Jerusalem or Rome: Who is Babylon the Great?

Emun

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I believe it's Jerusalem, because...

1. Babylon is the city where the Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8)
2. Babylon killed all Prophets and Saints (Revelation 18:24); same did Jesus say about Jerusalem (Matthew 23:30-37).
3. Babylon is the city which was on the beast with the seven heads. The seven heads which are symbolical described mountains aren't literal mountains, they represent Kingdoms. The first six Kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic, Seleucid and Roman Empire. That Babylon was on the heads means it existed in their times and had influence. Rome only entered the world stage from the sixth head, with the Roman Empire. Jerusalem, on the other hand, existed and had influence since Babylon, and even before. Moreover, Jerusalem has always killed prophets from Babylon to the Roman Empire and even before. Rome did not.

In my opinion, these three points clearly disqualify Rome as Babylon. It can only be Jerusalem. Remember that through the Acts of the Apostles it is known that the Jews were the first to persecute the Church. They are called enemies of God in the NT and Jesus in Revelation calls their synagogues "synagogues of the devil".

Preface, I am not a partial preterist. I believe that the destruction of Babylon does not refer to the event in 70 AD. There will be a third and final destruction of Jerusalem.

Anyone who thinks I am wrong or would like to add something is welcome to do so.
 

HTacianas

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I believe it's Jerusalem, because...

1. Babylon is the city where the Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8)
2. Babylon killed all Prophets and Saints (Revelation 18:24); same did Jesus say about Jerusalem (Matthew 23:30-37).
3. Babylon is the city which was on the beast with the seven heads. The seven heads which are symbolical described mountains aren't literal mountains, they represent Kingdoms. The first six Kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic, Seleucid and Roman Empire. That Babylon was on the heads means it existed in their times and had influence. Rome only entered the world stage from the sixth head, with the Roman Empire. Jerusalem, on the other hand, existed and had influence since Babylon, and even before. Moreover, Jerusalem has always killed prophets from Babylon to the Roman Empire and even before. Rome did not.

In my opinion, these three points clearly disqualify Rome as Babylon. It can only be Jerusalem. Remember that through the Acts of the Apostles it is known that the Jews were the first to persecute the Church. They are called enemies of God in the NT and Jesus in Revelation calls their synagogues "synagogues of the devil".

Preface, I am not a partial preterist. I believe that the destruction of Babylon does not refer to the event in 70 AD. There will be a third and final destruction of Jerusalem.

Anyone who thinks I am wrong or would like to add something is welcome to do so.

You see the same warning here:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

As here:

Luk 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Luk 21:21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Jerusalem was in fact surrounded by armies and burned with fire. Suffered five months of men seeking death but could not find it, abominations of desolation, the list goes on and on.
 
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d taylor

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Rome.

And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

At the writing of this in Revelation, there was only one city who reigns over the kings of the earth. That city was Rome
 
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HTacianas

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Rome.

And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

At the writing of this in Revelation, there was only one city who reigns over the kings of the earth. That city was Rome

If you study the history of the relationship between Rome and Jerusalem you'll see what the writer means. There were large numbers of Jews who were prominent in Roman society at the time. Even King Herod was an ally of Rome. The Jewish influence on Rome was so great that Jews had an exemption from worship of the Emperor as well as worship of the Roman gods.

Notice the description of the woman:

Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

The beast has seven heads and ten horns, not the woman. The woman is riding the beast, attempting to control it. But in the end the beast turns on her and destroys her.
 
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iamlamad

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I believe it's Jerusalem, because...

1. Babylon is the city where the Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8)
2. Babylon killed all Prophets and Saints (Revelation 18:24); same did Jesus say about Jerusalem (Matthew 23:30-37).
3. Babylon is the city which was on the beast with the seven heads. The seven heads which are symbolical described mountains aren't literal mountains, they represent Kingdoms. The first six Kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic, Seleucid and Roman Empire. That Babylon was on the heads means it existed in their times and had influence. Rome only entered the world stage from the sixth head, with the Roman Empire. Jerusalem, on the other hand, existed and had influence since Babylon, and even before. Moreover, Jerusalem has always killed prophets from Babylon to the Roman Empire and even before. Rome did not.

In my opinion, these three points clearly disqualify Rome as Babylon. It can only be Jerusalem. Remember that through the Acts of the Apostles it is known that the Jews were the first to persecute the Church. They are called enemies of God in the NT and Jesus in Revelation calls their synagogues "synagogues of the devil".

Preface, I am not a partial preterist. I believe that the destruction of Babylon does not refer to the event in 70 AD. There will be a third and final destruction of Jerusalem.

