Is Hell fair?

[Messy]

A person selects hell.. God has all kinds in place to help and guide individuals but, they choose not to listen..they want to do their will.. ok.. God knows your not perfect but, at least attempt to do his will and learn from your lessons but, some are decieved by darkness and just thinks it all about this lifetime forgetting that the soul never dies or not realizing that soul never dies..

Glory To God

The spirit never dies. Jesus´ soul died and our sinful nature, part of our soul, died with him. What Paul wanted to attain was that his soul own will really died so he could come to the resurrection with Jesus. The soul that sins must die. I think second death is death of the soul and maybe that way the spirit can live after the soul died, just like when you get born again.

 

[Ringo84]

I'm probably stepping in it by responding to this, but no.

The ultimate sin, it is said, is to reject a relationship with Christ. But hell punishes a bad choice made over a finite lifetime for eternity, for no chance of parole.

Yes, I understand that God "cannot tolerate sin" and that God's love also requires judgment. Isn't it a contradiction, however, to speak of God's infinite, unchanging love while simultaneously talking about casting sinners into the pits of hell for all eternity?

Sorry...that doesn't make much sense to me.
Ringo

 

[OzSpen]

I'm probably stepping in it by responding to this, but no.

The ultimate sin, it is said, is to reject a relationship with Christ. But hell punishes a bad choice made over a finite lifetime for eternity, for no chance of parole.

Yes, I understand that God "cannot tolerate sin" and that God's love also requires judgment. Isn't it a contradiction, however, to speak of God's infinite, unchanging love while simultaneously talking about casting sinners into the pits of hell for all eternity?

Sorry...that doesn't make much sense to me.
Ringo

I don't find any inconsistency in God's treatment of sinners. Why? Because God is the absolutely fair, absolutely just/righteous, absolutely good, absolutely holy God. When we stand before him, we will not be able to announce to him, "God you were unfair in your treatment of me, the sinner. You don't have a clue about doing what is right for the sinner". Those kinds of thoughts will not enter my mind because they are based on my puny, limited, finite thinking.

Also, I am convinced that the Bible teaches this: Are there degrees of punishment in hell? I am convinced the answer to that question is, 'Yes'.

Do you know the Lord God almighty as your Lord and Saviour through your relationship with Jesus Christ and eternal salvation?

Oz

 

[Ringo84]

If He's "absolutely fair" (and I believe He is), then why plunge people into oblivion for all eternity for sins committed during a finite lifetime?

Also, why are you assuming that I'm not a Christian?
Ringo

 

[Messy]

I'm probably stepping in it by responding to this, but no.

The ultimate sin, it is said, is to reject a relationship with Christ. But hell punishes a bad choice made over a finite lifetime for eternity, for no chance of parole.

Yes, I understand that God "cannot tolerate sin" and that God's love also requires judgment. Isn't it a contradiction, however, to speak of God's infinite, unchanging love while simultaneously talking about casting sinners into the pits of hell for all eternity?

Sorry...that doesn't make much sense to me.
Ringo

That's something they invented that it was eternal to scare the people. It's more like a washing machine, like the Jews taught before this was invented.

 

[abacabb3]

That's something they invented that it was eternal to scare the people. It's more like a washing machine, like the Jews taught before this was invented.

who are "they?" Jesus (Matt 18:8)? Paul (2 Thes 1:9) the Apostle John? (rev 20:10)


I mean, you can argue we need to interpret figuratively the literal words of eternal damnation in Scripture, but a plain reading of Scripture lends itself to that conclusion.


Generally, the people who doubt eternal damnation tend to be the same that think white lies are not a big deal, homosexuality is not a sin, divorce is okay, premarital sex is okay, that not beleiving in Christ is okay if you were born in a non-Christian family. Again, I am saying "generally" but the people that doubt Scripture are not Christians, they are universalists with a Christian flavor. The Scripture is not the final word, their own personal notions of right and wrong is their moral guide. They are afraid to say that God has standards, that we all fall short and our only hope is Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Throw eternal damnation into doubt because "it sounds mean," well, Christ dying on the cross is cosmic-child abuse. Why believe that? The whole Christian religion is mean and should be done away with then.

