Jerusalem or Rome: Who is Babylon the Great?

[Canuckster]

I believe it's Jerusalem,

“And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their [Babylon’s] merchandise anymore: gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen, silk, scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of ivory, every kind of precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; cinnamon, incense, fragrant oil, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses. chariots, and bodies and souls of men.”

Since when has the city of Jerusalem brokered every commodity on the planet including the souls of men (slavery)?

“The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, … Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance… cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’ For your merchants were the great men of the earth,”

Since when do the great merchants and men of the earth come from the city of Jerusalem and why would they mourn her destruction?

“...for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. And in her was found the blood of the prophets... saints, and of ALL who were slain on the earth.”

Since when has the city of Jerusalem controlled global media and academia, which is necessary to deceive all the nations, and how can the city of Jerusalem be responsible for ALL who were slain on the earth,” meaning all the great wars?

Rev. 18: 11-24

 

[Timtofly]

“And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their [Babylon’s] merchandise anymore: gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen, silk, scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of ivory, every kind of precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; cinnamon, incense, fragrant oil, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses. chariots, and bodies and souls of men.”

Since when has the city of Jerusalem brokered every commodity on the planet including the souls of men (slavery)?

“The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, … Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance… cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’ For your merchants were the great men of the earth,”

Since when do the great merchants and men of the earth come from the city of Jerusalem and why would they mourn her destruction?

“...for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. And in her was found the blood of the prophets... saints, and of ALL who were slain on the earth.”

Since when has the city of Jerusalem controlled global media and academia, which is necessary to deceive all the nations, and how can the city of Jerusalem be responsible for ALL who were slain on the earth,” meaning all the great wars?

Rev. 18: 11-24

Since the 7th Trumpet. This is talking about the last 42 months of life as we know it between the 7th Trumpet and Armageddon. Jerusalem is the center of the world's political and economic control.

 

[Emun]

Since when has the city of Jerusalem brokered every commodity on the planet

It does not say of the whole planet. In the Bible, earth usually refers only to the area in the Middle East. Nebuchadnezzar is also said to have ruled over the whole earth, but we know that his territory was only parts of the Middle East.

including the souls of men (slavery)?

Slavery existed in Jerusalem. This was common and existed already in the time of David.

Since when do the great merchants and men of the earth come from the city of Jerusalem and why would they mourn her destruction?

Since when has the city of Jerusalem controlled global media and academia, which is necessary to deceive all the nations,

By Jerusalem is meant not only the city itself, but also the whole nation, that is, Israel. And Israel's great influence in the world cannot be denied.

and how can the city of Jerusalem be responsible for ALL who were slain on the earth,” meaning all the great wars?

Revelation does not really refer to wars. It means the prophets and saints (Revelation 18:24). Babylon is to blame for the death of all the prophets and saints killed on earth, that is what Revelation is saying. And this is said about only one city in the Bible and that is Jerusalem (Luke 11:50).

 

[Emun]

I believe it's Jerusalem, because...

1. Babylon is the city where the Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8)
2. Babylon killed all Prophets and Saints (Revelation 18:24); same did Jesus say about Jerusalem (Matthew 23:30-37).
3. Babylon is the city which was on the beast with the seven heads. The seven heads which are symbolical described mountains aren't literal mountains, they represent Kingdoms. The first six Kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic, Seleucid and Roman Empire. That Babylon was on the heads means it existed in their times and had influence. Rome only entered the world stage from the sixth head, with the Roman Empire. Jerusalem, on the other hand, existed and had influence since Babylon, and even before. Moreover, Jerusalem has always killed prophets from Babylon to the Roman Empire and even before. Rome did not.

In my opinion, these three points clearly disqualify Rome as Babylon. It can only be Jerusalem. Remember that through the Acts of the Apostles it is known that the Jews were the first to persecute the Church. They are called enemies of God in the NT and Jesus in Revelation calls their synagogues "synagogues of the devil".

Preface, I am not a partial preterist. I believe that the destruction of Babylon does not refer to the event in 70 AD. There will be a third and final destruction of Jerusalem.

Anyone who thinks I am wrong or would like to add something is welcome to do so.

I seriously wonder how anyone can still doubt that Israel is Babylon after reading through these 3 proofs. No one has yet been able to refute any of these three points.

