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Featured Is it correct to say, "One aspect of the Bible is that it is like a rule book"?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Discipline is to correct a person to stop sinning. When I talk with Eternal Security proponents, overcoming grievous sin in this life is an impossibility according to them.

    So what would be the purpose of chastening then?

    That would be like yelling and lightly smacking a dog for pooping on the carpet even while knowing that the poor animal has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick.

    But Jesus came to heal men of their sickness. For he said he is a physician. He came to heal men of their state of being stuck their sins. Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh. Most want the forgiveness part, but many never take steps to live for Christ after that.
     
  2. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Unbelievers who have not accepted Christ believe that. Most who believe in Jesus today think you can sin and still be saved on some level. That does not sound like the narrow gate path to me. I believe God's grace is how we are initially and ultimately saved. If a believer stumbles into a sin on occasion in his early walk of his faith before he matures and overcomes grievous sin in this life, does he go out and do a good work to be cleansed or forgiven of it? No. He goes to God's grace by confessing it to the Lord Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But after we are saved by God's grace, God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness (See 1 Thessalonians 4:7). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). The Scriptures say: Be not deceived, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7); And he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). God's grace is a means to overcome sin and not as a license to sin on any level. But if we declare "Once Saved Always Saved" then there is going to be some kind of sin and still be saved stuff going on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  3. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When used as a schoolmaster to lead to Christ, yes. When taken beyond that, it is only used as a rulebook wrongly.
     
  4. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's more to the Bible than just being a set of authoritative instructions from God. It contains other forms of literature. http://bibleresources.americanbible.org/resource/different-kinds-of-literature-in-the-bible
     
  5. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Can you give three examples of when God discliplinEd you specifically to get you to stop sinning?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  6. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

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    That may be a by-product of discipline. But the sole purpose of discipline is to get the believer back on track and in His will again.
    And another aspect of our sin nature is EVIL. Or......self-justification/self-righteousness/human good. Something the loss of salvation crowd always overlooks.

    That is so simple to do........Get back in fellowship. Sin overcome!
    When I talk with the loss of salvation crowd it is impossible to show them that they are operating from the self-righteous side of their flesh and are quenching the Spirit with human good.....arguably they are in a worse spot than the believer who is stuck in overt sin.

    To get believers back into His plan for them and His will.

    Here is what the loss of salvation crowd does:

    Gods divine plan is for the dog to go outside and poop, but the dog decides to do it it's own way and poops in the cat box and looks at it's master thinking," I did so good!"


    Being stuck in their SIN. Singular. The flesh,the sin nature.......the flip side to sinning in the flesh is the flesh is also SELF-RIGHTEOUS.
    And I agree, I have seen very very few believers who know how to live the Christian way of life. Most think it is try your level best to stop sinning. And end up living in the self-righteous side of their flesh and their human good.
     
  7. Pastor Jay Randolph

    Pastor Jay Randolph Pastor Jay Randolph

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    It is a history book for the lost, and an instruction book for the saved. The message to the world is the Good News of Jesus, to those saved, it is a book of instruction so that we may have a better life
     
  8. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    Jason I think you and the OSAS folks have a common misunderstanding of each other as we humans always seem to do. OSAS believers do not believe you can get saved and then go out and live like the devil and still go to heaven. There is commonality in your beliefs. It's not one or the other. It's both. The Bible teaches both thoughts. We as believers should be able to put the together, but we struggle with that.

    So, while the Bible teaches that we are sealed to the day of redemption we are also told by Jesus himself that not all who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom. Is it one or the other? No it's both.

    I know you believe the Bible does not contradict itself. And you are correct!

    OSAS folks often have difficulty with really explaining their thoughts on the matter. I have yet to find one that believes you can truly be saved and go out and live a sinful lifestyle.
     
  9. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Perhaps, you missed the second part where i wrote ... on how best to live one's life. Both the OT and NT (IMO) are by far the best authoritative literature in the world on how best to live one's life. However, even under grace some people are still rebellious (disobedient) to an authority figure (i.e. the LORD).

    However, in order to truly understand and follow the Bible's literary depth (including many allegories and parables) wouldn't you agree it helps if one is obedient, and even better yet if one is born again (1 Samuel 15:22, John 3:5, Titus 3:5).​
     
  10. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    I know you do not believe that you can be saved and go out and live like the devil. Hebrews clearly teaches that. But you are also correct in understanding that we are saved through grace. And it is because of Christ's work in us that saves us, and not our own self righteousness. Because we ARE going to sin.

