Jesus has broken the Sabbath

[DamianWarS]

And one may know that his interpretation of the sacred calendar day is hidden in the foundation of the world, (opening creation account, Matthew 13 parables, (cf. Mat 13:35, Psa 78:1-2 LXX)). If therefore the Pharisees had added a half hour before and after the daily Shabbat hour, so as to put a hedge about the commandment, he then did not break the commandment by telling the man to take up his mat and carry it because, as the passage says, "My Father works until right now", meaning he only violated their added hedge because his command to the healed man occurred during the half hour hedge before the Shabbat which the Pharisees had added to the Shabbat. He didn't break the Shabbat but merely violated their hedge which they had added to the Torah so as to supposedly protect the Shabbat and prevent people from violating it.

That's a lot of what ifs. A bit too much to base anything concrete on it.

 

[Gary K]

They had the wrong timing for the Shabbat hour of the day, (sacred calendar day), because they set a hedge about the time so as to insure that no one broke the Shabbat. In other words they were half an hour early because of their addition hedges which they themselves added to the commandments, but the Shabbat hour of the day commenced just as the Master spoke to them and said the words quoted above in John 5:17, and the Master himself makes it very plain for anyone who understands the Torah and the calendar taught therein: the Shabbat commenced exactly when he said it did in the passage, that is, "right now", (as he spoke).

So, you take your beliefs from the murders of Jesus. Apparently they are the ones to define truth in your eyes but just happened to make a mistake this time. I have a really hard time believing you said that.

 

[daq]

That's a lot of what ifs. A bit too much to base anything concrete on it.

It's all set in stone for me, not what if's, and that is by the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts. Start with the question, Are there not twelve hours of the day? and answer it. However, you must find it taught in the scripture and answer from the scripture, for we are not to accept the dogmas and decrees of man and are rather to be taught of Elohim, (in His Word).

The Master put this question to his disciples and therefore it is for us also, anyone who reads it, at least in imho: and when I understood this, I began to pray and seek the answer so as to answer the question put to me by the Master. The Father showed it to me in His Word. There are indeed twelve yom in a yom, and this is taught in the Torah, and this is the civil calendar day. There are also seven yamim in a yom, and this is the sacred calendar day, and it is taught in the opening creation account, and the seventh hour is the Shabbat hour in every day, (there are no nights between the yamim in the new creation view of the opening creation account and the seventh yom-hour is therefore the Shabbat). One who does not observe the Shabbat hour in each and every day will not likely see what is going on in John 5 or what I am talking about.

The reason the Master says, My Father works until right now, is because the Shabbat hour had just commenced when he spoke those words, and again, because they had added a half hour before and after the Shabbat hour, to put a hedge about the Shabbat, they falsely accused him and he actually corrected them right there in the text with his answer. The Father Himself was not observing the Shabbat in the half hour before the Shabbat like the Yhudim were doing and foisting upon the people with their hedges around everything.

 

[daq]

So, you take your beliefs from the murders of Jesus. Apparently they are the ones to define truth in your eyes but just happened to make a mistake this time. I have a really hard time believing you said that.

Please stop falsely accusing me or I will be forced to start reporting you.

 

[Gary K]

Please stop falsely accusing me or I will be forced to start reporting you.

Who were the greatest of all legalists of all time? Ever read the Talmud? Who was responsible for the murder of Jesus?

 

[DamianWarS]

It's all set in stone for me, not what if's, and that is by the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts. Start with the question, Are there not twelve hours of the day? and answer it. However, you must find it taught in the scripture and answer from the scripture, for we are not to accept the dogmas and decrees of man and are rather to be taught of Elohim, (in His Word).

The Master put this question to his disciples and therefore it is for us also, anyone who reads it, at least in imho: and when I understood this, I began to pray and seek the answer so as to answer the question put to me by the Master. The Father showed it to me in His Word. There are indeed twelve yom in a yom, and this is taught in the Torah, and this is the civil calendar day. There are also seven yamim in a yom, and this is the sacred calendar day, and it is taught in the opening creation account, and the seventh hour is the Shabbat hour in every day, (there are no nights between the yamim in the new creation view of the opening creation account and the seventh yom-hour is therefore the Shabbat). One who does not observe the Shabbat hour in each and every day will not likely see what is going on in John 5 or what I am talking about.

The reason the Master says, My Father works until right now, is because the Shabbat hour had just commenced when he spoke those words, and again, because they had added a half hour before and after the Shabbat hour, to put a hedge about the Shabbat, they falsely accused him and he actually corrected them right there in the text with his answer. The Father Himself was not observing the Shabbat in the half hour before the Shabbat like the Yhudim were doing and foisting upon the people with their hedges around everything.

I don't share your interpretation of Mat 5:17. It reads: "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working." This is in reference to Jesus healing on the Sabbath. The text does focus on any conflict of Sabbath keeping times and just matter of factly says "because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath..." I see no cause to cast doupt on when the Sabbath was.

