.

Because what happens is, the world takes your Christianized festival, discards it, and instead adopts the pagan festival you tried to tack Jesus onto.
and thus the RCC spread the Celtic Samhain all over the world.
Trying to tie Christ on as an ornament onto a Pagan practice is never good, God always discouraged it.

 

[Valletta]

Vain repetitions verse.. again.
Do you think these disciples of Jesus, these Jewish disciples of Jesus were praying to pagan gods trying to summon demons? No. They were doing repetitive Jewish prayer to the true and living God. Jesus said stop it, the heathen do these mantra like prayers, you're not like the heathen, that's what half the laws of Moses are about, just doing things differently than the heathen, don't incorporate heathen practices and try to make them practices of the true religion. You know
like don't take a festival where people dress up like evil spirits and go door to door asking for offerings to ward away the evil spirits on October 31st. Don't take that festival and try to make it Christian.
Oh wait, too late.

Because what happens is, the world takes your Christianized festival, discards it, and instead adopts the pagan festival you tried to tack Jesus onto.
and thus the RCC spread the Celtic Samhain all over the world.
Trying to tie Christ on as an ornament onto a Pagan practice is never good, God always discouraged it.

If it's not good then you shouldn't do it. Again you're confusing repetitive prayer with vain repetitive prayer. The Bible warns about adding to or subtracting to the Word of God. God's ways are far above your ways. If you are referring to a specific part of the Bible please quote the passage.

 

[Jamdoc]

If it's not good then you shouldn't do it. Again you're confusing repetitive prayer with vain repetitive prayer. The Bible warns about adding to or subtracting to the Word of God. God's ways are far above your ways. If you are referring to a specific part of the Bible please quote the passage.

Okay you want me to dig through Exodus, through Deuteronomy? It'll take awhile. But a good chunk of the laws given in Leviticus were religious practices that the heathen did that the Lord forbid to set Israel apart from them, like squaring off beards, making cuttings in their flesh for the dead, etc. God doesn't want His people to do these things even in His name.in the attempt to worship Him. Remember the sons of Aaron attempting to worship God with strange fire.

But again, Matthew 6:7, the vain repetitions verse was directed at Jewish disciples, not gentiles. Jesus was not talking about Gentiles praying to false Gods but it's okay to make repetitive prayer to the real God. Jesus was telling disciples of His, who prayed to the real God, not to do repetitive prayer because it's something that the gentiles do.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

He's not talking to gentiles, he's talking to disciples, those who believe He is a prophet at the very least of the true God.
He's saying their practices are LIKE the gentiles
The thing is, ALL repetitive prayer is in vain. Don't you see what Jesus said? Your Father knows what you need before you even ask, so there's no point (aka it's vain) to keep repeating. He not only heard you the first time, but even knew what you were going to ask before you asked it. That is why He gives the structure to pray like the following.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Short and simple and not repeating.
Prayer is not a magic spell.
Prayer is a conversation. You don't want repetition in conversation.

and note He did not pray to Mary. He prayed directly to the Father, and called Him OUR Father. Okay? You don't need Mary to be an intermediary in fact she is NOT an intermediary, not when Jesus told you to pray directly to the Father.

 

[Valletta]

Okay you want me to dig through Exodus, through Deuteronomy? It'll take awhile. But a good chunk of the laws given in Leviticus were religious practices that the heathen did that the Lord forbid to set Israel apart from them, like squaring off beards, making cuttings in their flesh for the dead, etc. God doesn't want His people to do these things even in His name.in the attempt to worship Him. Remember the sons of Aaron attempting to worship God with strange fire.

But again, Matthew 6:7, the vain repetitions verse was directed at Jewish disciples, not gentiles. Jesus was not talking about Gentiles praying to false Gods but it's okay to make repetitive prayer to the real God. Jesus was telling disciples of His, who prayed to the real God, not to do repetitive prayer because it's something that the gentiles do.

He's not talking to gentiles, he's talking to disciples, those who believe He is a prophet at the very least of the true God.
He's saying their practices are LIKE the gentiles
The thing is, ALL repetitive prayer is in vain. Don't you see what Jesus said? Your Father knows what you need before you even ask, so there's no point (aka it's vain) to keep repeating. He not only heard you the first time, but even knew what you were going to ask before you asked it. That is why He gives the structure to pray like the following.

Short and simple and not repeating.
Prayer is not a magic spell.
Prayer is a conversation. You don't want repetition in conversation.