    The Bible IS a book that contains rules. The apostles say much in telling us that doing some things and behaving certain ways are sinful and if we do those things we will NOT inherit the kingdom.

    But it also teaches we are a new creation and we are not bound to sin and don't have to live in it. It tells us that Jesus blood cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. It tells us we are sealed until the day of redemption. The whole idea here is to walk in Christ, walk in repentance, walk in faith and LIVE for him. Is the totality of our life walked in obedience or disobedience? Yes we will sin, but do we repent and walk in the Spirit? If so, there is no issue.

    The Lord knows Jason and I do not agree. He believes that one sin committed causes us to lose our salvation. I don't believe that but I do believe the Bible teaches that if I continually sin, walk in it, I can walk away from God and salvation eventually.

    But I do recognize that in my flesh I cannot please God and his Spirit has sealed me, and its not about my own effort alone that I am saved. I have to work out my own salvation, but I do it through Christ, through faith, that he who has begun a good work in me will continue to do so until the final day.
     
  11. watchman 2

    watchman 2 Member

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    Your right Jason, there is an action that must be taken towards God to start the Salvation journey. But it's not Obedience.
     
  12. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    When I look at the first century church I see congregations that were full of division and factions (1 Corinthians 1). I see congregations that tolerated sexual immorality in their midst (1 Corinthians 5). I see congregations who had problems with people getting drunk during communion (1 Corinthians 11). I see congregations who were in danger of denying the gospel (Galatians 1:6). I see congregations who had abandoned their first love (Revelation 2:5), congregations who tolerated sexually immoral prophetesses in their midst (Revelation 2:20), congregations that were mostly dead and only had a few sparks of life within them (Revelation 3:1-2), and congregations that were repulsive to the Lord and he was about to spit them out of his mouth (Revelation 3:15-16).

    And yet these were churches of Jesus Christ. These were the lamp stands in the midst of which he walked. There was no other church in Corinth than the messed up one. There was no other church in Laodicea than the lukewarm one. The church is messed up, but Jesus is in the midst of it.

    You need to repent, friend. Jesus only came to save sinners. Unless you recognize yourself as a helpless sinner in need of his salvation then you will by no means be saved.
     
  13. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    The problem is that some OSAS Believers (due in part to seeker-sensitive preaching) have unfortunately acquired a misunderstanding of the saying: "Past, present and future sins are already forgiven"

    If they really believe their future sins are already forgiven (even before they are committed) then what incentive is it for them to stop practicing certain sins or [GOD Forbid] even repent of their continual sins if they believe they are already forgiven before being committed ???
     
  14. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    One must be obedient to the Word of GOD. And who is the Word of GOD (John 1:1-14). If one is a true Believer in GOD (as was Abraham), then GOD counted Abraham's obedience to His Word as "righteousness". It's the same under the New Covenant that those that choose to "follow" the LORD are obedient and thus not self-righteous. They are only righteous in the eyes of GOD being Christ-like having been born again (Titus 3:5).
     
  15. watchman 2

    watchman 2 Member

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    Your incorrect .
    Abrahams object of Faith was God Himself, not His promises. This is even used as the example in the Vines definition of pisteuo. The only obedience that matters is the obedience that comes as the result of the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Any obedient acts fulfilled to receive the Spirit of Christ are worthless.
     
  16. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What about the indwelling Holy Spirit that convicts God’s Children of sin and leads them in truth?

    The issue as I see it, can be lack of faith by the camp that thinks salvation can be lost.

    They give all sorts of excuses like the believer probably never was saved to begin with, but that puts all the own-ness on the believer, but isn’t God the orchestrator of a His will and isn’t the Holy Spirit God and doesn’t Christ say that if one sheep strays, that Jesus leaves the 99 and goes after the one.

    What I think is the position that salvation can be lost is a lack of faith in God and His power.
     
  17. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

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    As a matter of fact, I say the majority of believers are living like satan. They have no idea how to live the Christian way of life(darn pastors/teachers) so they revert to self-righteousness or 'acting as servants of righteousness' rather than LIVING the spiritual life.

    And.....He said that he gives believers eternal life and they will never perish. So they are still saved.


    Hebrews clearly teaches that there are believers who revert back to their own righteousness......and put Him to open shame. And believing or teaching loss of salvation on any level is the ultimate way to put Him to open shame.


    Correct.

    Correct.
    Correct.

