Is Hell fair?

[superlativecritic]

in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

 

[Nick T]

in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

This is a quote from a book which was quoted on an old thread which baisically sums up the EO view of Hell:
"Hell is not so much a place where God imprisons man, as a place where man, by misusing his free will, chooses to imprison himself. And even in Hell the wicked are not deprived of the love of God, but by their own choice they experience as suffering what the saints experience as joy. ‘The love of God will be an intolerable torment for those who have not acquired it within themselves’ (V. Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, p. 234)."

The crux of this matter is free will. While we might think it "unfair" that God does not simply save everyone this would completly undermine free will which was given to humanity from the very begining and is what sets us apart from mere animals.

 

[superlativecritic]

The crux of this matter is free will. While we might think it "unfair" that God does not simply save everyone this would completly undermine free will which was given to humanity from the very begining and is what sets us apart from mere animals.

yes, but free will presents another problem: humans are so stupid. How can we be responsible for our foolishness, ignorance and gullibility and suffer eternal consequences for them?

Some people are so indoctrinated in some religion from birth, and through social status (eg. women in Islam) are simply too oppressed and indoctrinated and uneducated to accept the Gospel in a meaningful way.

Put it in more down-to-earth examples: ever read "The Darwin Awards", awarded to people who have accidentally killed themselves in ridiculous ways? One wonders how humans can be so stupid, and yet that's exactly what we are. A cursory visit to any forum shows that most people are incapable of critical thought, or are so entrenched in their presuppositions that they don't realize their perception of the world is merely an interpretation through a single colored lens.

 

[Nick T]

yes, but free will presents another problem: humans are so stupid. How can we be responsible for our foolishness, ignorance and gullibility and suffer eternal consequences for them?

Some people are so indoctrinated in some religion from birth, and through social status (eg. women in Islam) are simply too oppressed and indoctrinated and uneducated to accept the Gospel in a meaningful way.

Put it in more down-to-earth examples: ever read "The Darwin Awards", awarded to people who have accidentally killed themselves in ridiculous ways? One wonders how humans can be so stupid, and yet that's exactly what we are. A cursory visit to any forum shows that most people are incapable of critical thought, or are so entrenched in their presuppositions that they don't realize their perception of the world is merely an interpretation through a single colored lens.

Would you rather live in a world without free will? Can you even imagine a place where we cannot choose what we do? Although free will does have it's disadvantages it is vastly more loving of God to give it to us than it would be if we were without it.

The bottom line is that "God is love". I cannot tell you what will happen for the souls of those in the situations you have cited, indeed I cannot even tell you what will happen with my own soul! All we can do is pray for them and ourselves and trust in God's loving mercy.

 

[superlativecritic]

Would you rather live in a world without free will? Can you even imagine a place where we cannot choose what we do? Although free will does have it's disadvantages it is vastly more loving of God to give it to us than it would be if we were without it.

The bottom line is that "God is love". I cannot tell you what will happen for the souls of those in the situations you have cited, indeed I cannot even tell you what will happen with my own soul! All we can do is pray for them and ourselves and trust in God's loving mercy.

I think you miss my point. I am not advocating against free will, merely asking how can we be accountable for our free will given human stupidity?

It's one thing to expect a mathematical professor to perform calculus competently, it is another matter to expect an uneducated village person from a third world country to perform the same calculus with the same competence. I would argue that all humans are equally incompetent when it comes to spiritual matters.

 

[Verticordious]

in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

The first thing I would ask is: In exactly what sense is a sin finite? The sense in which Hell is infinite is duration, and since there is no going back in time and changing the past, as far as I know, it would seem that sins are infinite in duration also since they cannot be undone. Both are therefore infinite and the argument is invalid.

Secondly, people are not sent to Hell on the basis of their individual actions anyway, but rather the motivation behind them, so the argument is again invalid. Regardless of how "bad" of a person you are, you can still go to Heaven if you repent and trust in God. Even the so-called "worst" people to have ever lived, such as Hitler and Stalin, could be saved if they would have repented. It doesn't matter what you've done in the past, if you repent and trust you will be saved.

The reason people are sent to Hell is because they are intent on following their own rules, rather than God's rules. Atheists, for example, have their own morality that they adhere to. They may agree with God on some things, like murder, but on other things they disagree, and whenever they disagree they simply ignore what God has to say. Obedience only when you feel like it is not obedience at all.

If unbelievers are simply going to ignore God and follow their own morality here on Earth, what reason is there to think they would do any differently in Heaven? If such people were in Heaven, Heaven would be no different than Earth. It would be full of people refusing to obey God and instead following their own desires. That would defeat the purpose of Heaven entirely.

The ONLY way to get in to Heaven is to submit to God and follow his rules. This is why unbelievers can never please God. Even when unbelievers do good things, they're only doing so to please themselves, which is not pleasing God. This is also the reason why Heaven will be perfect, because God's rules are perfect and everyone in Heaven will be following God's rules.

 

[bibleblevr]

Would you rather live in a world without free will?

What do you mean, I do!

