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Featured Is it correct to say, "One aspect of the Bible is that it is like a rule book"?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As I and many others have shared with you your understanding and consistently misrepresenting OSAS after so, so many kind and very patient brothers and sisters have corrected you is completely false.

    You bring strife to the saints and body of Christ when so blatantly and inaccurately continue to misrepresent beliefs you cannot understand.

    Continually misrepresentating doctrine seems to be from lack of humility and understanding of how to study and understand God’s Word.
     
  2. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    I am starting to understand what you are saying now all along.

    We receive salvation freely by God's grace, but it can be taken away or lost? How many slip-ups are too much for God to give up on a person would you say?
     
  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    The Bible teaches that God can forgive us but we have to be genuine with God and we have to believe His Word that talks about how we can overcome grievous sin in this life. It takes time for believers to mature and overcome sin in some cases. If a person is not in agreement with God’s plan of Sanctification for their life and they make up their own rules on living holy and they justify sin in their life in some way, then they will not be forgiven because they are not willing to follow His instructions or His good ways to purify themselves.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
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  4. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The way he sees it is that God didn’t give us the best gift, but a gift that needs us to constantly buy and insert the batteries into the gift to keep it going.

    Like the Energizer Bunny.
     
  5. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Bible doesn’t teach that. That God CAN forgive us.

    The Bible teaches that God is fair, just and righteous and WILL forgive our sins if we repent.

    Come on now ...
     
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Many today think you can sin a little bit and still be saved while you commit a little bit of sin as long as you are striving to live holy. Yet, the problem is that many in the Belief Alone camp will also say that they can never overcome grievous sin in this life, too. While you and others may not see a problem with this line of thinking, I assure you God cannot agree with a person’s thinking that they can commit grievous sin and yet they would still be saved. For if such were the case, then God would have to agree with sin.
     
  7. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your stance is still not Biblical.
     
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Most churches today teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level. They say they are sinners saved by grace as if to imply they are still sinning and they will always sin. But Jesus says narrow is the way that leads to life and few be there that finds it.

    Jesus warned us a lot about sin and how it can destroy our souls in the afterlife. I find it hard to believe that He would radically change His belief on this stance or position after the Apostle Paul came on to the scene.
     
  9. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Have you chosen to totally forget or leave out repentance?

    Seems like you have.

    God does give us a way after a mistake of sin, to become fully forgiven and move forward in faith.

    His will for us is to be what He does to give us. That we OVERCOME our sin and move on to spiritual things.

    It is misrepresenting God’s entire plan for His Children to concentrate on sin without also sharing about repenting and God cleansing us of all of our unrighteousness.

    When and if we sin, was never the end for God’s Children. Contrary to some people’s understanding, God makes us more than conquerors.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  10. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    However, Eternal Security proponents generally teach that King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. This is teaching a license for immorality. This is teaching that one can continue to break God's laws and be in favor with God.
     
  11. Ing Bee

    Ing Bee Son of Encouragement Supporter

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    Hi there,
    I'm not sure what translation you're are looking at – only the ABPE and various KJVs use the idea of "commandments" in translating this passage.

    The greek phrase used there is "Μακάριοι (blessed) οἱ (those) πλύνοντες (washing) τὰς (the) στολὰς (robes).

    Here's how the ESV and all other translations render that passage:
    "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates."

    This phrase "washing their robes" appears one other time in Revelation, in Chapter 7 verse 14:

    "I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    From the context of the book, Revelation 22:14 is about personal trust in the atoning blood of Jesus to "wash your robes", not following commands or rules.

    To your main point however, there are definitely commands/rules in the Bible. However, it is not primarily or even secondarily a book of rules, just like it is not a book of moral heroes, (i.e. examples for us to follow). Treating the Bible like a rule book leds mainly to legalism and works-righteousness (see the Pharisees). However, I think you actually touched on a better way to think of the Bible.