Some translations says "my Father is always working" or "he never ceased working". I see the point of the text says that both Christ and the Father are always working and never cease. In the creation account the work was finished thus the 7th day was ushered in, with Christ he was sent to accomplish a work, and on the cross he uttered "it is finished" and breathed his last ushering in a new era of rest for mankind, which is salvation.

Clearly this "work" isn't the only work God is doing and he seems to always be active and when one finishes another begins or simply put God is never at rest.

This tells me God has a plan and he does not wind up a clock and let it unfold as an observer but rather he is an active participator. I do see a verse like this cause to question the timing of the Sabbath and to get into such nuanced views seems to miss the point.

 

[daq]

I don't share your interpretation of Mat 5:17. It reads: "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working." This is in reference to Jesus healing on the Sabbath. The text does focus on any conflict of Sabbath keeping times and just matter of factly says "because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath..." I see no cause to cast doupt on when the Sabbath was.

Some translations says "my Father is always working" or "he never ceased working". I see the point of the text says that both Christ and the Father are always working and never cease. In the creation account the work was finished thus the 7th day was ushered in, with Christ he was sent to accomplish a work, and on the cross he uttered "it is finished" and breathed his last ushering in a new era of rest for mankind, which is salvation.

Clearly this "work" isn't the only work God is doing and he seems to always be active and when one finishes another begins or simply put God is never at rest.

This tells me God has a plan and he does not wind up a clock and let it unfold as an observer but rather he is an active participator. I do see a verse like this cause to question the timing of the Sabbath and to get into such nuanced views seems to miss the point.

People claim to be literalists but the fact of the matter is that most who claim such are nothing of the sort when it comes to the original languages because their translators, translations teams, and translations are not sufficiently literalists with the text. It is much more perfect than people even imagine. Oh well, suit yourself.

 

[daq]

So, you take your beliefs from the murders of Jesus. Apparently they are the ones to define truth in your eyes but just happened to make a mistake this time. I have a really hard time believing you said that.

Deuteronomy 5:20, Deuteronomy 19:15-20, Matthew 7:1.

Who were the greatest of all legalists of all time? Ever read the Talmud? Who was responsible for the murder of Jesus?

Are they not the same who taught your prophetess the timing and frequency of the Shabbat? And did you not receive those things from your prophetess, Ellen G. White? Why therefore do you accuse me of doing what you do? My understanding of the timing and frequency of the Shabbat comes from the scripture, not from modern Pharisaic Judaism: it is you and your prophetess who learned the timing and frequency of the Shabbat from modern Pharisaic Judaism, not me.

Matthew 7:5.

 

[DamianWarS]

People claim to be literalists but the fact of the matter is that most who claim such are nothing of the sort when it comes to the original languages because their translators, translations teams, and translations are not sufficiently literalists with the text. It is much more perfect than people even imagine. Oh well, suit yourself.

Do you think scripture then is intranslatable?

 

[Gary K]

Deuteronomy 5:20, Deuteronomy 19:15-20, Matthew 7:1.



Are they not the same who taught your prophetess the timing and frequency of the Shabbat? And did you not receive those things from your prophetess, Ellen G. White? Why therefore do you accuse me of doing what you do? My understanding of the timing and frequency of the Shabbat comes from the scripture, not from modern Pharisaic Judaism: it is you and your prophetess who learned the timing and frequency of the Shabbat from modern Pharisaic Judaism, not me.

Matthew 7:5.

Nope. I take my beliefs from scripture. Do you ever see me quoting Ellen White to support my beliefs outside of the thread about her? You would be amazed at twhat she actually teaches. She teaches the love of God. It was her writings that first introduced me to the love of God.

 

[daq]

Nope.

So she didn't teach that the Shabbat falls on Saturday, and begins and ends at sundown, and you neither observe nor believe those things either? Perhaps you should be more careful so that your denials and deflections are not perceived by others to be outright lies.

 

[Gary K]

So she didn't teach that the Shabbat falls on Saturday, and begins and ends at sundown, and you neither observe nor believe those things either? Perhaps you should be more careful so that your denials and deflections are not perceived by others to be outright lies.

You make me chuckle. I guess you say she was a Pharisee because she taught love for God and love for others. I guess the accusation comes because I said the Pharisees were murderers and the greatest legalists of all time. I guess that automatically makes anyone who keeps the Sabbath a legalist in your book. That would include you.

 

[daq]

Do you think scripture then is intranslatable?

Why would I believe such a thing when I already explained my reasoning from the scripture and even translated the critical portion of the statement in the passage in question from the OP?

ἄρτι - just now, right now, at this moment

Strong's Greek: 737. ἄρτι (arti) -- just now

ἕως ἄρτι - until just now, until right now, until this moment

The seventh hour:

John 4:5-7 ASV
5 So he cometh to a city of Samaria, called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph:
6 and Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

John 4:19-24 ASV
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.
22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

In the above the observant reader will see that the seventh hour commenced as they spoke, and therefore the Master says, "the hour comes, and now is", and this is surely the meaning because we are told at the commencement of the passage that when he arrived at the well "it was about the sixth hour". And what comes next in the passage as already noted previously herein in this thread?

