Jesus on How to Choose a Church

[FireDragon76]

I'm not debating that Jesus asked Peter to feed the flock, what I'm debating is Jesus building the church on Peter, not Jesus being the Messiah. The Church is built on Jesus, the cornerstone, and Him being the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. not a fallible man.

The primacy of Peter is the thing debated as even Paul, the least of apostles rebuked Peter.

Paul rebuking Peter says nothing about Peter's office.

 

[Jamdoc]

Paul rebuking Peter says nothing about Peter's office.

It says that Peter shouldn't be treated as the final say in Christianity, nor should the church be considered founded on Him, but Christ.

 

[timothyu]

That's quite a conspiracy theory.

Modern day equivalent of saying "oh Yeah?"

 

[Valletta]

It says that Peter shouldn't be treated as the final say in Christianity, nor should the church be considered founded on Him, but Christ.

God's ways are far above our ways. God often chose flawed men.

 

[Valletta]

Valletta: “Thou are Rock (Peter), and upon this Rock I will build my Church."

You are changing the subject. Rather than deal with the verse I quoted, you remind us that to the RCC, the New Testament says, “See Pope for instructions on what to do.”

The claim that Jesus made Peter the first Pope in Matthew 16 does not hold up. I could easily make several replies. Try this for a starter.

Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him.
“Teacher,” they said, “we want you to do for us whatever we
ask.”
“What do you want me to do for you?” he asked.
They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at
your left in your glory.”
“You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you
drink the cup I drink or be baptised with the baptism I am
baptised with?”
“We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink
the cup I drink and be baptised with the baptism I am
baptised with,
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These
places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”
Mark 10:35-40 NIV


James and John ask for a special place in the coming Kingdom, not their best moment. Roman Catholics claim that Peter is the Chief Apostle. The Catholic Encyclopedia calls Peter the Prince of the Apostles. If Jesus had already made Peter the Prince of the Apostles, the conversation between, Jesus, James and John in Mark 10 would be impossible. It would be nonsense. They could hardly ask for the two top positions if the top position was already taken. Roman Catholics have simply misunderstood Peter’s confession in Matthew 16, and its consequences.

When did the conversation in Mark 10 happen? In Matthew, Peter’s confession is in Matthew 16, and the Transfiguration is in Matthew 17, shortly afterwards. In Mark, the Transfiguration takes place in Mark 9 and James and John make their unreasonable demand in the next chapter, Mark 10. The order of events is:

Peter’s confession
The Transfiguration
James and John ask for special favor.

James and John make their request for special positions after Peter’s confession, which cannot mean what the RCC says it means.

Jesus renames Simon as Rock and gives him a job, a role. That doesn't make him better than the rest of the Apostles. Popes can go to heaven or hell. The "top position" for human beings in the Catholic Church is Sainthood.

 

[Valletta]

I'm not debating that Jesus asked Peter to feed the flock, what I'm debating is Jesus building the church on Peter, not Jesus being the Messiah. The Church is built on Jesus, the cornerstone, and Him being the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. not a fallible man.

The primacy of Peter is the thing debated as even Paul, the least of apostles rebuked Peter.

Jesus could have said "I am Jesus and upon this Rock I will build My Church." Do you think Jesus goofed up? Why did he rename Simon in the same sentence and say "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I will build My Church?"

 

[Jamdoc]

God's ways are far above our ways. God often chose flawed men.

yeah funny how that works. Peter and the other 10 tried to choose a replacement for Judas Iscariot by drawing lots, they chose Matthias.
Jesus chose Paul
Who's name do you think will be written on the New Jerusalem?

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus could have said "I am Jesus and upon this Rock I will build My Church." Do you think Jesus goofed up? Why did he rename Simon in the same sentence and say "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I will build My Church?"

Little pebble, because Peter said a statement of faith, the correct statement of faith
vs big boulder, the statement of faith itself.
:The Church is built on Christ, on Christ being the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.
That's foundational to the Church, it's the first thing you have to believe to get saved.

Acts 8

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

What's the foundation here, is it "I believe Peter is the the Vicar of Christ"? or "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."?