Please don't change the Word of God. "Many words" or "vain repetition" does NOT mean "not to do repetitive prayer." That's a misrepresentation, changing the Word of God in order to try and justify your personal ideas and bias. Psalm 136 repeats the same phrase TWENTY-SIX TIMES. Try praying the Psalms as Catholic do. Jesus went on to teach us a specific prayer, the "Our Father." That is not a "conversation," it is specific words given to us by Jesus.

 

[Jamdoc]

I think I'll also point out Exodus 32.
The golden calf Aaron made.
You see, Aaron was trying to make an image of the God who brought them out of Egypt. The goal was not to worship false Gods but the real one, using an idol as a focalpoint or image. But that's not what God wants in fact God forbid it specifically. Idolatry is Idolatry, even if it's an image of Jesus, or Mary, or a saint, even if the image is to represent the true God, it blasphemes Him because the image is not Him.
So even the good intentions, to worship God, are evil, when it's done in the way that pagans do.

Leviticus 10

1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

See they were trying to honor God. But they did so in a pagan way. It does not honor God, it blasphemes Him.
continuing a bit further

8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

To be different than what the Pagans do in worship, which Pagans got drunk as a means to be closer to their gods.

Next I'll go back to Genesis after Noah
Genesis 9

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

So all animals are permissible to eat after the flood, the Kosher dietary laws are not meant for gentiles, unless they were sojourning in Israel to be a part of the congregation (to set themselves apart from gentiles abroad)
Leviticus 11 gives a whole list of unclean animals
BUT

7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

These animals are not considered unclean to everyone, but to Israel specifically to set them apart from the gentiles.
After the new testament, when spreading the gospel to the gentiles, those dietary laws are NOT carried over, because they were never meant for gentiles. They were meant to create a separation, a separation that was no longer necessary as God's plan was to bring the gentiles into salvation. Same thing with circumcision, it's not commanded of gentiles because the point of circumcision was to separate Israel from the Gentiles.

Leviticus 18

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.

"don't do what the heathen do" and I'd argue, even if it's to worship the true God in such a manner.

Leviticus 19

27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

what was this about? well

Leviticus 19:27 Commentaries: 'You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.

It's about things that certain Arab tribes did for their religions. God didn't want them to be like the Arabs.

anyway I don't want to go all the way through the 5 books of Moses to pick out every example but I think the case is made to not imitate the heathen even if to try to honor God.
Buddhists use prayer counting beads, Jesus said don't do vain repetitions, I'd throw those beads away the same as I'd throw away an ouija board.

 

[Jamdoc]

Please don't change the Word of God. "Many words" or "vain repetition" does NOT mean "not to do repetitive prayer." That's a misrepresentation, changing the Word of God in order to try and justify your personal ideas and bias. Psalm 136 repeats the same phrase TWENTY-SIX TIMES. Try praying the Psalms as Catholic do. Jesus went on to teach us a specific prayer, the "Our Father." That is not a "conversation," it is specific words given to us by Jesus.

Jesus said "After this manner" He didn't mean rote memorization and repeating word for word. He gave an example. Pray like this.

and I'm not changing the word of God I'm using the context of what Jesus said to get His meaning. His meaning was the repetition is vain because God already knows what you need, and repeating it more doesn't make you more heard/received.
These disciples were not praying to moloch or anything like that they were intending to pray to the true and living God.
what do you think qualifies as "vain repetitions" in prayers to the true and living God that Jesus would tell them not to do?

 

[timothyu]

When it comes to prayer, really all that is necessary is to say "Thy will be done" as God already knows what is in our hearts.

 

[Jamdoc]

When it comes to prayer, really all that is necessary is to say "Thy will be done" as God already knows what is in our hearts.

most the time I just bless Him and ask Him to return and establish His kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

most the time I just bless Him and ask Him to return and establish His kingdom.

Yes the Lord's prayer about sums it up.

 

[Valletta]

Jesus said "After this manner" He didn't mean rote memorization and repeating word for word. He gave an example. Pray like this.

and I'm not changing the word of God I'm using the context of what Jesus said to get His meaning. His meaning was the repetition is vain because God already knows what you need, and repeating it more doesn't make you more heard/received.
These disciples were not praying to moloch or anything like that they were intending to pray to the true and living God.
what do you think qualifies as "vain repetitions" in prayers to the true and living God that Jesus would tell them not to do?

That's not in the Bible. Jesus gave us the Our Father and never told us to only say it once. God also gave us the Psalms, we are not to just pray the Psalms only once, that was never the practice.