Anyone who thinks I am wrong or would like to add something is welcome to do so.
I agree: Babylon is Jerusalem - but only while the Beast will have made that city his headquarters for 42 months and from there will deceive the entire world.
 
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Saint JOHN

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ROME !!!

beast dead ( Roman Empire ) and is alive ( HOLY !!?? Roman Empire )

7 heads (hills of Rome rev 17v9) 10 Horns\crowns (kings and kingdoms under HER rule).

Rev18v4 ..Come out of her, my people(true christians see Mark 16v16,17+), that ye be not partakers of her sins,..

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Mother (church) of harlots ( other similar types)..killed and tortured many true Christians..

inquisition anyone !?
 
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d taylor

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RandyPNW

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I believe it's Jerusalem, because...

1. Babylon is the city where the Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8)

Where do you see "Babylon" in this verse? It may apply to Jerusalem, but how is this Babylon?

2. Babylon killed all Prophets and Saints (Revelation 18:24); same did Jesus say about Jerusalem (Matthew 23:30-37).

Rome killed the Prophets and Saints.

3. Babylon is the city which was on the beast with the seven heads. The seven heads which are symbolical described mountains aren't literal mountains, they represent Kingdoms.

The 7 Kings who follow the Antichrist are used also by John as symbols of the city Rome. They becomes symbols of things that cryptically suggest Rome, since John could not spell out that he was speaking of Rome. "Babylon" becomes, for John, a symbol of Rome, who had imprisoned him.

And so, his 1st cryptogram turns the 7 Kings into representations of 7 Mountains. And John's readers understood that Rome was a city known as having 7 mountains. Christians, who knew the book of Daniel, would understand that John was speaking of the 4th Beast Rome, having descended from the head, Babylon.

The first six Kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic, Seleucid and Roman Empire.

I suppose that's one possibility. What I've heard is that the 7 Kings, in John's 2nd cryptogram, is that they became representations of the 7 kingdoms in Israel's history, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, which was the current Kingdom in John's time. This also identified Rome as "Mystery Babylon." The 7th Kingdom would be the modern restored Roman Empire, which Antichrist would come to dominate.

That Babylon was on the heads means it existed in their times and had influence. Rome only entered the world stage from the sixth head, with the Roman Empire. Jerusalem, on the other hand, existed and had influence since Babylon, and even before. Moreover, Jerusalem has always killed prophets from Babylon to the Roman Empire and even before. Rome did not.

Jerusalem did not kill many of the apostles--Rome likely killed Peter and Paul, and certainly presided over Jesus' death, as well.
 
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Emun

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I don't understand how some people can believe that the seven mountains literally mean seven mountains. Just read the same verse completely. The angel gives us the interpretation and explains that the seven mountains represent seven kings (Revelation 17:9-10). This is metaphorical language. The beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns is meant to show the four beasts (and the statue) from the book of Daniel as one. The first beast (lion/gold) from Daniel has 1 head, the second beast (bear/silver) has 1 head, the third beast (leopard/bronze) has 4 heads and the fourth beast has 1 head and 10 horns. Taken together, the beasts have 7 heads and 10 horns. Daniel helps us and explains that the first head is the Babylonian Empire (Daniel 2:38). The angel of Revelation tells us that five of the heads have already fallen and that the sixth head existed at the time Revelation was written. The sixth head must therefore be the Roman Empire. So the first head is Babylon and the sixth is Rome. And we know the four heads between Babylon and Rome have already fallen. With these clues it is now very easy for us to find out who the four heads are. The kingdoms that ruled over Israel chronologically between these two kingdoms are Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic and Seleucid.

Those who claim that Rome is both Babylon the Great and also one of the heads are in contradiction. Scripture distinguishes the heads between the woman who sits on the heads. The woman cannot be one of the heads. The woman must be a city that is not one of the heads. @RandyPNW @d taylor @Saint JOHN
 
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d taylor

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I don't understand how some people can believe that the seven mountains literally mean seven mountains. Just read the same verse completely. The angel gives us the interpretation and explains that the seven mountains represent seven kings (Revelation 17:9-10). This is metaphorical language. The beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns is meant to show the four beasts (and the statue) from the book of Daniel as one. The first beast (lion/gold) from Daniel has 1 head, the second beast (bear/silver) has 1 head, the third beast (leopard/bronze) has 4 heads and the fourth beast has 1 head and 10 horns. Taken together, the beasts have 7 heads and 10 horns. Daniel helps us and explains that the first head is the Babylonian Empire (Daniel 2:38). The angel of Revelation tells us that five of the heads have already fallen and that the sixth head existed at the time Revelation was written. The sixth head must therefore be the Roman Empire. So the first head is Babylon and the sixth is Rome. And we know the four heads between Babylon and Rome have already fallen. With these clues it is now very easy for us to find out who the four heads are. The kingdoms that ruled over Israel chronologically between these two kingdoms are Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic and Seleucid.

