Jesus has broken the Sabbath

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

The greatest Church Father is Jesus Christ. In His own words He said He never broke His Father’s commandments John 15:10 which of course includes the 4th commandment and really this should be the end of the discussion if we believe Jesus.

The Sabbath is not a foreshadow of anything, it is one of God’s eternal moral commandments which Jesus said, if you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 repeated from His Father’s commandments. Exodus 20:6

Thank you, our Heavenly Father, for giving us such clear instructions so we can follow you in all Truth!

Yekcidmij · Nov 30, 2022

Emun said:
The Jews also accused Jesus of claiming to be God. And they are right. The Jews of that time who knew the Torah very well realized through Jesus' statements that Jesus claimed to be God. As you can see, the Jews do not always have to be wrong.

You've still given no reason to accept that their application of the command to not bear a burden on the Sabbath is correct. Your claim is simply that they "knew the Torah well" as if this is a reason. It's not a reason, and I gave specific counter-reason which you've not addressed. There is reason to reject their claim. (see my previous posts on this thread)

My only point about the weird position you're in is that you agree with the Pharisees on the law. I think that's a weird position to be in. IT could be correct, there's just no reaon to accept it without further justification. And there's reason to think it's not correct and that John is portraying it as not-correct in John 5.

Emun said:
I have already provided clear evidence that Jesus clearly broke the Sabbath.

And I gave clear counter-evidence. Time for you to address it I suppose.

Emun said:
But if that is not enough, I would like to point to Augustine, perhaps the greatest church father. He agrees that Jesus broke the Sabbath and explains it by saying that the Sabbath is only a foreshadow. CHURCH FATHERS: Tractates on the Gospel of John (Augustine)

Am I obligated to agree with Augustine on this matter? I gave counter-reasons. Does Augustine address my counter reasons? Nope.

Torah Keeper · Nov 30, 2022

Emun said:
The Jews also accused Jesus of claiming to be God. And they are right. The Jews of that time who knew the Torah very well realized through Jesus' statements that Jesus claimed to be God. As you can see, the Jews do not always have to be wrong.

I have already provided clear evidence that Jesus clearly broke the Sabbath. But if that is not enough, I would like to point to Augustine, perhaps the greatest church father. He agrees that Jesus broke the Sabbath and explains it by saying that the Sabbath is only a foreshadow. CHURCH FATHERS: Tractates on the Gospel of John (Augustine)

Yeshua knows His own Torah better than anyone, any Jew, or especially you @Emun.

If Yeshua sinned, then He was not the Messiah. You are claiming in a subtle way, that Yeshua is a false prophet. Please, take your antichrist heresy elsewhere.

Fervent · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
I thought my post explained it pretty well. Jesus has broken the Sabbath Many misunderstand Paul's writings- we even have a warning in scripture about it. 2 Peter 3:16. Sadly, many people would rather get rid of all the commandments instead of dealing with one of them.

Obviously if the Ten Commandments was something bad it wouldn't be a teaching of Jesus who kept them and chastised others for not keeping them John 15:10, John 14:15, Matthew 15:3-9, Matthew 19:17-19 and they certainly would not be in the Most Holy where God dwells. Revelation 11:19

Paul is not contradicting himself when he says what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 but is in harmony with God and Jesus holy commandments that we should keep through love and faith. John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Revelation14:12, Exodus 20:6 Romans 3:31

Anyway, take care.

You're talking around it, because the ministry of deatth is what is written on stone. You say its sin, so where is sin written on stone?

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Fervent said:
You're talking around it, because the ministry of deatth is what is written on stone. You say its sin, so where is sin written on stone?

Not talking around it at all, the ministry of death is the wages of sin, the condemnation for breaking the commandments not the commandments itself. The interpretation that God’s commandments is the ministry of death and we should worship other gods, or bow to images, steal, covet etc is the reason why we have the warning in scripture that many misinterpret Paul to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 Jesus warns us to Matthew 7:21-23. If we believe in Jesus we need to trust and have faith in His teachings.