 

[Canuckster]

No one has yet been able to refute any of these three points.

All that matters is your main point: that the harlot of Babylon is the city of Jerusalem. That point is refuted by the fact that today’s city of Jerusalem (or as you now call the nation of Israel) doesn’t control international trade, it doesn’t broker every commodity on the planet, it doesn’t control global media and academia and it’s not responsible for “ALL who were slain on the earth“.

 

[Emun]

(or as you now call the nation of Israel)

Jerusalem represents the whole people and that is Israel. Jesus said, for example, that no prophet has ever been killed outside Jerusalem. But this is wrong if we take it literally. Because according to the Old Testament, prophets have already been killed outside of Jerusalem. The solution to this apparent contradiction is that Jesus uses Jerusalem to refer to all the people, that is Israel. What he meant to say is that all the prophets were killed by Israel.

doesn’t control international trade, it doesn’t broker every commodity on the planet, it doesn’t control global media and academia and it’s not responsible

Think logically. Revelation says that Babylon has existed since the first head, this first head was the Neo-Babylonian Empire. Revelation says that the first 5 heads already fell at the time of John and Revelation says that Babylon sat on the heads, which means that Babylon already existed at the time of these heads.

Now think logically. This is as simple as the 1+1. If Babylon existed before the first century and murdered prophets. What city other than Jerusalem comes into question here? This city existed in the times of Egypt and still exists today. And has murdered prophets since Egypt.

And as I told you earlier, Revelation nowhere says that Babylon will be a city that literally controls the whole world. It seems like you don't have enough Bible knowledge, have you read the whole Bible? Then you should know that when the Bible talks about the whole earth, it doesn't really have to be about the whole earth.

“ALL who were slain on the earth“.

The only city in the entire Bible that is said to have killed all the prophets on earth is Jerusalem (Luke 11:50).


It's really funny that no one has really managed to disprove only one of these 3 proofs of mine.

 

[Canuckster]

Jerusalem represents the whole people and that is Israel. Jesus said, for example, that no prophet has ever been killed outside Jerusalem. But this is wrong if we take it literally. Because according to the Old Testament, prophets have already been killed outside of Jerusalem. The solution to this apparent contradiction is that Jesus uses Jerusalem to refer to all the people, that is Israel. What he meant to say is that all the prophets were killed by Israel.

Think logically. Revelation says that Babylon has existed since the first head, this first head was the Neo-Babylonian Empire. Revelation says that the first 5 heads already fell at the time of John and Revelation says that Babylon sat on the heads, which means that Babylon already existed at the time of these heads.

Now think logically. This is as simple as the 1+1. If Babylon existed before the first century and murdered prophets. What city other than Jerusalem comes into question here? This city existed in the times of Egypt and still exists today. And has murdered prophets since Egypt.

And as I told you earlier, Revelation nowhere says that Babylon will be a city that literally controls the whole world. It seems like you don't have enough Bible knowledge, have you read the whole Bible? Then you should know that when the Bible talks about the whole earth, it doesn't really have to be about the whole earth.

The only city in the entire Bible that is said to have killed all the prophets on earth is Jerusalem (Luke 11:50).


It's really funny that no one has really managed to disprove only one of these 3 proofs of mine.

I've disproved your main point upon which the other three rest. Today's Jerusalem doesn't control global trade, doesn't control global media/academia and was never responsible for “ALL who were slain on the earth“ as you keep conveniently shortening that verse and restricting it to saints to fit your opinion. And it's not talking about Babylon being a city in Revelation it's talking about Mystery Babylon the Great, a harlot who sits on may waters. Jerusalem doesn’t sit on many waters... you're not reading it properly. You got the place wrong but the people (those who rule today's Jerusalem) right. For the people who control Jerusalem also control the world but not through Jerusalem

 

[Andrew Watson]

Babylon the Great are the unfaithful people of God, the old Israel.

Revelation 18:4 "Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues."

Bible Verses about Israel as Harlot

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[Trivalee]

I believe it's Jerusalem, because...