 

[RileyG]

I strongly suggest you study the early Church and what it taught. Read the Church Fathers.

 

[RileyG]

Valleta: “Remember too that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries. No Catholic Church--no Bible. Also realize that the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church--not the other way around.”

This isn’t true. The Gospels and the Epistles were written before the Catholic Church was organized. The Gospels were not commissioned by any organized body, although they were each products of a community of Christians. The Church accepted the Old Testament recognized by Jewish authorities.

The Catholic Church chose what books went into the Bible. Period.

 

[Valletta]

Little pebble, because Peter said a statement of faith, the correct statement of faith
vs big boulder, the statement of faith itself.
:The Church is built on Christ, on Christ being the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.
That's foundational to the Church, it's the first thing you have to believe to get saved.

Acts 8


What's the foundation here, is it "I believe Peter is the the Vicar of Christ"? or "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."?

As I said, the original Aramaic name given to Simon by Jesus is preserved within the Biblical text and means "Rock."

 

[Jamdoc]

As I said, the original Aramaic name given to Simon by Jesus is preserved within the Biblical text and means "Rock."

it was written in Greek, and Greek has gendered words, and the gendered versions of "rock" carry different connotations.

 

[Valletta]

it was written in Greek, and Greek has gendered words, and the gendered versions of "rock" carry different connotations.

The Aramaic name Jesus gave Simon,"Kepha," which is transliterated into "Cephas," is preserved within the mostly Koine Greek text. Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Aramaic name Jesus gave Simon,"Kepha," which is transliterated into "Cephas," is preserved within the mostly Koine Greek text. Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic.

Πέτρος is what I see for Peter, petros
πέτρᾳ is what I see for the rock Jesus builds the church on, petra
Peter's a bad foundation. Jesus is a good one.

and by the fruits of the Catholic Church, and all the paganism it's taken in itself (Samhain, Yule, Ishtar, all just renamed to try to Christianize pagan festivals), prayer counting beads for vain repetitions that Jesus said not to do in prayer, praying to Mary and saints to act as intermediaries when 1 Timothy 2:5 says there's only one mediator between man and God, Jesus.... it's obvious to see that the modern Catholic Church is not what God wants.

 

[Valletta]

Πέτρος is what I see for Peter, petros
πέτρᾳ is what I see for the rock Jesus builds the church on, petra
Peter's a bad foundation. Jesus is a good one.

and by the fruits of the Catholic Church, and all the paganism it's taken in itself (Samhain, Yule, Ishtar, all just renamed to try to Christianize pagan festivals), prayer counting beads for vain repetitions that Jesus said not to do in prayer, praying to Mary and saints to act as intermediaries when 1 Timothy 2:5 says there's only one mediator between man and God, Jesus.... it's obvious to see that the modern Catholic Church is not what God wants.

"Κηφας" is used six times in the Bible, it is a transliteration of the Aramaic "kepha" and appears to be used interchangeably with Petros. Kepha means Rock in Aramaic and is the name Jesus gave to Simon. Please don't accuse other Christians of paganism. For example, the rosary is very much praying the Bible, what have you got against praying the Bible? I find it fruitful and you should try it, perhaps you will join me today my brother in Christ. When we say the rosary we focus on various mysteries, such as the agony of Jesus in the garden. There, by the way, Jesus THREE TIMES asked His Father the same thing. Was that vain repetition? No. It is VAIN repetition that is wrong, not repetition. Study the Bible for yourself instead of going to anti-Catholic websites, you should have caught that yourself. Pagans would babble on for hours and over and over again inserting various names into the repetition in hopes of learning the name of a demon and then controlling and gaining power from that demon. Do not be afraid to say the Our Father more than once, it is not vain repetition to do so.

 

[timothyu]

Pebble makes a perfect nickname for a chip off the old block (rock) of 'truth'. Why do people deny Jesus a sense of humour?