For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 the commandments are holy and righteous Romans 7:12 does not sound like it reconciles with you view.

Fervent · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Not talking around it at all, the ministry of death is the wages of sin, the condemnation for breaking the commandments not the commandments itself. The interpretation that God’s commandments is the ministry of death and we should worship other gods, or bow to images, steal, covet etc is the reason why we have the warning in scripture that many misinterpret Paul to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 Jesus warns us to Matthew 7:21-23. If we believe in Jesus we need to trust and have faith in His teachings.

For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 the commandments are holy and righteous Romans 7:12 does not sound like it reconciles with you view.

The wages of sin are written on stone?

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Fervent said:
The wages of sin are written on stone?

I already answered this in detail here,
Jesus has broken the Sabbath
The commandments just points out sin, the ministry of death (condemnation) is breaking the commandments. This verse is not giving us permission to start sinning.

Paul is not promoting that we can start worshipping other gods, bowing to images, breaking His holy Sabbath day, taking His name in vain, not honoring our parents, stealing, coveting, committing adultery, lying because that sure seems like what you’re suggesting despite Paul saying what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 Jesus condemned people for not keeping the commandments of God saying when we place human tradition over God’s commandments one worships in vain. Matthew 15:3-9. Not a path we should be talking if we want to trust in Jesus.

Many use Paul’s writings to promote lawlessness, but they are misguided and sadly heading the wrong direction. Paul makes this point clear.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7

Looks like we might just have to agree to disagree and this will get sorted out soon enough.

God bless.

Fervent · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
I already answered this in detail here, your interpretation is incorrect.
Jesus has broken the Sabbath

I hope you are not suggesting Paul wants us to start worshipping other gods, bowing to images, breaking His holy Sabbath day, taking His name in vain, not honoring our parents, stealing, coveting, committing adultery, lying because that sure seems like what you’re suggesting despite Paul saying what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 Jesus condemned people for not keeping the commandments of God saying when we place human tradition over God’s commandments one worships in vain. Matthew 15:3-9. Not a path we should be talking if we want to trust in Jesus.

Many use Paul’s writings to promote lawlessness, but they are misguided and sadly heading the wrong direction. Paul makes this point clear.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7

Looks like we might just have to agree to disagree and this will get sorted out soon enough.

God bless.

Paul says the ministry of death is written on stone, so you haven't answered what it is just talked around it by giving alternatives which are not written on stone. Unless you are saying that the wages of sin are written on stone? Where are they written on stone?

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Fervent said:
Paul says the ministry of death is written on stone, so you haven't answered what it is just talked around it by giving alternatives which are not written on stone. Unless you are saying that the wages of sin are written on stone? Where are they written on stone?

The wages of sin is breaking what is written on stone- the law. The way around the condemnation of sin (death) is through Jesus by having a change in heart, repenting and turning from sin and walking in obedience to Him. Acts 2:38, John 14:15. God took what He wrote on stone and placed it in our hearts- we obey now because we love God 1 John 5:3 His law is written in our minds, so we are doers of His law not just hearer Romans 2:13, James 1:22, Revelation 22:14. I would not change your mind as to what God placed there for us to keep.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Fervent · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
The wages of sin is breaking what is written on stone- the law. The way around the condemnation of sin (death) is through Jesus by having a change in heart, repenting and turning from sin and walking in obedience to Him. Acts 2:38, John 14:15

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

You keep diving into irrelevant topics, the verse says the ministry of death is written on stone. Not the ministry of death is breaking what is written on stone.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Fervent said:
You keep diving into irrelevant topics, the verse says the ministry of death is written on stone. Not the ministry of death is breaking what is written on stone.

Like I said we will just have to agree to disagree. You take care.

Cornelius8L · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Hi there,

You might want to consider asking first before making statements as facts when they are anything but. For your reference, it was from my own personal bible study and I originally posted it here.

