Is Hell fair?

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OzSpen

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No, I understand it and I reject it. Besides, the other side claims that hell is eternal, everlasting, and neverending. In order for your technicality to take hold, you have to get them to admit that hell is not eternal. I don't think you will succeed in that attempt. They are a stubborn bunch.
No, we are discussing the issue of infinite punishment for finite sin. This is how the poster to the link I gave put it (in part):
A potential infinity, on the other hand, is a series or function that incrementally approaches infinity in value but never actually reaches it. The series of natural numbers — 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. — is a potential infinity. Each number in the line is ‘closer’ to infinity than its predecessor, yet every number in the line is a finite number, simply because its predecessor is also a finite number. The series is endless — it has no final item — and yet every item in the series is finite and the total length of the series up to and including that item is also finite. For example, the thousandth item in the series is finite (the number 1000) and the length of the series to that point is also finite (1000 items).


With this distinction in hand, it should be clear enough that if hell is endless then its duration is merely a potential infinity and not an actual infinity. Even if hell is everlasting, no person in hell would ever actually experience an infinite duration of punishment. Since the creation had a beginning in time, and hell is part of the creation, hell must also have a beginning in time; thus, at any point in time, hell has only existed for a finite duration — and the same must go for its inhabitants, of course. The total duration of the punishment suffered by the damned will be ever-increasing, but it will always be a finite duration: one year, two years, three years, and so on. It follows that the traditional view of hell does not — indeed, cannot — involve punishment that is infinite in duration.


Now the original objector might reply that it’s unjust even to inflict a potentially infinite punishment for finite sin. But it’s hard even to make sense of such a claim, never mind to justify it. The simple fact is that at any point in time the punishment suffered by a person in hell can only have been finite in duration (and, as I argued earlier, finite in intensity). Since God never actually inflicts an infinite punishment on anyone, how could he reasonably be charged with injustice for doing so? No matter how much time passes, it is always finite punishment for finite sin. While it may be trivially easy to argue that an infinite amount is disproportionate to any finite amount, it’s much harder to argue that some finite amount is disproportionate to some other finite amount when neither amount is readily quantifiable (by us) in the first place.


In sum, this particular objection to the traditional Christian view of hell fails because it attacks a straw man. The traditional view doesn’t involve an infinite punishment for sinners — at least, not in any sense that obviously implies injustice or disproportionality on God’s part.
However, there is another issue. For how long is life in heaven for those who accepted Christ as Lord in finite time? Is that fair? I'm using your argumentation of the unfairness of infinite punishment for supposed finite sin.

Sincerely, Oz
 
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Timothew

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No, we are discussing the issue of infinite punishment for finite sin. This is how the poster to the link I gave put it (in part):

However, there is another issue. For how long is life in heaven for those who accepted Christ as Lord in finite time? Is that fair? I'm using your argumentation of the unfairness of infinite punishment for supposed finite sin.

Sincerely, Oz
IT is unfair. That's why we call it grace and not a deserved result of our good works.
 
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OzSpen

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IT is unfair. That's why we call it grace and not a deserved result of our good works.
The same grace sends the unbeliever to hell. They would never want to live in the Christian understanding of the presence of God.

Oz
 
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mathetes123

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in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

Was it fair that Christ had to die on the cross for our sins?
 
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OzSpen

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Was it fair that Christ had to die on the cross for our sins?
Well said, mathetes.

In addition, no human being writes the laws of the universe. The Lord God who is completely just (shall not the Judge of all the earth do right), will never ever commit an unjust act in time or eternity. No person will go to heaven or hell, based on any unfairness by God.

However, my view does depend on my doctrine of God that is derived from the Scriptures of OT and NT. I make no apologies for that.

If I used my puny human wisdom, I can come up with all kinds of injustices that would be wrong from God's perspective. I find the slaughter that has just happened in Syria with 116 people dead, 32 of them being children, to be completely unfair from my perspective - sitting here in my home office in Brisbane, Australia, looking out on a glorious sunny, winter's day. My humanity screams withing me, "Why does God allow this?" But then I remember Genesis 3 and the fall into sin and see that Syria and Genesis 3 are connected.

We wretched human beings chose to rebel against God, through our federal head, Adam, and the evil in our world is related to that act.

But that's flowing out of my Christian worldview and what God has revealed to us.

In Christ, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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God's grace sends people to hell to be endlessly tormented? :doh:
I am going by THE BOOK. I didn't invent this. God has revealed it and in our frail humanity we want to disown what God has stated. do the exegesis of the texts and eternal damnation is as long as eternal life.

To say otherwise is to finagle the text, as I understand from exegesis.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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I think it's unfair too. In my heart, I can't see Jesus sending someone to hell. He "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
What I think and what you think do not determine where anyone spends eternity.