1. Babylon is the city where the Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8)
2. Babylon killed all Prophets and Saints (Revelation 18:24); same did Jesus say about Jerusalem (Matthew 23:30-37).
3. Babylon is the city which was on the beast with the seven heads. The seven heads which are symbolical described mountains aren't literal mountains, they represent Kingdoms. The first six Kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic, Seleucid and Roman Empire. That Babylon was on the heads means it existed in their times and had influence. Rome only entered the world stage from the sixth head, with the Roman Empire. Jerusalem, on the other hand, existed and had influence since Babylon, and even before. Moreover, Jerusalem has always killed prophets from Babylon to the Roman Empire and even before. Rome did not.

In my opinion, these three points clearly disqualify Rome as Babylon. It can only be Jerusalem. Remember that through the Acts of the Apostles it is known that the Jews were the first to persecute the Church. They are called enemies of God in the NT and Jesus in Revelation calls their synagogues "synagogues of the devil".

Preface, I am not a partial preterist. I believe that the destruction of Babylon does not refer to the event in 70 AD. There will be a third and final destruction of Jerusalem.

Anyone who thinks I am wrong or would like to add something is welcome to do so.

According to Isaiah 13:17-22, ancient Babylon was destroyed never to be rebuilt again. Therefore, references to Babylon in Revelation denote world systems entrenched in corruption, idolatry, etc. Notice that Babylon is destroyed twice - in Rev 17 and 18. Therefore, it is not a literal city and cannot be Rome or Jerusalem.

I've read the Bible from Gen to Rev and can't recall any reference to a 3rd and final destruction of Jerusalem. Please provide scripture to back your claim. However, the AC's army will attack Jerusalem and overcome the city at the behest of the Lord (Zech 14:1-4). But his victory will be short-lived as the Lord returns to the Mount of Olives to destroy his army at Armageddon.

 

[oikonomia]

Babylon the Mother of Harlots in Revelation 17 is a religious Babylon.
The Roman Catholic Church is the best interpretation.
In Revelation 18 it is a material Babylon, Rome.

When doubters show me examples about God's judgments on Israel and Jerusalem, they are not parallel.
What they should study is God's judgments on ancient Babylon.
Then it is a compartive parallel.

Reasons why Christians doubt that Babylon the Great Mother of Harlots is the RCC include:

1.) They are too natural minded and think mostly of material things.
2.) They thenselves are still under such influence of RCC that they don't recognize it.

3.) They are still captive from the All-inclusive Christ by one of the "daughters" of the Mother.
They are still in denominational Christianity not realizing what a defeat it is to the church to be divided into denominations.

4.) They may assume that to say Babylon is the RCC is the Catholic bashing of Protestants.

5.) To be faitr, they just think Jerusalem is a better fit because of her sins.
And there are some good verses to support. But not good enough.

6.) The books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Zechariah, Haggai about the return FROM Babylon back to the Promise Land are
not well understood in the New Testament sense

7.) They fail to distinguish between the problem of opposition to Christ from Jerusalem clinging to the Law
and opposition to Christ from Christianity clinging to Paganism.

I think the former thread on this called "What Does Revelation Reveal" covered many of these same arguments.

 

[Aaron112]

I believe it's Jerusalem, because...

1. Babylon is the city where the Lord was crucified.

Perhaps, but does not the same Bible say clearly that some are crucifying the Lord daily, wherever they are ?

 

[Aaron112]

2. Babylon killed all Prophets and Saints

Again, this happens worldwide. Today, even, daily.... ongoing, continuum. Not recognized, not able to be recognized here today.

 

[Aaron112]

3. Babylon is the city which was on the beast with the seven heads. The seven heads which are symbolical described mountains aren't literal mountains, they represent Kingdoms.

Again, world wide, not just one place --- as you say "symbolical" "aren't literal" ....

 

[sparow]

Is Babylon ever a holy city?

Depends on what holy means; Holy probably has a different meaning to holy, the capital H making the difference; sometimes Holy can mean extreme reverence, other times it can mean sanctified.

Babylon is set apart as a type for evil, it is the abode of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation; I recently notice when reading Daniel 7, associated with Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon, The first beast a LION with eagle wings; the lion and EAGLE are two of the banner symbols, representing six of the twelve tribes; Then this beast is made look like a MAN, a third symbol representing 3 tribes; last this beast is given a human mind; doesn't this sound like the image of the beast in Revelation? What happened to the three tribes that camped behind the banner bearing the image of the Ox?