 

[Dusky Mouse]

in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

Infinite punishment in Hell for finite mistakes in life?
Doesn't seem fair.
In scripture there are references to Sheol, Hades, the lake of fire, Hell. Gehenna.
Some think Hell is simply being removed from the presence of God for all time. For others it's a lake of fire, brimstone, eternal unquenchable thirst, torture, being ripped apart by demons for all time.

It is what it is. Salvation was always available all the days of our life. If we renounce the gift we suffer the consequences. Whatever we believe it is as God wills in the end.

 

[OzSpen]

If He's "absolutely fair" (and I believe He is), then why plunge people into oblivion for all eternity for sins committed during a finite lifetime?

Also, why are you assuming that I'm not a Christian?
Ringo

Ringo,

Firstly, I did not assume you are not a Christian. I simply asked a question.

I’m of the view that this matter of eternal punishment in hell rises or falls on (1) our understanding of the eternal attribute of God, (2) the nature of human beings, and (3) whether or not we think the human soul lives forever. If our souls are not eternal, then sins do not have eternal consequences - they are temporary. But that is not the case.

The reality is that we are beings who live forever. We are made for an eternal relationship with God, who is the eternal Being. Therefore to sin against the eternal God, reject his overtures to us, has eternal consequences.

My understanding is that when we think of sins as being temporal and not having eternal consequences, then we begin to think that eternal hell is unfair.

When I understand the eternal nature of sins, and the eternal attribute of the One against whom I sin, I understand why Jesus’ sacrifice for sin was the necessary sacrifice. Is it fair that the eternal Son of God had to be sacrificed for temporal sins? That’s the wrong question. The eternal Son of God was sacrificed on the cross because sin has eternal consequences.

Hebrew 7:27 states, ‘He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself’ (ESV).

So the reason why eternal punishment in hell is fair is because: (1) Of the nature of God, (2) The nature of human beings, and (3) The eternal consequences for human sin against the eternal God.

God is absolutely just and always does what is fair and righteous. That’s why the consequences for sin for the unregenerate are eternal punishment in hell.

See: "How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?"

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

That's something they invented that it was eternal to scare the people. It's more like a washing machine, like the Jews taught before this was invented.

Are you saying that Jesus invented eternal punishment to scare people? It was he who stated:

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:46 ESV).

The word aiwnios (eternal) is the very same word associated with punishment as eternal life. Therefore, eternal punishment is as long as eternal life will be.

You have made a serious allegation when you say that 'that's something they invented ... to scare people' because you are accusing Jesus of doing that.

Why don't you accept what the Scriptures state? You seem to be inventing your own theology that avoids eternal punishment. Eternal punishment is the teaching of Jesus.

Oz

 

[Messy]

who are "they?" Jesus (Matt 18:8)? Paul (2 Thes 1:9) the Apostle John? (rev 20:10)


I mean, you can argue we need to interpret figuratively the literal words of eternal damnation in Scripture, but a plain reading of Scripture lends itself to that conclusion.


Generally, the people who doubt eternal damnation tend to be the same that think white lies are not a big deal, homosexuality is not a sin, divorce is okay, premarital sex is okay, that not beleiving in Christ is okay if you were born in a non-Christian family. Again, I am saying "generally" but the people that doubt Scripture are not Christians, they are universalists with a Christian flavor. The Scripture is not the final word, their own personal notions of right and wrong is their moral guide. They are afraid to say that God has standards, that we all fall short and our only hope is Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Throw eternal damnation into doubt because "it sounds mean," well, Christ dying on the cross is cosmic-child abuse. Why believe that? The whole Christian religion is mean and should be done away with then.

No Augustine, before him they didn't preach eternal damnation.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason people don't believe this is that they reach out to atheists, who fell off their faith primarily because of eternal hell preaching and people doubting their faith because of the concept of eternal hell which isn't even Biblical?
Plain reading of the mistranslated text leads to it, not plain reading of the original.

 

[OzSpen]

No Augustine, before him they didn't preach eternal damnation.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason people don't believe this is that they reach out to atheists, who fell off their faith primarily because of eternal hell preaching and people doubting their faith because of the concept of eternal hell which isn't even Biblical?
Plain reading of the mistranslated text leads to it, not plain reading of the original.