    Incorrect. And you just negated all the correct points you made.
    John 10:28.......You have eternal life and will NEVER perish.

    The Bible teaches if a believer continually walk's in the desire of the flesh(sin or self righteousness) and not in the Spirit.....they will be disciplined(Hebrews), painfully if need be. And a host of other eternal consequences. It is just NEVER loss of salvation.
     
  18. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    According to Titus 2:11-12, God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God (with some included details) and to love your neighbor is what one must do to inherit eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28). Not helping the poor in this life can lead a believer to be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46). Looking upon a woman in lust can cause a person's body to be cast bodily into hell fire (See Matthew 5:29-31). Not loving your brother is the equivalent of being like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15). Not preaching the gospel is a salvation in this life is a salvation issue (See Luke 9:62). 1 John 3:10 says that he that does not righteousness is not of God. John 8:47 says he that is of God hears (obeys) God's Word (Also see James 1:21-27). Not forgiving another means you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Paul says,

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

    So in Galatians 3:24, what does Paul mean by his statement that the Law is a school master that brings us unto Christ? Was Paul talking about all forms of Law? Was Paul talking about how we do not need to obey the commands of Jesus as a part of everlasting life as Jesus said?

    Paul was referring to the 613 laws as a whole (not individual laws) or the entirety of the old contract, i.e. the Law of Moses.

    16 "That is how it is with the promises God made to Abraham and his descendant.The promises were not made to many descendants, but only to one, and that one is Christ.
    17 What I am saying is that the Law cannot change or cancel God’s promise that was made 430 years before the Law was given." (Galatians 3:16-17) (CEV).

    In other words, the promise made to Abraham about his descendants as being as numerous as the stars (Which is only possible by Jesus Christ, the "seed") came 430 years before the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses does not undo the previous promise made to Abraham. So the context here in Galatians 3:24 is the whole of the Law of Moses (i.e. the entirety of that whole covenant or contract; All 613 laws as a covenant given to Israel). Verse 25 says, "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:25). Does this mean that there was no faith in the Old Testament or Old Covenant? No. Romans 4:9 says, "...faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness." So this means that Galatians 3:25 is talking about "faith in Jesus Christ as a part of the New Covenant or New Testament" (that went into effect officially with his death upon the cross). The Law (i.e. the Old Law) was a school master to bring those unto faith in Christ during His earthly ministry and during the time His followers spread the good news of the gospel.

    Paul was fighting against the heresy of Law Alone Salvationism that did not include God's grace. People were trying to be circumcised FIRST in order to say that they were saved. They thought they had to go back and obey ALL of the laws of the Torah to be saved (When that was a covenant or contract that was no longer binding anymore as a whole).

    We see that this problem was addressed at the Jerusalem council. Please slowly and carefully read these verses:

    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”................................................................................................................................................................
    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

    Paul also addressed this problem, as well:

    1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

    2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

    3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

    4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

    5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

    6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

    7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

    8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

    9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

    So we can conclude that Paul was against going back to the whole of the Old Testament Law of Moses (and not individual moral laws) and he was against "Circumcision Salvationism." Paul was fighting against "Law Alone Salvationism." For if you say that you are saved FIRST by circumcision, then the foundation of your faith is not by coming to Jesus Christ it would be circumcision or Law Alone. This was not even a form of salvation even under the OT. Men were always saved by faith in the Messiah and then obedience to His commands followed from that point after. So yeah; You are taking Galatians 3:24 out of context to defend a sin and still be saved type belief. Salvation as taught by Free Grace teachers is not biblical. Salvation has always been "Faith + works of faith." Just read Hebrews 11. Works of faith had always followed a person having faith in God. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  19. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I personally don’t like that word “rules” I think it is better to use the word “commands”.
     
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    What you just said in your post is a double message.

    #1. On the one hand, you condemn various sinful practices of churches as if to suggest they may not be saved, and you defend righteous living as a part of salvation;

    #2. Yet, on the other hand, you say: "We are sinners saved by God's grace."​

    Again: What you teach is foreign to Scripture. Jesus called sinners to REPENTANCE. Jesus did not call sinners to remain as sinners. Jesus said He was a physician who came to heal the sick. This means that Jesus came to heal a person of their sinful condition in being a sinner so that they would overcome their sin (after they would seek forgiveness of their sin with him).

    Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh. For 1 John 3:8 says Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This would be the works of the devil (sin) in a believer's life.
     
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