Mark 14:39 And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. RSVCE

Revelation 4: 6-8
and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And round the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures,[a] full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle. 8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing,

“Holy, holy, holy,[b] is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!” RSVCE

​

​

 

[Jamdoc]

That's not in the Bible. Jesus gave us the Our Father and never told us to only say it once. God also gave us the Psalms, we are not to just pray the Psalms only once, that was never the practice.

Mark 14:39 And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. RSVCE

Revelation 4: 6-8
and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And round the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures,[a] full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle. 8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing,

“Holy, holy, holy,[b] is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!” RSVCE

​

​

Yeah all those human beings with six wings full of eyes...

you also didn't answer the question.
Jesus was admonishing people who were praying to the correct God, and telling them not to use vain repetitions, and gave the rationales that the gentiles use repetition thinking it makes God hear them, and Jesus said that God knew what they needed even before they asked.
Jesus didn't tell them to stop praying to false gods, they already weren't doing that.
What's a vain repetition then in this context?

 

[Valletta]

Yeah all those human beings with six wings full of eyes...

you also didn't answer the question.
Jesus was admonishing people who were praying to the correct God, and telling them not to use vain repetitions, and gave the rationales that the gentiles use repetition thinking it makes God hear them, and Jesus said that God knew what they needed even before they asked.
Jesus didn't tell them to stop praying to false gods, they already weren't doing that.
What's a vain repetition then in this context?

We are not to say the Old Father just once or the Psalms just once. I mentioned Psalm 136 before, there are 26 lines that end in "God's love endures forever!" So if you have prayed that Psalm you are guilty of having repeated the same prayer 26 times. Now Jesus prayed the Psalms, so He undoubtedly repeated that prayer 26 times each time He repeated that particular Psalm. Jesus did nothing wrong, Jesus knew the difference between repetition and vain repetition. God is an excellent communicator, don't assume he made a mistake by accidentally adding the word "vain" when what He really meant was simply "repetition." As to your question, what Jesus was referring to, as I mentioned before, was how the pagans prayed with empty words. The Catholic Rosary is just the opposite, as we pray we focus on mysteries, the example I gave was the passion of Jesus in the garden. Sometimes it is beneficial to imagine yourself there, seeing Jesus appear to sweat blood and think about how He was willing to take on the cross even for just one of us because of how much he loves us. As I've said, praying the Rosary is very praying the Bible, just like the Catholic practice of praying the Psalms. Perhaps if you had taken up that practice you would be more familiar with the Psalms and not have misunderstood vain repetition as being the same as repetition.

 

[timothyu]

Could vain repetition be compared to ceremony or more specifically, ritual?

 

[Jamdoc]

We are not to say the Old Father just once or the Psalms just once. I mentioned Psalm 136 before, there are 26 lines that end in "God's love endures forever!" So if you have prayed that Psalm you are guilty of having repeated the same prayer 26 times. Now Jesus prayed the Psalms, so He undoubtedly repeated that prayer 26 times each time He repeated that particular Psalm. Jesus did nothing wrong, Jesus knew the difference between repetition and vain repetition. God is an excellent communicator, don't assume he made a mistake by accidentally adding the word "vain" when what He really meant was simply "repetition." As to your question, what Jesus was referring to, as I mentioned before, was how the pagans prayed with empty words. The Catholic Rosary is just the opposite, as we pray we focus on mysteries, the example I gave was the passion of Jesus in the garden. Sometimes it is beneficial to imagine yourself there, seeing Jesus appear to sweat blood and think about how He was willing to take on the cross even for just one of us because of how much he loves us. As I've said, praying the Rosary is very praying the Bible, just like the Catholic practice of praying the Psalms. Perhaps if you had taken up that practice you would be more familiar with the Psalms and not have misunderstood vain repetition as being the same as repetition.

No He wasn't. He was not addressing pagans, He was addressing Israelites who believed He was at least a prophet for the true and living God. These were not people praying to idols (though when people pray at statues of Mary...)
These were people praying to the real God, just incorrectly.

 

[FireDragon76]

Okay you want me to dig through Exodus, through Deuteronomy? It'll take awhile. But a good chunk of the laws given in Leviticus were religious practices that the heathen did that the Lord forbid to set Israel apart from them, like squaring off beards, making cuttings in their flesh for the dead, etc. God doesn't want His people to do these things even in His name.in the attempt to worship Him. Remember the sons of Aaron attempting to worship God with strange fire.

But again, Matthew 6:7, the vain repetitions verse was directed at Jewish disciples, not gentiles. Jesus was not talking about Gentiles praying to false Gods but it's okay to make repetitive prayer to the real God. Jesus was telling disciples of His, who prayed to the real God, not to do repetitive prayer because it's something that the gentiles do.