 

[bibleblevr]

in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

First off, I don't believe in an eternal hell, I don't think that the Bible points to that. The only eternal punishment for the non-elect is ceasing to exist, and thus never being with God for ever, a chilling fate for sure.

Secondly, I have confidence in God's process of election, He is a fair God, and If he wants to make some people to be vessels of mercy and others for destruction, then more power to him.

 

[Nick T]

What do you mean, I do!

Really? God gave us free will, hence why Adam and Eve were free to eat the apple. God told them not to but did not prevent them fron sinning, hence free will.

 

[St_Worm2]

The crux of this matter is free will. While we might think it "unfair" that God does not simply save everyone this would completly undermine free will which was given to humanity from the very begining and is what sets us apart from mere animals.

Oh I don't know about animals not having free will, Nick. If you met my dog, I think you'd agree

Anyway, my question whenever this scenario is posed is this, is "free will" really all it's cracked up to be? If we could really choose between Heaven and Hell (IOW, we could make a truly informed decision), WHY WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE HELL? They would have to be out of their minds!! So does that mean that only the mentally infirmed are going to burn? Is that fair?

Or how about this, why are there so many more Christians coming from Christian families and nations than from Muslim families and the Muslim world? Do you think the son of Billy Graham or the son of Osama bin Laden would have the best chance of becoming a Christian ..

One last thought, how about us? We're Christians, but most of our neighbors probably aren't. What makes us so special .. How come we 'got it' and they didn't? Are we smarter than they are? Were we given a greater dose of common sense? How come us and not them?

If "free will" (as we all know it) is the basis for getting into Heaven, is there any sense that this could, in any way, be deemed .. "FAIR"

Thoughts anyone?

--David

 

[Nick T]

Oh I don't know about animals not having free will, Nick. If you met my dog, I think you'd agree

Anyway, my question whenever this scenario is posed is this, is "free will" really all it's cracked up to be? If we could really choose between Heaven and Hell (IOW, we could make a truly informed decision), WHY WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE HELL? They would have to be out of their minds!! So does that mean that only the mentally infirmed are going to burn? Is that fair?

Or how about this, why are there so many more Christians coming from Christian families and nations than from Muslim families and the Muslim world? Do you think the son of Billy Graham or the son of Osama bin Laden would have the best chance of becoming a Christian ..

One last thought, how about us? We're Christians, but most of our neighbors probably aren't. What makes us so special .. How come we 'got it' and they didn't? Are we smarter than they are? Were we given a greater dose of common sense? How come us and not them?

If "free will" (as we all know it) is the basis for getting into Heaven, is there any sense that this could, in any way, be deemed .. "FAIR"

Thoughts anyone?

--David

The problem is that man's most famous act of free will, the fall, means that we live in a world where sinning is "natural" and therefore, to be "fair", we should all go to hell. But through Jesus Christ we are given a chance to make that choice and choose to go to heaven. Unfortunatly because of the fall the choice is, as you so rightly pointed out, not a "fully informed descision" which is why, as I said in my previous post, we simply have to trust that God, who is love, will take into account each individual situation when judgement day comes.
So in short free will is as "fair" as we can get with God respecting the free will of Adam and Eve, who did have a "fully informed descision", and chose for us all to live in a world of sin.

 

[Verticordious]

The problem is that man's most famous act of free will, the fall, means that we live in a world where sinning is "natural" and therefore, to be "fair", we should all go to hell. But through Jesus Christ we are given a chance to make that choice and choose to go to heaven. Unfortunatly because of the fall the choice is, as you so rightly pointed out, not a "fully informed descision" which is why, as I said in my previous post, we simply have to trust that God, who is love, will take into account each individual situation when judgement day comes.
So in short free will is as "fair" as we can get with God respecting the free will of Adam and Eve, who did have a "fully informed descision", and chose for us all to live in a world of sin.

The only reason people aren't fully informed is that the refuse to take the time to inform themselves. If most people were actually 'seekers' that just couldn't find the complete truth, then we'd expect to see that the distribution of religious adherents would be much more decentralized. What we find throughout the world is quite opposite, that religious beliefs are very centralized. Nearly all Hindus are located in India, nearly all Buddhists are located in South-East Asia, nearly all Atheists/Agnostics are located in Europe and Eastern Asia, nearly all Catholics are located in Europe/South America, nearly all Muslims are located in the Middle East and North Africa, and nearly all Protestants are located in the United States, South Africa, and Northern Europe.

The centralized nature of religion demonstrates that people are not seekers, they are simply followers. The overwhelming majority of people just accept the beliefs of their parents, they don't do any thinking of their own. Just look at how many people claim to be Christian, but don't have even a basic knowledge of what the Bible says. Most people don't even concern themselves with what religion they are, they merely answer Christian for social acceptance. Sorry, but merely associating yourself with a Christian from time to time won't get you to Heaven. People could inform themselves if they would simply do a little work, they just choose not to.

 

[Tzaousios]

So in short free will is as "fair" as we can get with God respecting the free will of Adam and Eve, who did have a "fully informed descision", and chose for us all to live in a world of sin.