My, oh my!! I do wish that you would read the Church Fathers and accurately report what they believed about hell. Before Augustine there were definitely church fathers who believed in the hell of eternal punishment.

Please take a read of The Early Church Fathers on Hell.

I pray that you will report accurately what the Church Fathers BEFORE Augustine truly believed, instead of providing us with this misrepresentation.

Oz

 

[Messy]

My, oh my!! I do wish that you would read the Church Fathers and accurately report what they believed about hell. Before Augustine there were definitely church fathers who believed in the hell of eternal punishment.

Please take a read of The Early Church Fathers on Hell.

I pray that you will report accurately what the Church Fathers BEFORE Augustine truly believed, instead of providing us with this misrepresentation.

Oz

Sorry, could be, but I don't care what church fathers say, most of them were antisemites anyway, I care about what the jews before that taught and what the Bible teaches.
I read this:
Matthew 25:46 In the original Greek it says kolasin aionion, which is the opposite of eternal torture. The pharisees taught eternal torture and used timorion aidion.
Greek used timoria for a revenge punishment and kolasis for a correction punishment.
If Jesus meant eternal torture He would have used timorion aidion or timorion ateleutelon, just like the Pharisees who did believe in eternal torture. aionios comes from the Hebrew olam, which is an undefined period.

Augustine wrote that most christians in his time believed in universalism, which he rejected.

Justinianus (482 – 565) forced the church to teach eternal damnation, which lead to translators in the Middle Ages translating aionos with eternal, which wasn't so in the time of Justinianos.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry, could be, but I don't care what church fathers say, most of them were antisemites anyway, I care about what the jews before that taught and what the Bible teaches.
I read this:
Matthew 25:46 In the original Greek it says kolasin aionion, which is the opposite of eternal torture. The pharisees taught eternal torture and used timorion aidion.
Greek used timoria for a revenge punishment and kolasis for a correction punishment.
If Jesus meant eternal torture He would have used timorion aidion or timorion ateleutelon, just like the Pharisees who did believe in eternal torture. aionios comes from the Hebrew olam, which is an undefined period.

Augustine wrote that most christians in his time believed in universalism, which he rejected.

Justinianus (482 – 565) forced the church to teach eternal damnation, which lead to translators in the Middle Ages translating aionos with eternal, which wasn't so in the time of Justinianos.

You actually do care what the church fathers believed. Your writing on this forum confirms your view when you stated:

No Augustine, before him they didn't preach eternal damnation.

I was responding to what you wrote about those who were 'before him', i.e. the church fathers who were before Augustine.

The facts are that there were church fathers before Justinianus who believed in eternal damnation. Thus, I seriously question your statement that Justinianus 'forced the church to teach eternal damnation'. That is not the case. You seem to be creating your own view of things - perhaps fed by some others of like persuasion.

Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon studied aiwnios from the time of the Septuagint and concluded that it means 'eternal' and in many passages, including Matt. 25:46, it means 'without end ... eternal life' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28).

Seems as though you are trying to promote another agenda.

Oz

 

[Ringo84]

Ringo,

Firstly, I did not assume you are not a Christian. I simply asked a question.

I’m of the view that this matter of eternal punishment in hell rises or falls on (1) our understanding of the eternal attribute of God, (2) the nature of human beings, and (3) whether or not we think the human soul lives forever. If our souls are not eternal, then sins do not have eternal consequences - they are temporary. But that is not the case.

The reality is that we are beings who live forever. We are made for an eternal relationship with God, who is the eternal Being. Therefore to sin against the eternal God, reject his overtures to us, has eternal consequences.

My understanding is that when we think of sins as being temporal and not having eternal consequences, then we begin to think that eternal hell is unfair.

When I understand the eternal nature of sins, and the eternal attribute of the One against whom I sin, I understand why Jesus’ sacrifice for sin was the necessary sacrifice. Is it fair that the eternal Son of God had to be sacrificed for temporal sins? That’s the wrong question. The eternal Son of God was sacrificed on the cross because sin has eternal consequences.

Hebrew 7:27 states, ‘He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself’ (ESV).

So the reason why eternal punishment in hell is fair is because: (1) Of the nature of God, (2) The nature of human beings, and (3) The eternal consequences for human sin against the eternal God.