    As you wrote in one of your comments above, the Bible is a history of God's relationship with humanity and His persistent, rescuing, covenant-keeping love. It's a record of Yahweh's personal, self-disclosure to humanity finally completed with the incarnation of the Son, His death, resurrection and kingdom. God's "rules" are descriptions of His character and of the conditions necessary to be in relationship with Him. As others have stated, God's rule cannot be followed by the spiritually dead, those who have not been born of the Spirit (John 3), they serve to show our need for grace and someone to keep the law perfectly on our behalf.

    To put it another way: the person who has not been made alive through the spirit cannot keep the laws and they become a burden and bring death; but for the person who is a "new creation" the "commands" of Christ are descriptions of His perfection that we are growing into.

    This is why the New Testament writers focus on the new life and its promises/benefits because of Jesus then describe how the new life "works". (Ephesians 1:1-14, Titus 3:3-7, Romans 6, 2 Peter 1:3-11).

    Maybe you are reacting to people who like to dismiss certain realities of the new life in Christ (e.g. sexual ethics) and turn freedom into license?

    So…
    Yes, lots of rules in the Bible.
    No the Bible is not a rulebook and should not be viewed or presented as such.
    Yes to it giving us a "rule" (i.e. straight line) to demarcate what we should expect in living the new, Jesus-life (Ephesians 4:20-24) as well as reminders of what "lawlessness" looks like.
    No to using the "rulebook" metaphor since without the relationship with the Son is primary (1 John 5:11-12)
    Yes, lots of commandments that have been completed and fulfilled in Christ
    But, the two great "commands" are really about a quality of relational love, when you look at them, not "rules" in the sense of "do" and "don't".

    When agape love is the defining characteristic of your life, you are walking in perfect relational step with Yahweh (1 John 4:8) and therefore there is no law (Galatians 5:15-26).

    It seems that on every level, the Bible is leading us to a Galatians 5:16 /26 reality so that we experience the fruit of vv22-23. With that understanding, the Bible (inspired and empowered by the Spirit of God) acts like a coach, a counselor, a teacher, etc. I would use those metaphors over "rulebook" for all the reasons above.
     
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  12. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus Himself says that He goes after the one lost sheep ( notice the word sheep, which is one of His Own) and leaves the 99 sheep to get the one lost.

    Read about David and explain why he was called but god a man after Gods Own heart.

    The problem with attacking a patriarch like King David is God is clear in the Bible about David.

    Going against God’s Word in the Bible is showing your own hand of who you think is right and who is wrong.

    Does God form our theology or does a person’s own thinking and view of what is righteous affect theology
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    The KJV (1769) is the divinely inspired Word of God for our day. While Modern Translations can be helpful in updating the 1600's English, they should not be our final word of authority. If you have ever read Gail Riplinger's book called "New Age Bible Versions," it would probably make you want to throw out your Modern Translations (Although I would not recommend doing so). I was aware of New Age Bible Versions when I first came to the faith back in 1992. Since that time, I have only discovered even more reasons that support that the KJV is divine in origin (Just as the Hebrew and Greek texts are divine in origin). In fact, I can prove biblically that the KJV is the pure Word of God for our day in several ways, but for the brevity of this post, I will just simply point out a few attacks that the ESV makes against the KJV (and or the Textus Receptus).

    In the ESV, 1 John 5:7 is missing. The ESV removes the one and only verse that clearly describes the Trinity.

    In 1 Timothy 3:16: The KJV says, God was manifest in the flesh. In the ESV, it replaces the word "God" with "He."

    In 1 John 4:3, the KJV correctly says, "every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God" Yet, the ESV says, "every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God" In other words, the ESV leaves out the part about how Jesus is come in the flesh as a part of test to see who is of God.

    The ESV says that Joseph is the father of Jesus.

    Luke 2:33 "And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him." KJV

    Luke 2:33 "And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him." ESV

    In 2 Corinthians 2:17, they replace "corrupt the word of God" with "peddlers of God's word".

    The ESV removes the word "study" in 2 Timothy 2:15 and substitutes it with the words "Do your best". In addition, they also remove the words "rightly dividing" and swap it for the words "rightly handling". If a person is to understand God's Word, they have to know how to rightly divide the word of truth.

