Is the RFID Chip the Mark of the Beast?

[ByTheSpirit]

The most clear passage in all of scripture about the Lord's return and when it will be is in 2 Thes 2:1-4:

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Emphasis added by myself:

Paul very clearly states the day of the Lord is when Jesus returns and we are gathered together to Him. You know the famous pretrib passages (1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16-17) those apply here. We meet Jesus when He returns to the earth. When does that happen? Well Paul says that too! He gives two conditions that MUST come before Jesus will return:
1- the great rebellion against God must come (I believe that is happening now)
2- the man of lawlessness must appear (the Anti-Christ; soon to appear)
Now looking at what Jesus says about His return in Matthew 24-25 we see clearly what He meant when He said His return would be AFTER the tribulation and it would be during a time such as the days of Noah...

Those are indisputable facts of scripture! Unless of course you are married to a doctrine and blinded from biblical truth.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Thanks for the correction. There was a proposal in congress to tag soldiers and I got it in my head it was a done deal. I usually check my facts but didn't in this case. Thanks for the correction.

You're good.

 

[RDKirk]

What scripture tells us is HIGHLY debated!

Are you saying there's no room for the mark of the beast in pre-trib theology? IE, couldn't it be for those left behind?

Pets are routinely RFID tagged. I'm pretty sure you could tag everyone in the world in fairly short order. It'd be a 15 minute procedure at the doctor's office. Heck, they might soon be small enough to place with a syringe and it'd be as easy as getting a flu shot.

Peace

-CS

No, everyone in the world is not going to get tagged in the next 15 minutes. Even if there were a supreme dominant world dictator right now who could order it today, it would still take years to get everyone in the world tagged. I think you underestimate the size of the planet. Yes, it looks small on the Internet, but it's pretty darned large when you actually have to get to every physical location.

But we'd have to get to that supreme dictator even before then, and that's not going to happen by this afternoon, either.

Unless all these concepts are really more spiritual than physical...and have already occured. I tend in that direction--that the "mark" isn't a chip but a spiritual mark that people already wear.

 

[RDKirk]

Paul very clearly states the day of the Lord is when Jesus returns and we are gathered together to Him. You know the famous pretrib passages (1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16-17) those apply here. We meet Jesus when He returns to the earth. When does that happen? Well Paul says that too! He gives two conditions that MUST come before Jesus will return:
1- the great rebellion against God must come (I believe that is happening now)
2- the man of lawlessness must appear (the Anti-Christ; soon to appear)
Now looking at what Jesus says about His return in Matthew 24-25 we see clearly what He meant when He said His return would be AFTER the tribulation and it would be during a time such as the days of Noah...

Those are indisputable facts of scripture! Unless of course you are married to a doctrine and blinded from biblical truth.

But Paul and everyone else in the first century believed those events had already happened even then. They could point to persons and events in their own time that fit the bill. They believed the return of Christ was imminent in their own time.

So if even the persons who heard Christ speak of His return from His own lips were in error...you're necessarily correct?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Thanks for the correction. There was a proposal in congress to tag soldiers and I got it in my head it was a done deal. I usually check my facts but didn't in this case. Thanks for the correction.

I've read pre trib and post trib arguments and personally think the post-tribbers have a stronger case. But many of the prophetic texts are full of images prosaic descriptions. I personally don't see a 100% definitive case either way and I really don't see that it matters. If Jesus returns pre-trib is he going to reject post-trib believers just because they're surprised he got here so soon? IMO, the answer is, of course not!

Peace,

-CS

You are absolutely correct! But I do think He would like us to know the truth either way. Both views cant be right but as you state quite accurately Jesus will not leave posttribbers on earth if He does come pretrib (He wont though )

 

[ByTheSpirit]

But Paul and everyone else in the first century believed those events had already happened even then. They could point to persons and events in their own time that fit the bill. They believed the return of Christ was imminent in their own time.

So if even the persons who heard Christ speak of His return from His own lips were in error...you're necessarily correct?