 

[ewq1938]

Depends on what holy means; Holy probably has a different meaning to holy, the capital H making the difference

There is no such thing as capital letters VS. small letters in the manuscripts. All letters are the same size. Babylon was never a holy city but Jerusalem was. Certain all major cities will be corrupt during the GT. Babylon also rides the 7 headed beast in Rev 17, and those heads are mountains. If one thinks those are 7 countries or even cities, there's 7 not one associated with her. I personally believe the 7 mountains represent the 7 continents IE: the entire world.

 

[sparow]

There is no such thing as capital letters VS. small letters in the manuscripts. All letters are the same size. Babylon was never a holy city but Jerusalem was. Certain all major cities will be corrupt during the GT. Babylon also rides the 7 headed beast in Rev 17, and those heads are mountains. If one thinks those are 7 countries or even cities, there's 7 not one associated with her. I personally believe the 7 mountains represent the 7 continents IE: the entire world.

If we were using the manuscripts we would not have a problem with doctrines of men; but the two notion for holy still apply. Mountains generally mean nations, 7 mountains would mean all the nations. Off the cuff I would suggest the Vatican is the city that is going to cop it, but it depends on who the beast is; it could be New York. Other scriptures tell us Jerusalem is going to be flattened; but so far I cannot see any reason why Jerusalem would be called Babylon.

 

[oikonomia]

Depends on what holy means; Holy probably has a different meaning to holy, the capital H making the difference; sometimes Holy can mean extreme reverence, other times it can mean sanctified.

Babylon is set apart as a type for evil, it is the abode of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation; I recently notice when reading Daniel 7, associated with Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon, The first beast a LION with eagle wings; the lion and EAGLE are two of the banner symbols, representing six of the twelve tribes; Then this beast is made look like a MAN, a third symbol representing 3 tribes; last this beast is given a human mind; doesn't this sound like the image of the beast in Revelation? What happened to the three tribes that camped behind the banner bearing the image of the Ox?

Though Babylon the Mother of Harlots is set forth as evil in Revelation, the beast upon which she rides is also evil.
So we have TWO evil entitites.

And though one evil entity rides around on the other evil entity, the two are eventually opposed to each other.
If they are not in opposition then there would be no attacking of the first evil entity Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, BY the second entity, the beast upon which she rides.

Here we see clearly this enmity and attack. [my emphasis]

"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, THESE WILL HATE THE HARLOT and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire." (Rev. 17:16)

Obviously then, there is no love affair of the Beast with the Harlot. How do so many Bible readers not realize this?
Now the hatred of the Beast toward the Harlot is not the only hatred the beast has.
Obviously the Beast also hates the Lamb of God, the Redeemer Jesus Christ and makes war with Him.

"These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast. These WILL MAKE WAR WITH THE LAMB and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and KIng of kings and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them." (Rev. 17:13,14)

The evil Beast is against the Lamb of God, Christ.
The evil Beast is also against the Mother of Harlots, the mysterious Babylon the Great.

Is this grasped?

Now Babylon the Mother of Harlots is negative too.
Her negativety is because she is the OPPOSITE of the Wife of Christ.
What the Wife and Bride are to Christ, Babylon is the confused, mixed, corrupted, facade masquerading as the Wife.
But God she is not recognized as the Wife but as the Harlot Mother of many daughters.

Though she is a counterfeit, a facade, a pretender nevertheless the people of God have been CAUGHT up within her.
This compares to the saints in Israel being CAUGHT away into Babylon. They were carried away into captivity.

Here again we see the heavely voices calls for the people of God to come OUT of her.
"And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues." (Rev. 18:4)

We must distinguish Antichrist from Babylon. Though they BOTH are evil, the two evils are not the same.
Though they are both evil, God's justified saints, His people have been caught up in the second evil, the Mother of Harlots.

We should interpret Babylon as something carrying away into captivity God's people.
Yet that something is hated eventually by the Antichrist who also HATES the Lamb of God.

Having grasped this hopefully, let us go back to Paul's explanation of Antichrist opposing ALL that pertains to God, declaring himself to be God.

" . . . the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worshup, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:3b,4)

This is the ultimate warfare between the secular goverment and the religious entity of a mixture which happens to contain IN that mixture many of God's genuinely saved saints. It is not that easy to understand because EVERY saint who is of God's people is ALSO a constituent of the genuine Bride and Wife, the New Jerusalem.