 

[Jamdoc]

"Κηφας" is used six times in the Bible, it is a transliteration of the Aramaic "kepha" and appears to be used interchangeably with Petros. Kepha means Rock in Aramaic and is the name Jesus gave to Simon. Please don't accuse other Christians of paganism. For example, the rosary is very much praying the Bible, what have you got against praying the Bible? I find it fruitful and you should try it, perhaps you will join me today my brother in Christ. When we say the rosary we focus on various mysteries, such as the agony of Jesus in the garden. There, by the way, Jesus THREE TIMES asked His Father the same thing. Was that vain repetition? No. It is VAIN repetition that is wrong, not repetition. Study the Bible for yourself instead of going to anti-Catholic websites, you should have caught that yourself. Pagans would babble on for hours and over and over again inserting various names into the repetition in hopes of learning the name of a demon and then controlling and gaining power from that demon. Do not be afraid to say the Our Father more than once, it is not vain repetition to do so.

Matthew 6

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

"as the heathen do" yes, the RCC absorbed literally ungodly amounts of paganism into its practices. I don't care that you find it fruitful if it's the wrong kind of fruit.

At Gethsemane Jesus prayed 3 separate times. That's different than literally using beads like Buddhists to count how many hail Marys you say in one prayer.

 

[Valletta]

Matthew 6


"as the heathen do" yes, the RCC absorbed literally ungodly amounts of paganism into its practices. I don't care that you find it fruitful if it's the wrong kind of fruit.

At Gethsemane Jesus prayed 3 separate times. That's different than literally using beads like Buddhists to count how many hail Marys you say in one prayer.

This is not the place for slurs against other religions. As I said, the Bible says "vain" repetitions, repeating words from the Bible is not vain. Catholics chose the 73 books of the Bible and have declared the Bible to be the Word of God. Many items and symbols are used by different religions, do you condemn Jesus and all Christians because Jesus carried the cross, and Christians use a cross as a symbol, an old pagan symbol? People use all kinds of items without embracing paganism.. Did you know about the Jewish prayer shawl, called a tallit? Numbers 15:38-39 states the children of Israel are to "make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments." They were to they affix a thread of tekhelet on the fringe of each corner. I believe Jews touch the knots or strings as they pray. The Torah's 613 mitzvahs are represented by the knots and strings of the tallit. I believe that the Eastern Orthodox use prayer beads and prayer ropes are used to count prayers, perhaps the Eastern Orthodox posting could enlighten us. I think some charismatics, Messianic Jews, and Pentecostals use a similar prayer shawl.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is not the place for slurs against other religions. As I said, the Bible says "vain" repetitions, repeating words from the Bible is not vain. Catholics chose the 73 books of the Bible and have declared the Bible to be the Word of God. Many items and symbols are used by different religions, do you condemn Jesus and all Christians because Jesus carried the cross, and Christians use a cross as a symbol, an old pagan symbol? People use all kinds of items without embracing paganism.. Did you know about the Jewish prayer shawl, called a tallit? Numbers 15:38-39 states the children of Israel are to "make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments." They were to they affix a thread of tekhelet on the fringe of each corner. I believe Jews touch the knots or strings as they pray. The Torah's 613 mitzvahs are represented by the knots and strings of the tallit. I believe that the Eastern Orthodox use prayer beads and prayer ropes are used to count prayers, perhaps the Eastern Orthodox posting could enlighten us. I think some charismatics, Messianic Jews, and Pentecostals use a similar prayer shawl.

and Jesus said not to do those things even if they were traditional prayers by the Jewish people. Jesus said stop it, that's what the heathen do, and says that God doesn't hear you any more the 50th time than He did the first time. Jesus was instructing Jewish disciples. yes, the very prayer shawl things you're talking about Jesus said stop it.

 

[Valletta]

and Jesus said not to do those things even if they were traditional prayers by the Jewish people. Jesus said stop it, that's what the heathen do, and says that God doesn't hear you any more the 50th time than He did the first time. Jesus was instructing Jewish disciples. yes, the very prayer shawl things you're talking about Jesus said stop it.

Incorrect. Jesus did say not to show off, but Jesus Himself wore a prayer shawl on occasion.