You are right in a sense, Paul did say they waited for the Lord's return as if he expected it during his lifetime. But, the passage I referenced he clearly speaks as if those events were yet in the future, thus the need to wait. We still must wait...

 

[Christian Seasteader]

Those are indisputable facts of scripture!

I've been a Christian a long time and believe me, these are among the most disputed verses in the Bible.

 

[Christian Seasteader]

I tend in that direction (all these concepts are really more spiritual than physical)--that the "mark" isn't a chip but a spiritual mark that people already wear.

Never heard that before. How does the buying and selling thing work with a spiritual mark?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I've been a Christian a long time and believe me, these are among the most disputed verses in the Bible.

Perhaps I used poor vocabulary, I meant they are clear and shouldn't be disputed. Isn't it amazing though that the early church all understood these things and there were no divisions in doctrine. The only remnant of the early church left is the RCC. They believe post tribation if I am not mistaken. Not saying they are right on most doctrines but interesting on that one.

 

[Christian Seasteader]

I've been a Christian a long time and believe me, these are among the most disputed verses in the Bible.

Perhaps I used poor vocabulary, I meant they are clear and shouldn't be disputed. Isn't it amazing though that the early church all understood these things and there were no divisions in doctrine.

I'm sure they're clear to you. My point is that they're not clear to everyone. This is one of the biggest and most contentious debates in the church.

The early church disputed circumcision, eating of meat and the role of women. And very little of church life is recorded in the Bible. I bet they had tons of disputes. Just like we do today!

Peace,

-CS

 

[Christian Seasteader]

The only remnant of the early church left is the RCC.

The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church split in the 11th century. Up until then they were a single church and both trace their roots back to Pentecost and the original apostles. Of all the folks who call themselves 'Christian', these are still the two biggest churches in the world.

Peace,

-CS

 

[RDKirk]

Perhaps I used poor vocabulary, I meant they are clear and shouldn't be disputed. Isn't it amazing though that the early church all understood these things and there were no divisions in doctrine. The only remnant of the early church left is the RCC. They believe post tribation if I am not mistaken. Not saying they are right on most doctrines but interesting on that one.

Actually, there were differences in eschatological doctrine by at least 140 AD, but they did not allow those to divide the Body of Christ because they're not salvational issues.

This is what Justin Martyr had to say about those differences in his Dialogue with Trypho:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

 

[RDKirk]

Never heard that before. How does the buying and selling thing work with a spiritual mark?

"Buying and selling" means "doing business." Chrisitans were severely hampered from "doing business" even by the end of the first century (having your property confiscated by the government can do that to you).

It also does not necessitate an abosolutely universal situation. When Jesus was born, scripture says "All Jerusalem was troubled." Yet, it also records two people at the temple who were awaiting His birth, and arguably most people in Jerusalem were utterly oblivious of the vent. So even when scripture explicitly says "all," it doesn't necessarily mean it in the literal sense.

Very much less when the writer starts out with a warning that he was "in the Spirit."

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Actually, there were differences in eschatological doctrine by at least 140 AD, but they did not allow those to divide the Body of Christ because they're not salvational issues.

This is what Justin Martyr had to say about those differences in his Dialogue with Trypho:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

I was referencing the church in Peter and Paul's day, but did not specify other than saying the early church so I apologize. I doubt I made an entirely accurate statement by saying there were no differences. I am sure there were, but the Apostles, from my view were in full agreement on the subject.

 

[Christian Seasteader]

Rev 13:16-17a It (the second beast) also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark

Originally Posted by Christian Seasteader

Never heard that before. How does the buying and selling thing work with a spiritual mark?​

"Buying and selling" means "doing business." Chrisitans were severely hampered from "doing business" even by the end of the first century (having your property confiscated by the government can do that to you).... when scripture explicitly says "all," it doesn't necessarily mean it in the literal sense.

