• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Is it possible to keep the 10 commandments?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by zoidar, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

    +1,792
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    It was a joke. Did not know you were married. Sorry
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Apology accepted.
    May God's love shine upon you today.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    But how does one know they are being led by the Spirit vs. their own way of thinking?
    This is why you need to follow the commands in the New Testament Scriptures.
    These Scriptures were written by men of God under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
    They are your instructions on what to do.
    Not desiring to obey them is kind of like rebelling against God - IMO.
    Unless of course one does not believe the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God or something. I sure hope that is not the case.
     
  4. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

    +1,705
    Christian
    Married
    Not an accurate analogy. A more accurate Biblical analogy of the [fish], if you want, is that the [fish] are already dead [Ephesian 2]. And they do not want to be saved because they are already dead. And the [fish] actually hate, though they are dead, hate the one who created them. It is also an appeal to emotions rather than Biblical truth.

    Man is not morally neutral.


    Man is not God.
    God has the sovereign right to do with His creation as He so choose and no one can judge Him.
    God does not save just one person. The number of people God save is countless.

    Also by the expansion of your logic, every day we choose to not murder billions of people on the planet by not doing something towards those other human beings. Are you saying that is a choice? Is that rational?
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Here is a really great article that explains some of the points you brought up.

    Is the Sabbath Required for Christians Today? | Grace Communion International
     
  6. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

    +2,558
    Catholic
    Married
    Have you ever had an experience given by God's Spirit? I know that you cannot believe in Jesus through your own thinking so you and many have had the Spirit of God moving within you. That Spirit which revealed Jesus to you can also reveal many other things if we take the time to meditate through prayer, with God.
    Abraham didn't need any scriptures to know what to do. Why can't we? The Jews all had the scriptures but they, for the most part, couldn't understand them. They couldn't see Jesus in the scriptures they read.
    Yes and we must rely on that same Holy Spirit to guide us into their truth.
    My point is not about not being obedient to what is written. It has been about the proper way to be obedient to them. 2 Cor. 3 tells us about the New Covenant which is written in our hearts and not on stone or paper. All of God's children know how to love, even though they may not have made that connection between their conscience and the Holy Spirit.
    As much as I have written about God's Holy Spirit and the need to surrender to it, I would hope that you knew the love that I have for scripture.

    God Bless,
     
  7. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Yes, Gnosticism, but the Nicolaitans in particular.

    Well, that will be up to God, but I wouldn't count on it myself. Paul made it clear that those who willfully sin when you no longer have to, and as John says, walks in it, are a slave to sin and Satan.

    You don't have to deny God or His Spirit, even the demons believe and tremble. And the Nicolaitans certainly believed, but twisted it, making the grace of God into licentiousness.

    Well, I certainly wouldn't throw away an NASB - my mistake. It is generally a good translation. But it is unfortunate they translated this to merely "practice." Like many in the Church, you seem to believe a Christian can willfully sin and be saved, even though you had agreed 1 John 1:8 was not about a Christian. So, now I'm confused again as you go back and forth. Maybe this will help you see my understanding.

    Since Adam sinned throwing all mankind into sin - "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (same as 1 John 1:8) But if we repent unto Jesus (as in 1 John 1:9) all our sin is taken away and we are cleansed of all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 is not a stand-alone. It is in context with verse 8, and thus verses 6 and 10 also. It should be read thus, and like you I know many versions. I like the Good News Translation:

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing.

    So if we are cleansed of all sin, are we still a sinner?

    You are right, chapters 1 and chapter 3 do not contradict. But you lean towards "a Christian sins" (1 John 1:8), as do many so-called scholars, and I go towards "a Christian cannot sin" (1 John 3:9), a minority. There is no contradiction. Merely a disagreement as to if 1 John 1:8 describes a true Christian, and not someone who still walks in darkness before Christ and still needs to repent to be cleansed of all their past sins.

    Maybe, the problem lies in, is John including unintentional sin in 1 John 3:9, which I see in 1 John 1:7 as automatically being cleansed even as we walk in the Spirit, or only willful presumptuous sin, which in the old covenant was not covered by a sacrifice. The belief of, 'isn't all sin willful,' doesn't take into account how God views sin. There are two categories. "Unto death" and "not unto death." "Willful" and "Unintentional." Willful sin is likened unto rebellion and therefore, witchcraft. This a Christian with God's Spirit in him cannot do.

    That is 1 John 1:9, not 1 John 3:9.

    As I said, this is unfortunate, for many young Christians count on it to be holy only part of the time, and when they are not, they can say, "well at least most of the time I do not "practice" this sin. No! They shouldn't be doing it at all when they've been given the power to overcome. God will not be mocked.

    Okay, I agreed up until you said IOW. Then I felt you saying the problem of truth was regarding sin of the flesh not affecting their spirit, when it would. As opposed to them willfully sinning in the flesh on purpose to gain more grace.