Those who claim that Rome is both Babylon the Great and also one of the heads are in contradiction. Scripture distinguishes the heads between the woman who sits on the heads. The woman cannot be one of the heads. The woman must be a city that is not one of the heads. @RandyPNW @d taylor @Saint JOHN

Really i think you need to read closer.

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
 
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Emun

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Where do you see "Babylon" in this verse? It may apply to Jerusalem, but how is this Babylon?
Throughout the book of Revelation, the name "the great city" is always applied to Babylon. I consider the context of this book.
Rome killed the Prophets and Saints.
Rome didn't kill the prophets of the Old Testament. It was Jerusalem. Jesus said: "It is impossible for a prophet to be killed outside Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33). He wanted to illustrate that many prophets had already been killed by the Jews. He also said that they are guilty of the blood of all righteous men ever killed on earth. Even for the death of Abel they are declared guilty. These are Jesus' words. The same is said about Babylon the Great.
Jerusalem did not kill many of the apostles
The Bible does not report any death of the apostles by the Romans, but according to Acts the Jews killed and persecuted the Christians in Jerusalem. They were even fanatical enough to persecute Christians abroad. Jesus already prophesied that Jerusalem would persecute and kill the Christians (Matthew 23:34).
and certainly presided over Jesus' death, as well.
Pilate wanted to free Jesus, the Jews wanted to kill him. They forced the Romans to kill Jesus according to the Gospel.
 
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Emun

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Really i think you need to read closer.

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
Other translations are more accurate:
ASV
and they are seven kings
AMP
and they are seven kings
NASB
and they are seven kings

"they" reffering to the mountains. They, the seven mountains, are seven Kings.
 
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Emun

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SabbathBlessings

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In Revelation/Daniel Jerusalem and Babylon are spiritual. Jerusalem represents God’s holy city- see Revelation 3:12, Revelation 21:2 and Babylon in represent false teachings.

The devil makes makes war against God’s law Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:17 and against God’s New Covenant and Christ’s Mediation Hebrews 8:12 Daniel 8. We are told to come out of Babylon which means false teachings that have been handed down to us. God has people in every church and wants us to come out of Babylon Revelation 18:4, Revelation 14 and worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 end time will be about worship do we worship God or worship the beast. Revelation 14 Those who worship God keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 the way God wrote His law, not what was changed that we are warned about Daniel 7:25.
 
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Emun

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In Revelation/Daniel Jerusalem and Babylon are spiritual.
What makes you think that Babylon the great is spiritual? The descriptions make it clear that it is a city.
Jerusalem represents God’s holy city- see Revelation 3:12, Revelation 21:2
God's holy city is New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven. But what happened to Old Jerusalem, the wordly Jerusalem?
and Babylon in represent false teachings.
Wordly Jerusalem is full of false teachings, full of blasphemy and full of the blood of prophets and saints.
The devil makes makes war against God’s law Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:17 and against God’s New Covenant and Christ’s Mediation Hebrews 8:12 Daniel 8. We are told to come out of Babylon which means false teachings that have been handed down to us. God has people in every church and wants us to come out of Babylon Revelation 18:4, Revelation 14 and worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 end time will be about worship do we worship God or worship the beast. Revelation 14 Those who worship God keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 the way God wrote His law, not what was changed that we are warned about Daniel 7:25.
Thinking the law is still valid isn't an orthodox teaching. But I see you are a member of SDA.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What makes you think that Babylon the great is spiritual? The descriptions make it clear that it is a city.

God's holy city is New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven. But what happened to Old Jerusalem, the wordly Jerusalem?

Wordly Jerusalem is full of false teachings, full of blasphamy and full of the blood of prophets and saints.

Thinking the law is still valid isn't an orthodox teaching. But I see you are a member of SDA.
Babylon points to Rome, but it represent the false teachings. A women in the Bible means church, the Harlot apostasy, the mother of the church and her daughters are the churches that came out of the mother church. History lines up with this all very nicely.

Jerusalem was destroyed and the veil torn, meaning there is no more earthy sanctuary. God administers from a Heavenly Sanctuary, not an earthy one.

God thinks His law is valid so thats the only teaching that matters. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15. Revelation 11:19

I’m short for time right now, but may update this post to add more scripture references.
 
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