He's not talking to gentiles, he's talking to disciples, those who believe He is a prophet at the very least of the true God.
He's saying their practices are LIKE the gentiles
The thing is, ALL repetitive prayer is in vain. Don't you see what Jesus said? Your Father knows what you need before you even ask, so there's no point (aka it's vain) to keep repeating. He not only heard you the first time, but even knew what you were going to ask before you asked it. That is why He gives the structure to pray like the following.

Short and simple and not repeating.
Prayer is not a magic spell.
Prayer is a conversation. You don't want repetition in conversation.

and note He did not pray to Mary. He prayed directly to the Father, and called Him OUR Father. Okay? You don't need Mary to be an intermediary in fact she is NOT an intermediary, not when Jesus told you to pray directly to the Father.

Who says "true" prayer is conversation? That seems to me an assumption on your part.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is only one way to "choose a church", and that is to find the Church that Jesus started. Any other church is not the one that Christ founded. Look for one that goes back to the time of Christ's apostles on the day of Pentecost and after. Look for one that holds true to the teaching of Christ and his apostles.

 

[Jamdoc]

Who says "true" prayer is conversation? That seems to me an assumption on your part.

Look at the structure of the prayer. It is addressed at someone in 2nd person, it's to a "you" and "your". You are speaking to them. That's conversation. Things like hymns are often done in 3rd person, and thus are not conversational, they're about God rather than speech directed to Him.

 

[FireDragon76]

Look at the structure of the prayer. It is addressed at someone in 2nd person, it's to a "you" and "your". You are speaking to them. That's conversation. Things like hymns are often done in 3rd person, and thus are not conversational, they're about God rather than speech directed to Him.

That's a false analogy. God isn't a person among other persons, in the same sense you or I are persons. God has no parts, has no experience of time, etc. That's just basic classical theism. So what exactly is wrong with prayers addressed to God that God has heard before? There is no "before" for God.

As one Christian pointed out a long time ago, prayer isn't about changing God, but about changing us.

 

[Halbhh]

Catholics have told me that the Roman Catholic Church must be the correct one because it is the oldest.

Catholics have also told me that the largest church must be the correct one, so the Roman Catholic Church must the true church on that score. We are sometimes reminded that there are over a billion Roman Catholics. Of course, the number of Roman Catholics is inflated because they count everyone who was baptized as an infant. Some of the people baptized into the RCC as an infant have rarely, if ever, been in a church since then.

If there any reason to believe that the church with the largest membership is the true church, or even the best one? Jesus may have endorsed the opposite position when He said, “… broad is the road that leads to destruction.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

Again, we are told that people know which church is the right one because they know who founded it or was its first leader.

The Bible doesn’t endorse any of these ideas. In the event of conflict between two churches, nothing in Scripture says that the oldest church is the best one, or that the largest church is the best one, or that we can know the value of a church by who founded it, or who led it in the distant past.

You might wonder if the New Testament tells us anything useful about how to choose between churches. In New Testament times, Christians were lucky to have one church in a town. They didn’t generally have a choice between two or more churches.

Jesus actually did tell us how to choose between religious teachers or religious movements.

He said, “By their fruit you will recognize them.”

[Jesus says,]
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
By their fruit you will recognise them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Thus, by their fruit you will recognise them.
Matthew 7:14-20 NIV

The point is buttressed a few chapters later.

“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognised by its fruit.
Matthew 12:33 NIV

There is a parallel passage in Luke.

“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
Each tree is recognised by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thorn-bushes, or grapes from briers.
Luke 6:43-44 NIV

When Jesus says that Christians will know churches, religious movements and teachers by their fruit, He means that we will know them by what they do. Are their actions in harmony with the Gospel preached by Jesus? That is the test.

Useful post. Also, we can add that Christ did tell us in another wording how we can see (even without knowing the whole list of good fruits which we can learn (Galatians 5)) whether or not people are his disciples in an easy to understand way, very useful to know by heart, and a great aid to teach new believers how to find a good church, as it has an extra word that is quite telling and helpful: John 13:34-35

 

[Jamdoc]

That's a false analogy. God isn't a person among other persons, in the same sense you or I are persons. God has no parts, has no experience of time, etc. That's just basic classical theism. So what exactly is wrong with prayers addressed to God that God has heard before? There is no "before" for God.

As one Christian pointed out a long time ago, prayer isn't about changing God, but about changing us.

Yeah there's no before, as Jesus pointed out, God already knows their supplication before they ask it, so repeatedly asking Him again and again is fruitless, that's in vain.