What makes you think that all human beings after the Fall have a will as free as Adam and Eve or even one close to being as free as theirs? That appears to be a major assumption that you as of yet have left unexplained.

Also, do you believe that the will is free when it has available more than one unconstrained choice?

 

[Nick T]

What makes you think that all human beings after the Fall have a will as free as Adam and Eve or even one close to being as free as theirs? That appears to be a major assumption that you as of yet have left unexplained.

Why wouldn't we? I've never read anything suggesting we don't have free will just as adam and eve did. The only differance, as I said, is that the world we live in is fallen, hence why we need God's help to correctly exercise our free will.

 

[Tzaousios]

Why wouldn't we? I've never read anything suggesting we don't have free will just as adam and eve did. The only differance, as I said, is that the world we live in is fallen, hence why we need God's help to correctly exercise our free will.

Notice above that I did not say "no free will." Rather, the concept of the operation of the human will that you have put forward pays no attention to the effects of sin and corruption. It acknowledges that sin is there but does not explain what effects it has.

What does it mean to say that we live in a fallen world? What does it mean to say we need God's help? Merely to say that we need God's help to exercise the will demonstrates that it is not free in some capacity.

Also, you did not answer my second question:

Also, do you believe that the will is free when it has available more than one unconstrained choice?

 

[OzSpen]

superlativecritic,

in the wikipedia article on "The Problem of Hell" it talks about the unfairness of an infinite consequence of finite sin. Regardless of how bad one was on earth, nevertheless an infinite punishment for sins committed during a finite period seems an overkill.

On the other hand, is it fair that an entire lifetime is altered just by a 1 hour exam? Or that one mistake could land you the death penalty in the wrong country?

What are your opinions on this, as I am quite troubled by it.

Do you think that it is unfair to have infinite consequences of a finite decision (seeking forgiveness of sins) made in time, regardless of how bad one is on earth, so that one can inherit eternal life? Why should a decision made in time to trust Christ as Lord and Saviour lead to an eternal position (heaven) with the eternal God?

In other words: Is heaven fair?

Regards, Spencer

 

[Tzaousios]

Bumped for Nick T. Thanks.

 

[DArceri]

superlativecritic,


Do you think that it is unfair to have infinite consequences of a finite decision (seeking forgiveness of sins) made in time, regardless of how bad one is on earth, so that one can inherit eternal life? Why should a decision made in time to trust Christ as Lord and Saviour lead to an eternal position (heaven) with the eternal God?

In other words: Is heaven fair?

Regards, Spencer

Knowing God is not a finite event, it's a SUPERNATURAL EVENT. It should be noted that grace is something given, not earned. Otherwise it would not be called grace. That being said, God has graciously revealed himself to only those He choses out of the good pleasure of His will. He doesn't owe anyone anything, especially eternal fellowship with sinners!!! Since HEAVEN IS A GIFT BY GOD, it can't be earned!!! If He has revealed Himself to you, then you have been truly blessed. It is nothing you have earned for yourself.

 

[OzSpen]

DArceri,

Knowing God is not a finite event, it's a SUPERNATURAL EVENT. It should be noted that grace is something given, not earned. Otherwise it would not be called grace. That being said, God has graciously revealed himself to only those He choses out of the good pleasure of His will. He doesn't owe anyone anything, especially Heaven!!! Since HEAVEN IS A GIFT BY GOD, it can't be earned by a sinner!!! Heaven is fellowship with our Lord for eternity. If He has revealed Himself to you, then you have been truly blessed. It is nothing you have earned for yourself.

I was responding to superlativecritic's view that hell is unfair because of its eternal consequences when the action happened in a finite time. I was trying to draw the comparison of a decision made in finite time to obtain eternal life. My question was: If hell is unfair on superlativecritic's grounds, would not heaven be unfair as well.

I accept the grace of God and the supernatural salvation that comes through Chrjst and the points you make that such salvation for sinners cannot be earned.

My point was a simple one: If hell is unfair, then why shouldn't heaven be unfair according to the OP?

Regards, Spencer

 

[DArceri]

DArceri,

I was responding to superlativecritic's view that hell is unfair because of its eternal consequences when the action happened in a finite time. I was trying to draw the comparison of a decision made in finite time to obtain eternal life. My question was: If hell is unfair on superlativecritic's grounds, would not heaven be unfair as well.

I accept the grace of God and the supernatural salvation that comes through Chrjst and the points you make that such salvation for sinners cannot be earned.

My point was a simple one: If hell is unfair, then why shouldn't heaven be unfair according to the OP?

Regards, Spencer

Good point. The problem most people have is that they think one of God's attributes is fairness. But that simply is not so. JOB found that out too quickly.... All God has to be is JUST in His decisions. If sinning against an eternally Holy and Righteous God requires an eternal punishment for Divine justice to be satisfied, then it is what it is. Does it seem unfair to the finite mind? Maybe. But remember what scripture says,....."For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts....(Is 55:9).