They are called to COME OUT of the mixture with unbelievers and corruption to be the pure Bride and Wife of the Lamb, the Lamb which conquers the rebellious government of the antchrist.

" These will make war with the Lamb and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them." (Rev. 17:13,14)

Decouple the Beast from the Harlot.
Recognize the antagonism between the two though both are negative.
Though it is certainly true in the OT that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnessor was evil, the relationship of the Beast and company to the Mother of Harlots, Babylon is of antagonism.

Your thoughts before I add a bit more to explain this?

 

[ewq1938]

If we were using the manuscripts we would not have a problem with doctrines of men; but the two notion for holy still apply.

It does not apply. It does not exist. When the bible states Jerusalem is holy in Rev 11, it is holy. There is no "Holy VS. holy" in biblical Greek.

 

[sparow]

Though Babylon the Mother of Harlots is set forth as evil in Revelation, the beast upon which she rides is also evil.
So we have TWO evil entitites.

And though one evil entity rides around on the other evil entity, the two are eventually opposed to each other.
If they are not in opposition then there would be no attacking of the first evil entity Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, BY the second entity, the beast upon which she rides.

Here we see clearly this enmity and attack. [my emphasis]

"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, THESE WILL HATE THE HARLOT and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire." (Rev. 17:16)

Obviously then, there is no love affair of the Beast with the Harlot. How do so many Bible readers not realize this?
Now the hatred of the Beast toward the Harlot is not the only hatred the beast has.
Obviously the Beast also hates the Lamb of God, the Redeemer Jesus Christ and makes war with Him.

"These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast. These WILL MAKE WAR WITH THE LAMB and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and KIng of kings and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them." (Rev. 17:13,14)

The evil Beast is against the Lamb of God, Christ.
The evil Beast is also against the Mother of Harlots, the mysterious Babylon the Great.

Is this grasped?

Now Babylon the Mother of Harlots is negative too.
Her negativety is because she is the OPPOSITE of the Wife of Christ.
What the Wife and Bride are to Christ, Babylon is the confused, mixed, corrupted, facade masquerading as the Wife.
But God she is not recognized as the Wife but as the Harlot Mother of many daughters.

Though she is a counterfeit, a facade, a pretender nevertheless the people of God have been CAUGHT up within her.
This compares to the saints in Israel being CAUGHT away into Babylon. They were carried away into captivity.

Here again we see the heavely voices calls for the people of God to come OUT of her.
"And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues." (Rev. 18:4)

We must distinguish Antichrist from Babylon. Though they BOTH are evil, the two evils are not the same.
Though they are both evil, God's justified saints, His people have been caught up in the second evil, the Mother of Harlots.

We should interpret Babylon as something carrying away into captivity God's people.
Yet that something is hated eventually by the Antichrist who also HATES the Lamb of God.

Having grasped this hopefully, let us go back to Paul's explanation of Antichrist opposing ALL that pertains to God, declaring himself to be God.

" . . . the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worshup, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:3b,4)

This is the ultimate warfare between the secular goverment and the religious entity of a mixture which happens to contain IN that mixture many of God's genuinely saved saints. It is not that easy to understand because EVERY saint who is of God's people is ALSO a constituent of the genuine Bride and Wife, the New Jerusalem.

They are called to COME OUT of the mixture with unbelievers and corruption to be the pure Bride and Wife of the Lamb, the Lamb which conquers the rebellious government of the antchrist.

" These will make war with the Lamb and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them." (Rev. 17:13,14)

Decouple the Beast from the Harlot.
Recognize the antagonism between the two though both are negative.
Though it is certainly true in the OT that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnessor was evil, the relationship of the Beast and company to the Mother of Harlots, Babylon is of antagonism.

Your thoughts before I add a bit more to explain this?

I do not have any complaint; there is danger of error in predicting ahead; there are variables that can change detail; I expect everything that will happen will be an anti-type. Most people take symbolic language literally, you don't seem to be doing that.

 

[sparow]

It does not apply. It does not exist. When the bible states Jerusalem is holy in Rev 11, it is holy. There is no "Holy VS. holy" in biblical Greek.

we seem to be having a misunderstanding; I think I meant to say holy can refer to an extreme royal status, other times it can imply sanctification.