God is absolutely just and always does what is fair and righteous. That’s why the consequences for sin for the unregenerate are eternal punishment in hell.

See: "How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?"

Oz

So in other words, God says 'believe in Me or I'm going to cast you into hell for all eternity"? That doesn't sound much like the eternal love God is storied to have for all of us.
Ringo

 

[OzSpen]

So in other words, God says 'believe in Me or I'm going to cast you into hell for all eternity"? That doesn't sound much like the eternal love God is storied to have for all of us.
Ringo

The God of love is the God of discipline and punishment - like a good parent today.

I'm sticking with what the Scriptures declare and not making up what I want them to say.

I find it disappointing that you avoided the content of what I wrote. Does that mean I'm wasting my time in spending time to reply in detail to what you wrote? That seems to be the indication to me.

Oz

 

[Messy]

You actually do care what the church fathers believed. Your writing on this forum confirms your view when you stated:

I was responding to what you wrote about those who were 'before him', i.e. the church fathers who were before Augustine.

The facts are that there were church fathers before Justinianus who believed in eternal damnation. Thus, I seriously question your statement that Justinianus 'forced the church to teach eternal damnation'. That is not the case. You seem to be creating your own view of things - perhaps fed by some others of like persuasion.

Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon studied aiwnios from the time of the Septuagint and concluded that it means 'eternal' and in many passages, including Matt. 25:46, it means 'without end ... eternal life' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28).

Seems as though you are trying to promote another agenda.

Oz

No I read this and believe it now, well, not 100% sure when I read this comment. I don't know much about church history and not enough about this theory, just read this what I translated here and more on forums and also from a theologian and Sadhu Sundhar Singh saw it.
There are texts like with the Pharisees that will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come and others will, for Sodom judgement would be more bearible, he who knew not what his Master wanted will be punished less. Doesn't sound like one eternal hell for everyone.

 

[Messy]

So in other words, God says 'believe in Me or I'm going to cast you into hell for all eternity"? That doesn't sound much like the eternal love God is storied to have for all of us.
Ringo

No, God doesn't throw people in hell, only in the end. They hide there because in His Light all their sins become clear and they don't have a new nature by believing and accepting His offer or even walking in love for gentiles who never heard the gospel (Romans 2). The problem is sin, not not believing, we will be judged by what we did. I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat.

 

[OzSpen]

No I read this and believe it now, well, not 100% sure when I read this comment. I don't know much about church history and not enough about this theory, just read this what I translated here and more on forums and also from a theologian and Sadhu Sundhar Singh saw it.
There are texts like with the Pharisees that will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come and others will, for Sodom judgement would be more bearible, he who knew not what his Master wanted will be punished less. Doesn't sound like one eternal hell for everyone.

There is eternal hell for the unrighteous and eternal life for the righteous as Matt 25:46 makes clear:

And these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life (ESV).

 

[Messy]

There is eternal hell for the unrighteous and eternal life for the righteous as Matt 25:46 makes clear:

Yes, well they have translations and then it doesn't mean what it says, don't know. I read it here:
Aionos

Other option was that Gehenna will be judged by their works (no judgement for believers, because we don't come under judgement any more) and only for people like Hitler and the Pharisees there is no hope. Outside will be the killers and everything.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, well they have translations and then it doesn't mean what it says, don't know. I read it here:
Aionos

Other option was that Gehenna will be judged by their works (no judgement for believers, because we don't come under judgement any more) and only for people like Hitler and the Pharisees there is no hope. Outside will be the killers and everything.

And you trust a link to a website that is titled 'Evangelical Universalist'. Anyone who tries to defend universalism is not promoting biblical Christianity. It is an oxymoron to use the language of 'evangelical universalist'.

Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon studied aiwnios from the time of the Septuagint and concluded that it means 'eternal' and in many passages, including Matt. 25:46, it means 'without end ... eternal life' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28). This is an authoritative Greek dictionary (lexicon), yet you seek your definition from one who claims to be an 'evangelical universalist'. Why, oh why do you do this?

If you wanted to understand an English word, would you go to a strange unrelated source, or would you go to an English dictionary for an accurate definition. I urge you to go to an authoritative Greek dictionary like Arndt & Gingrich to determine the meaning of aiwnios (eternal, without end).

Oz