The modifiers of "great and small, rich and poor, free and slave" sure tells me the author was going out of his way to say that 'all' means 'all'. IMO It wouldn't be that difficult to tag everyone in the world. It'd be pretty easy. You wouldn't need doctors. Once you mass-manufactured the 7-8 billion chips and dispencers, the RFID tags could be encoded and inserted by medical assistants, nurses, even trained nursing assistants. You could easily tag everyone in the world in a matter of months. Not even years.

I still don't get how this spiritual mark would be used in buying and selling.

Peace,

-CS

 

[Omena]

It also does not necessitate an abosolutely universal situation. When Jesus was born, scripture says "All Jerusalem was troubled." Yet, it also records two people at the temple who were awaiting His birth, and arguably most people in Jerusalem were utterly oblivious of the vent. So even when scripture explicitly says "all," it doesn't necessarily mean it in the literal sense.

The picture I see when I read the Revelation is one of total global control by the anti-Christ. It's possible there may be isolated people or tribes who are relatively untouched by the long arm of the anti-Christ, but overall I think most people living in the modern world will be affected by the mark of the beast in one way or another. It will be the beast's government, and he will actually be worshiped. We only need to look at the effect that Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot had on society to get an idea for what one man can be capable of (let alone a man who is inhabited by the spirit of Satan).

So I personally won't be holding onto the idea that I might be one of the lucky few who is just overlooked by the beast system (especially if I'm refusing to worship the beast or accept his mark). I think it would be wise for us to prepare to be persecuted, like Jesus said we would, and which is communicated in the Revelation.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

There is still NO WAY the "mark" is going to be some sneaky squirrel operation in which people will be duped into getting it. You WILL know what it is when the time comes and you WILL have to choose, take it or don't. By that choice of will, a person will be jusged by scriptures...

It will not be something they slip into a needle that they claim to be something else like a regualr shot, then boom you have the mark without knowing it. God says plainly those who take the mark will be closed off forever, there is no repentance from it because they choose to follow satan and reject God.

 

[RDKirk]

The modifiers of "great and small, rich and poor, free and slave" sure tells me the author was going out of his way to say that 'all' means 'all'. IMO It wouldn't be that difficult to tag everyone in the world. It'd be pretty easy. You wouldn't need doctors. Once you mass-manufactured the 7-8 billion chips and dispencers, the RFID tags could be encoded and inserted by medical assistants, nurses, even trained nursing assistants. You could easily tag everyone in the world in a matter of months. Not even years.

I still don't get how this spiritual mark would be used in buying and selling.

Peace,

-CS

Have you been involved in even getting trained nursing assistants out to many regions of South America, Africa, and Asia? It would still take years even with a powerful world dictator who had nothing else to do with his resources.

And we don't have a powerful world dictator, not now and it can't happen overnight.

 

[Alithis]

Originally Posted by BryanN84
The only remnant of the early church left is the RCC.

The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church split in the 11th century. Up until then they were a single church and both trace their roots back to Pentecost and the original apostles. Of all the folks who call themselves 'Christian', these are still the two biggest churches in the world.

Peace,

-CS

neither are correct the rcc came along hundreds of years after the church outlined in the book of acts and has been consistently guilty of murdering those who would not submit to its popes and its idolatry in Mary worship.
it has never been a part of the original Church which is built by the Holy Spirit . Not man. being the biggest is not an endorsement -- wide is the way that leads to destruction,,

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Originally Posted by BryanN84
The only remnant of the early church left is the RCC.



neither are correct the rcc came along hundreds of years after the church outlined in the book of acts and has been consistently guilty of murdering those who would not submit to its popes and its idolatry in Mary worship.
it has never been a part of the original Church which is built by the Holy Spirit . Not man. being the biggest is not an endorsement -- wide is the way that leads to destruction,,

Well I understand as an official entity the RCC didn't come into "power" jntil the 5-6th century but they do trace their lineage back to Peter in Rome so I think it is safe to assume they were organized then.