Ordinances

It seems to be a common theme for those who think the Sabbath commandment ended to use Colossians 2:16-17. I would like to take a look at this scriptures and see if what Paul is talking about is one of God’s commandments. The first step is understanding if commandments are ordinances...

www.christianforums.com

This verse is referring to two different things- the Sabbath and sacrificial sin offerings. There were daily offerings Exodus 20:38 Do people sin daily? Yes. Before Jesus became our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, this was the way to receive forgiveness for sins. Now we can go directly to Jesus because of His great sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin and sanctification when we repent and turn from sin (breaking God’s law) 1 John 3:4.

The Ten Commandments which includes the Sabbath commandment Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20 is what points out sin when broken so we know what not to do. Romans 7:7, 1 John 3:4. Jesus took the place of animal sacrifices Hebrews 10, Colossians 2:14 so we no longer sacrifice animals daily, including on the Sabbath. Animals sacrifice was because of sin when breaking God’s law and of course includes the 4th commandment which is part of God’s moral and righteous commandments.

SabbathBlessings said:
So what is Colossians 2:14-17 talking about? The sacrificial system in the annual sabbath(s) feast-day ordinances that was used for the forgiveness of sins. These all point to Jesus because He became our sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin and sanctification when we turn from sin and through Jesus He can give us a new heart and enables us to keep His commandments through love and faith. John 14:15-18, Romans 3:31. The blood of animals made nothing perfect Hebrews 10, but the blood of Christ can cleanse from all sins, when we turn from sin and walk with Christ in obedience to Him. The annual sacrificial sabbath(s) all came after the fall of man. The seventh day Sabbath is part of Creation Genesis 2:1-3 and was part of God’s perfect plan before the fall of man and sin. The sacrificial system was because of sin. These two sabbaths are very different and if one allowed the scriptures to reveal the context, this would be easy to understand that God did not do away with the one commandment He said to Remember and the only commandment that uses the word holy and blessed. Obviously it is not referring to the seventh day Sabbath as shown from Matthew 24:20, Isaiah 66:22-23, Revelation 14:12. Revelation 22:14-15 and the fact the apostles kept the Sabbath long after Jesus ascended back to heaven. Acts 18:4, Acts 13:44, Acts 13:42

Hi, your reply further confirmed that you are ignoring the additional sacrifices the Israeli made during Sabbath Day other than their daily sacrifices (Numbers 28:1-8). And I was saying you are repeating the whole post concerning Colossians 2:16-17 without amending it after we discussed Numbers 28:1-10 last time. There are daily sacrifices and weekly Sabbath Day sacrifices in this verse. The weekly Sabbath Day sacrifice is not the daily sacrifice nor replacing daily sacrifice. Therefore your narrative about Colossians 2:14-17 concerning the sacrificial system has to change.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
Hi, your reply further confirmed that you are ignoring the additional sacrifices the Israeli made during Sabbath Day other than their daily sacrifices (Numbers 28:1-8). And I was saying you are repeating the whole post concerning Colossians 2:16-17 without amending it after we discussed Numbers 28:1-10 last time. There are daily sacrifices and weekly Sabbath Day sacrifices in this verse. The weekly Sabbath Day sacrifice is not the daily sacrifice nor replacing daily sacrifice. Therefore your narrative about Colossians 2:14-17 concerning the sacrificial system has to change.

Daily sacrifices means everyday including the Sabbath. The weekly Sabbath is a commandment of God according to the Author Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20, which does not change the fact that Colossians 2:14-17 is about sacrificial ordinances , not any of God’s eternal commandments.

Cornelius8L · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
So what is Colossians 2:14-17 talking about? The sacrificial system in the annual sabbath(s) feast-day ordinances that was used for the forgiveness of sins.

Then, you should add "weekly Sabbath(s) sacrifice" in the statement here, which is on top of the daily sacrifice.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
Then, you should add "weekly Sabbath(s) sacrifice" in the statement here

It’s already covered daily animals sacrifices means just that, I never said they didn’t have animal sacrifices on the weekly Sabbath. All that ended when Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins (breaking God’s law) and sanctification when we turn from sin, repent and obey.

Cornelius8L · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
It’s already covered daily animals sacrifices means just that, I never said they didn’t have animal sacrifices on the weekly Sabbath. All that ended when Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins (breaking God’s law) and sanctification when we turn from sin, repent and obey.