    In Luke 4:4, the ESV removes the words "but by every word of God"; Please keep in mind that Jesus is referring to Deuteronomy 8:3.

    In Colossians 2:10, the ESV tells us Christians that we are not "complete" in Christ, but it just simply says, "filled," instead.

    In Romans 8:1, the ESV removes the words "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." In other words, in order to not be under the Condemnation you have to be in Christ Jesus AND you have to walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Daniel 3:25 says that the 4th in the fire with Daniel's three friends was one who is like the son of the gods, instead of saying "Son of God."

    Not true. One of the problems Jesus had with the Pharisees is that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Luke 11:42, Matthew 23:23).

    I don't think you understand. Nowhere am I proposing Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace or the new birth. The Pharisees believed in a form of Law Alone Salvationism and this is what Paul was arguing against in Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5. This is because certain Jews were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21. Also see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24) (Note: Please hover your cursor over these verses to check them out).

    But you cannot get around God's commands as being the most important thing for us in Scripture. Even believing on Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). Are you not under this law or command?

    Again, nowhere did I state that a person cannot be born again spiritually. But the new birth does not over ride our free will. We are also told to endure to the end to be saved.

    "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

    "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

    "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

    "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

    "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.

    Most versions of Eternal Security turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level.

    Some believe you can sin as much as you want and you can be saved. Some believe you should strive to live holy, but one or two unrepentant grievous sins will not keep a person out of God's kingdom.

    Let me ask you: Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? Most Eternal Security proponents I have talked with said... "yes."

    Not true. The Bible says,
    "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."
    (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

    Jesus says, "if you love me, keep my commandments."
    (John 14:15).

    Jesus says, "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    But living holy does not effect salvation in your book, right?
    What do you make of Hebrews 5:9, and 1 John 1:7?

    The way a person can have an assurance in them knowing the Lord is they find that they are keeping His commandments (See 1 John 2:3) (Also see John 15:10). For the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

    Actually, that is totally false.

    In the New Testament:

    Here are some "Do not's":
    1. Do not defraud (Mark 10:19).
    2. Do not be called masters: for one is your Teacher, even Christ. (Matthew 23:10).
    3. When you pray: Do not use vain repetitions (Matthew 6:7).
    4. Take heed that you do not give to the poor before other men so to be seen of them; (Matthew 6:1).
    5. Do not make any vows (Matthew 5:33).
    Here are some "Do's."

    1. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, the Samaritan had helped the half dead poor person on the side of the road, Jesus says, “Go, and do you likewise.” (See: Luke 10:29-37).
    2. Do good to them that hate you (Matthew 5:44).
    3. All things whatsoever you would desire for men should do to you, do you even so to them (Matthew 7:12).
    4. “This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19).
    5. Do that which is good (Romans 13:3).​

    The Spirit had written the Scriptures through men of God. So the commands in the New Testament (that Christians are to follow) come from the Spirit. If you are not seeking to obey the commands in the New Testament that come from the Spirit then you are not seeking to obey the Spirit.

    Yet, you also need to read Romans 8:3-4, too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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  14. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting to me that you quote Hebrews yet deny Hebrews. It's clearly written that we can turn away from God by a continuous walk in sin. Hebrews says we do so AFTER receiving salvation. John says if we hate our brother we are not saved.

    Jason refuses to hear that the words used to describe sinful behaivor are a continuous action and not a simple single action. You refuse to accept the clarity of scripture that Jason has put forth that shows we can lose our salvation by our walking in sinfulness.

    If I get saved and then start murdering people or become a serial rapist I do not get to go to heaven. I have done precisely what Hebrews talks about. I have done exactly what John talks about.

    Jesus says that no everyone who calls him Lord will enter despite what they have done. Yes all will bow before him and call him Lord. On that day refers to the day of Judgement like you said. But the judgement is based upon what they didn't do before that day. They did things in Jesus name believing they were doing it for Him. But they didn't follow his will. You don't cast out demons as a sinner. Satan doesn't do that. Believers do.
     
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