You have quoted John 8:11:
“No one, sir,” she said.“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” (NIV)
Based on the manuscript evidence, it is highly unlikely that John 7:53 - 8:11 is in the original manuscripts. The earliest MSS discovered so far do not include this section about the woman taken in adultery.


Oz
 
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jant54

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What I think and what you think do not determine where anyone spends eternity.

You have quoted John 8:11:
Based on the manuscript evidence, it is highly unlikely that John 7:53 - 8:11 is in the original manuscripts. The earliest MSS discovered so far do not include this section about the woman taken in adultery.


Oz

Exactly! What you think doesn't determine anything. Just like "the church" got it wrong in thinking any person is infallible the same with "the church" thinking that Hell is just, hell is God's choice for some, Hell is eternal torment forever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ........ Just accept that we may misunderstand. The "church" - God's choice for showing the world "Himself" - is still learning. Let it happen.
 
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rogueapologist

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Hell as punishment is unfair, but it is also a fantasy. Hell is not about punishment; it is the state of existing and persisting in willful antipathy to God. This hell, of course, is quite fair, for it is the choice of a person who would desire a pale existence in pride over that of humble submission to the will of God.
 
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OzSpen

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Hell as punishment is unfair, but it is also a fantasy. Hell is not about punishment; it is the state of existing and persisting in willful antipathy to God. This hell, of course, is quite fair, for it is the choice of a person who would desire a pale existence in pride over that of humble submission to the will of God.
I notice that your exegesis of Scripture is absent.

Oz
 
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hlaltimus

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in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

When one stands solemnly at the throne of eternal judgment, then and only then apprehends the exact nature, extent and offensiveness of sin to God, he or she will finally be in a position to determine if hell is truly fair or unfair beyond a doubt. However, there will be no arguments...not then and not there.
 
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OzSpen

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in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.
I have taken the following from my brief article, 'Are there degrees of punishment in hell?'

1. Since God is “the righteous Judge” (2 Tim. 4:8), we would expect that sinners would be punished according to the extent of their sin. This is what the Bible affirms.

2. Matthew 10:14-15 states, “And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (ESV).
So it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who do not welcome and listen to the apostles. This is an amazing statement: it is going to be fairer for those who committed sexual immorality in Sodom & Gomorrah than for those who rejected the gospel. What is this saying about punishment in hell?

3. A similar affirmation of degrees of punishment can be found in Matthew 11:21-24,
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you” (NIV).
4. Luke 12:47-48 speaks of many blows and few blows: “And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more” (ESV).
The lesson is that where one has greater privileges, there will be greater responsibilities. J. C. Ryle warned: “The saddest road to hell is that which runs under the pulpit, past the Bible and through the midst of warnings and invitations.”

5. When Jesus criticised the religious leaders at his time on earth, he said that “such men will be punished more severely” (NIV, see Mark 12:38-40). This clearly indicates degrees of punishment in hell.

6. John’s vision of the judgment against “Babylon” (Rev. 18:1-7) indicates degree of punishment in proportion to sin committed.

7. Other verses to contemplate include Mark 9:42 and Romans 2:5. John Blanchard writes: “Every day the sinner lives, every selfish penny he makes, every unholy pleasure he enjoys, every ungrateful breath he takes, are storing up God’s anger against him.”

8. We need to remember that:
a. Only God’s kind of justice will be experienced in hell;
b. There will be degrees of punishment, but
c. That is nothing to gloat about because punishment in hell is eternal, no matter what it is like.
Sincerely, Oz
 
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toolite

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in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

A person selects hell.. God has all kinds in place to help and guide individuals but, they choose not to listen..they want to do their will.. ok.. God knows your not perfect but, at least attempt to do his will and learn from your lessons but, some are decieved by darkness and just thinks it all about this lifetime forgetting that the soul never dies or not realizing that soul never dies..

Glory To God
 
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OzSpen

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A person selects hell.. God has all kinds in place to help and guide individuals but, they choose not to listen..they want to do their will.. ok.. God knows your not perfect but, at least attempt to do his will and learn from your lessons but, some are decieved by darkness and just thinks it all about this lifetime forgetting that the soul never dies or not realizing that soul never dies..

Glory To God
I found this to be a helpful chapter by Douglas Moo, 'Paul on Hell', that is taken from the book, Hell under Fire.

I'm also of the view that the Bible teaches that there are degrees of punishment in hell. See 'Are there degrees of punishment in hell?'

Oz
 
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Messy

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in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.
I don´t believe it is an infinite punishment. Eternal is about aioons. That wouldn´t be fair. Someone who didn´t know His will will be punished less, it says somewhere in the Bible. It´s unfair if Hitler gets the same punishment as one who didn´t sin so much. And He will be all in all at the end and death will be no more, so I believe it´s a cleansing fire, second death. First death is of the body. It was a punishment, but also grace, otherwise we couldn´t be saved. Maybe that´s the same with second death.
 
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