The weekly Sabbath sacrifice is in addition to the daily sacrifice. On the Sabbath day, they have the usual daily sacrifice plus the weekly Sabbath sacrifice.

Numbers 28

1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“Command the Israelites and say to them: See that you present to Me at its appointed time the food for My offerings by fire, as a pleasing aroma to Me.

3And tell them that this is the offering made by fire you are to present to the LORD as a regular burnt offering each day: two unblemished year-old male lambs. 4Offer one lamb in the morning and the other at twilight 5along with a tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with a quarter hin of oil from pressed olives.

6This is a regular burnt offering established at Mount Sinai as a pleasing aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 7The drink offering accompanying each lamb shall be a quarter hin. Pour out the offering of fermented drink to the LORD in the sanctuary area. 8And offer the second lamb at twilight, with the same grain offering and drink offering as in the morning. It is an offering made by fire, a pleasing aroma to the LORD.

9On the Sabbath day, present two unblemished year-old male lambs, accompanied by a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, as well as a drink offering.

10This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
The weekly Sabbath sacrifice is in addition to the daily sacrifice. On the Sabbath day, they have the usual daily sacrifice plus the weekly Sabbath sacrifice.

Numbers 28
1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“Command the Israelites and say to them: See that you present to Me at its appointed time the food for My offerings by fire, as a pleasing aroma to Me.

3And tell them that this is the offering made by fire you are to present to the LORD as a regular burnt offering each day: two unblemished year-old male lambs. 4Offer one lamb in the morning and the other at twilight 5along with a tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with a quarter hin of oil from pressed olives.

6This is a regular burnt offering established at Mount Sinai as a pleasing aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 7The drink offering accompanying each lamb shall be a quarter hin. Pour out the offering of fermented drink to the LORD in the sanctuary area. 8And offer the second lamb at twilight, with the same grain offering and drink offering as in the morning. It is an offering made by fire, a pleasing aroma to the LORD.

9On the Sabbath day, present two unblemished year-old male lambs, accompanied by a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, as well as a drink offering.

10This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

Yes, there were sacrifices on the weekly Sabbath and I never said otherwise, these were in addition to the daily sacrifices. Every day there were sacrifices. You seem to be making an argument that I am not making.

Cornelius8L · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
So what is Colossians 2:14-17 talking about? The sacrificial system in the annual sabbath(s) feast-day ordinances that was used for the forgiveness of sins. These all point to Jesus because He became our sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin and sanctification when we turn from sin and through Jesus He can give us a new heart and enables us to keep His commandments through love and faith. John 14:15-18, Romans 3:31. The blood of animals made nothing perfect Hebrews 10, but the blood of Christ can cleanse from all sins, when we turn from sin and walk with Christ in obedience to Him. The annual sacrificial sabbath(s) all came after the fall of man.

So, you should edit this paragraph (in quote) that talks only about the annual sabbath feast sacrifice when the weekly sabbath sacrifice is also removed in the same way.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 30, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
So, you should edit this paragraph (in quote) that talks only about the annual sabbath feast sacrifice when the weekly sabbath sacrifice is also removed in the same way.

All sacrificial offerings for the forgiveness of sin ended at the cross, including the annual sabbath(s) ordinances when Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb, which is different than any of the Ten Commandments which points out sin. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

Cornelius8L · Nov 30, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
So what is Colossians 2:14-17 talking about? The sacrificial system in the annual sabbath(s) feast-day ordinances that was used for the forgiveness of sins.

Let me help,

Suggest adjustment to: “So what is Colossians 2:14-17 talking about? The sacrificial system in both the weekly sabbath(s) and annual sabbath(s) feast-day ordinances that was used for the forgiveness of sins.”

You may say it is not about the commandment in Exodus 20 but it sure relates to the weekly sabbath if we touch on the matter of sacrifices. Weekly Sabbath sacrifice is one of the instructions to keep the weekly sabbath in OT.

Jesus has broken the Sabbath

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