    The Nicolaitans believed that Jesus did not come in the flesh, only Spirit, so only sins of our spirit were sin, but, say, fornication or adultery of the body was NOT SIN as it only affected our body, not our spirit. Their twisted theology said they could say they "do not sin." Paul encountered them too. "Should we sin so grace may abound?" They would actually give each other's wives to the other men to be raped by them. And this must be done daily so grace would abound!

    As Jude said, that is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. Yikes!
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    The law could not make a person righteous. It was lacking. They are only moral bottom-line commandments.

    So, you haven't murdered anyone today; but have you hated someone?

    So, you haven't committed adultery; have you lusted?

    The commandments covered outward sin, but left the iniquity in the heart. Jesus took away that iniquity deep inside where our desires lie, removing our old carnal nature and replacing it with His own.
     
  9. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,617
    Italy
    Christian
    Married
    Late here and I'm tired. Will get back to you tomorrow morning.
    Just want to say that I see where we differ from the above.
    You say the carnal nature, or sin nature, has been removed and replaced with His own.
    I believe we still have the sin nature but it is kept under submission.
    Tomorrow...
     
  10. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +669
    Calvinist
    Married
    To the person who started this conversation.
     
  11. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +763
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I didn't know you asked me. Why don't you respond to both? I was thinking after.
     
  12. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Here is one for you to ponder for tomorrow: Romans 8:1-9 This is not a contrast between a weak Christian and a strong Christian. It is about a non-believer still in sin, and a Christian who does not sin. Pleasant dreams. May His Spirit speak to you in the night. (That's what He does to me...)

    8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    "Condemning sin in the flesh," is why I say the power of Christ's Spirit removes our carnal nature that cannot please God because of its evil desires. Otherwise, what is the difference in actions between a Jewish expert of the law with a carnal nature, and a Christian with a carnal nature? This is why Jesus came - to put an end to sin in us, not to just cover our sin while we keep committing them. (Daniel 9:24; 1 John 3:5). I remember being a very carnal Christian, not even knowing I wasn't saved. That is what scares me for today's Church at large. It was 30 years before I actually repented from the heart, recognized my willpower wasn't cutting it, and Jesus baptizing me with His Holy Spirit. Wow! What a difference overnight! All desire to sin willfully vanished immediately. Poof!


    If you haven't read my testimony, I'd be happy to send it to you in private conversation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  13. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +669
    Calvinist
    Married
    Thank you for your response. All I can do here, is share what I believe and why I believe. And out of curiosity. Why are you thinking after?
     
  14. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    +1,947
    Christian
    Sure they added their traditions. But no one human can keep the law. To keep means without failure the whole law. In acts Steven tells the Jews the law was given by angels and none of them kept the law, which infuriated them. See their rage showed they were just flesh and not filled with God's Spirit
     
  15. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +763
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I think people who are physically living can't be compared to something that is physically dead. Of course I understand that you mean people are spiritually dead. But no dead fish can suffer eternally.

    If you have control of the button to launch a nuke that will kill billions of people, both not pushing the button or pushing the button is a choice.

    Of course God can do as He wish, but the bible says that God is LOVE, that He is MERCYFUL and GOOD. I don't think the character of God fits the Calvinist view.
     
  16. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +763
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I think I agree, if we mean the same thing. When our old carnal nature is abated (I hope I use the right word) by the Holy Spirit, we are enabled keep his commandments. It's not that our old nature is covered over and we are counted as righteous even we sin and live like everyone else. It's that our nature is changed and we now can live righteous lives.
     
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    +1,947
    Christian
    Getting back to the law of commandments and ordinances,
    Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes
    The law could not make you righteous, but faith can and does make someone righteous in God's eyes.
    Even under the OC, it was about faith, and not works of the law which gave life to the people, which Paul referenced for the Old Testament here.

    Habakkuk 2:4
    “Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.

    Romans 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

    The Just Live by Faith
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel [a]of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”


    Romans 10:3-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
    3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
     
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +763
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    Because I believe that when we are born again thought the Holy Spirit we are enabled to keep the law. Is it possible to love Jesus more than even your own family without being born again? Hardly! How can you break the power of sin without the Holy Spirit and even more so serving Jesus without knowing him?
     
  19. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +763
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    Thanks for sharing!

    In Romans 10, I think the law means the whole Mosaic Law. Paul is talking about how to be saved, and not what applies to a person that is saved. We can read about that in other places (like Romans 8 and of course James 2). What does it mean to live by faith? A saved person is not to keep the Mosaic Law, but is to live a righteous life and not live in sin. If a person doesn't keep the commandments, doesn't that mean he/she livs in sin?

    Romans 8
    3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


    13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.



     
  20. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,590
    Non-Denom
    I concur. Rom 11:32.

    bugkiller
     
Loading...