The seventh hour:

John 4:46-53 ASV
46 He came therefore again unto Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judæa into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son; for he was at the point of death.
48 Jesus therefore said unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will in no wise believe.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. The man believed the word that Jesus spake unto him, and he went his way.
51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, saying, that his son lived.
52 So he inquired of them the hour when he began to amend. They said therefore unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53 So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

And what comes immediately following these things in the very next passage?

The seventh hour Shabbat:

My Father works until this moment, just now, right now, (ἕως ἄρτι - John 5:17).

I have not changed the text to suit my own fanciful theory concerning the Shabbat: these things I understood from the scripture well before I actually understood John 5:17, and in fact I only came to understand the statement in John 5:17 because of the understanding of the Shabbat as taught by the Master himself in the Gospel accounts, (and there is much more than these basic, simple, preliminary things).

These things are expounding the correct understanding of the Torah: specifically, in this case, the Shabbat hour which is the seventh hour of the sacred calendar day laid out in the opening creation account. Yom is Light, for that is what Elohim calls the Light, (Yom, Gen 1:5). That is not the same as "Day", for we have teachings concerning these things in other scripture passages. If one day with the Master is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day, then a yom may either be a day or a thousand years.

Moreover, when the spies brought back an evil report upon the land, what was the breach of promise? It was a year for a day, forty years in the wilderness, and therefore a yom may also be a year, a year for a day. And when the Prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lay on his sides, a certain amount of days for Yisrael, and a certain amount of days for Yhudah, it is a day for a year. If therefore a yom may be a day, and a yom may be a year, and a yom may be a thousand years, then no doubt a yom may also be an hour: for Yom is Light according to the Word of Elohim in Genesis 1:5. Whenever therefore yom is used for an increment of time it may be any increment of time, depending on the context, for Yom is Light.

 

[DamianWarS]

Why would I believe such a thing when I already explained my reasoning from the scripture and even translated the critical portion of the statement in the passage in question from the OP?

ἄρτι - just now, right now, at this moment

Strong's Greek: 737. ἄρτι (arti) -- just now

ἕως ἄρτι - until just now, until right now, until this moment

The seventh hour:

John 4:5-7 ASV
5 So he cometh to a city of Samaria, called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph:
6 and Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

John 4:19-24 ASV
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.
22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

In the above the observant reader will see that the seventh hour commenced as they spoke, and therefore the Master says, "the hour comes, and now is", and this is surely the meaning because we are told at the commencement of the passage that when he arrived at the well "it was about the sixth hour". And what comes next in the passage as already noted previously herein in this thread?

The seventh hour:

John 4:46-53 ASV
46 He came therefore again unto Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judæa into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son; for he was at the point of death.
48 Jesus therefore said unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will in no wise believe.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. The man believed the word that Jesus spake unto him, and he went his way.
51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, saying, that his son lived.
52 So he inquired of them the hour when he began to amend. They said therefore unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53 So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

And what comes immediately following these things in the very next passage?

The seventh hour Shabbat:

My Father works until this moment, just now, right now, (ἕως ἄρτι - John 5:17).

I have not changed the text to suit my own fanciful theory concerning the Shabbat: these things I understood from the scripture well before I actually understood John 5:17, and in fact I only came to understand the statement in John 5:17 because of the understanding of the Shabbat as taught by the Master himself in the Gospel accounts, (and there is much more than these basic, simple, preliminary things).

These things are expounding the correct understanding of the Torah: specifically, in this case, the Shabbat hour which is the seventh hour of the sacred calendar day laid out in the opening creation account. Yom is Light, for that is what Elohim calls the Light, (Yom, Gen 1:5). That is not the same as "Day", for we have teachings concerning these things in other scripture passages. If one day with the Master is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day, then a yom may either be a day or a thousand years.

Moreover, when the spies brought back an evil report upon the land, what was the breach of promise? It was a year for a day, forty years in the wilderness, and therefore a yom may also be a year, a year for a day. And when the Prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lay on his sides, a certain amount of days for Yisrael, and a certain amount of days for Yhudah, it is a day for a year. If therefore a yom may be a day, and a yom may be a year, and a yom may be a thousand years, then no doubt a yom may also be an hour: for Yom is Light according to the Word of Elohim in Genesis 1:5. Whenever therefore yom is used for an increment of time it may be any increment of time, depending on the context, for Yom is Light.

I think this is a cryptic way of approaching the text, especially when the text makes no extra clarification. The text says the healing was on the Sabbath so regardless of what hour you choose to accept when the Sabbath starts or when the healing took place the text still says it was on the Sabbath. So I accept it for what it says that the healing was on the Sabbath and although it can be benificial to get into the weeds of study if it moves us away from what the text naturally says there better be some good support for it, I don't see that support in this case.

I do appreciate that the expression "until this moment" itself may be ambigious and is noted elsewhere like with the woman at the well and this may be cause to reconcile the meaning, however if it is a controversial conclusion then it demands a deeper study as to why the popular interpretation is a conflicting view and I don't think you're there yet. What you've done is presented a legitimate cause to go into deeper study but not a conclusive answer.