What do you mean "the points"? I'm saying that either there are no strong points for the mainstream hell doctrine and/or the ones used are "flimsy". Rather you give me the points supporting the mainstream doctrine of hell. Not saying there is NO support - just very little and flimsy. Not what you'd think after being taught something as such a "fact" all your life.
Do you see that you do? Take a look at that last sentence. You don't know me and my life. You wouldn't have a clue about what I've been taught "all your life". You have erected a straw man logical fallacy. We can't have a logical discussion when you do something as illogical as this.
What is the orthodox doctrine of hell?
While explaining the differences among the OT word for hell (sheol), the NT words for hell (hades, gehenna & tartarus), Geisler (2005:337-338) explains that
the nature of hell is a horrifying reality [for unbelievers]. Hell is like being left outside in the dark forever. Hell is like a wandering star, a waterless cloud, a perpetually burning dump, a bottomless pit, and everlasting prison. Hell is a place of anguish and regret.
Wayne Grudem (1994:1148) explains the orthodox doctrine: ‘Hell is a place of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked’.
We know this from the Scriptures of the New Testament that after death, unbelievers are:
- Conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
- “Under punishment until the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9);
- Matt. 25:41, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’”.
- Mark 9:43-44, “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell [gehenna], to the unquenchable fire”.
- Rev. 20:15, “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”.
A common argument to reject the teaching of Luke 16:23 is that it forms part of a parable and is not meant to teach a literal experience of torment in hell for unbelievers. Is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus a parable or something else? Geldenhuys assumes it is a parable with the heading, ‘Parable of the rich man and Lazarus” (1979:424). I. Howard Marshall (1978:632) also accepted that it is a parable. Norman Geisler rejects the label of parable, saying Luke 16:19-31 is ‘a stunningly vivid story that speaks for itself and, unlike parables, uses a person’s actual name (Lazarus)’ and ‘Jesus tells of a man in hell’ (2005:331).
I agree that this is a parable and has ONE main point and that is what happens after death for the righteous and the unrighteous. For the unbeliever there are anguish and torment. For the believers there is comfort. There is a great gulf between the final destiny of believer and unbeliever.
As an exegete and expositor of God’s word, I make every attempt to read a verse in context. In addition to the actual Greek word that Peter used in 2 Peter 2:9 for the punishment of the unrighteous, the tense of the participle used is the present tense, meaning continuous action. The ESV enforces this understanding with its translation, “to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment”. “To keep … under punishment” is better understood in a present continuing action than a future connotation (as with the KJV). J. N. D. Kelly rightly states regarding the present participle of punishment that “we cannot easily attribute a future tense”.
This continuing punishment of the unbelievers in the intermediate state[10], after death and before the resurrection, is supported in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) by the fact that Jesus teaches that for the ungodly there is suffering after death while they await the day of final judgment.
Let’s look at some facts about the final location of the ungodly at judgment before God himself: Gehenna[11] (see also Matt. 5:22, 29, 20; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6) is derived from Ge-Hinnom (John. 15:8; 18:6) which is abbreviated as Geben-Hinnom (Josh. 15:8), and means the valley of the son or of Hinnom sons (2 Kings 23:10). It was situated south of Jerusalem and was known as a place of fire because it was there, in the time of Ahaz and Manasseh, that children were roasted to death as sacrifices to Moloch (2 Kings 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6). The godly King Josiah declared this place unclean (2 Kings 23:10) and Jeremiah pronounced terrible threats over it (Jer. 7:32; 19:6). It also was a place where the garbage of the city burned. These are the reasons why Ge-Hinnom or Gehenna became a designation for the final hell.
In Mark 9:43, Gehenna is designated as the place of “unquenchable fire”[12], meaning that the punishment for unbelievers who enter it will never end; it is everlasting, eternal, as is confirmed in
Matt. 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (ESV).
Gehenna always means hell in the NT. Commentator William Hendriksen (1975:366) states that “Gehenna receives both body and soul of the wicked after the final judgment”. When the NT speaks of Gehenna as a place of “unquenchable fire”, the point is not that there is a fire burning in the Gehenna rubbish dump, but that unbelievers, the wicked, will have to endure torment forever. There they will experience the wrath of God.
The phrase “lake of fire” only occurs in the Book of Revelation – 6 times [19:20; 20:10, 14 (twice), 15: 21:8]. John tells us that this is the “second death” (20:14). This is the place for everyone whose name is not written in the book of life – it is the place for ALL unbelievers in Christ. They are separated from the living God and suffer torment eternally.
How are we to understand “Death and Hades” in Rev. 20:14?[13] Death is a state and Hades is a place. Of course death and Hades are connected. In Rev. 6:8, we have the fourth seal opened where the rider on the pale horse is Death, and Hades follows closely behind. Hades is the place where the souls of unbelievers are kept in the intermediate state. It is not to be identified with the grave. Rather, Hades is the place where both believers and unbelievers repose until Christ’s second coming.
By contrast, Gehenna (hell) is the final place of endless suffering/punishment for unbelievers. According to Rev. 20:14-15, when Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, the authority of the state of Death and the place of Hades is ended. The temporary power of Death and Hades becomes permanent in the lake of fire for unbelievers who are suffering permanently and continuously in hell. (See my article,
‘Eternal torment for unbelievers when they die‘
.
John 3:16 provides us with the motivation that we should be proclaiming the Gospel so that believers can come to eternal life in Christ and unbelievers warned of what happens at death (perishing, eternal torment): “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life (
ESV).
Some want to teach the annihilation of unbelievers at death.
CARM[14] states that:
Annihilationism is the teaching that the unbeliever, after death, will eventually be annihilated. Annihilation is the teaching that the non-Christian ceases to exist after death. Within this view are two main categories. First, that the unredeemed will automatically be annihilated. Second, that the unredeemed, after an appropriate amount of time of suffering, will be annihilated.
I highly recommend the CARM article, ‘
Is annihilation true?‘ For a brief refutation of the annihilation doctrine as taught by the SDAs, see my article, “
Refutation of the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine of what happens at death“.
Annihilation of the wicked at death is false teaching for the reasons given above.
What should be our understanding of death?
- God told the man in Genesis 2:17, “For in the day that you eat of it [the tree of the knowledge of good and evil] you shall surely die” and “he ate” (Gen. 3:6). But he did not die physically. He and his wife continued to live on. So death, from God’s perspective, does not mean extinction. Death by annihilation / extinction is not how God understands the end of human life on earth.
- The length of time of punishment at the final judgement given to those on Christ’s left (the damned) will be “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46). The length of time for those on His right (the righteous) will be “eternal life”. The duration of time for each is exactly the same -aiwnios – eternal. It goes on forever and ever and ever. There is no extinction, conditional immortality or annihilation here.
- Some want to labour Rom. 6:23, “the wages of sin is death”. It is good that we consider this Scripture, but what does this say in the Greek? It does not say, “The wages of our sins is death”. It states, “the wages of the sin (singular with definite article) is death”.[15] So, it is referring to the power of sin, which entered the entire human race when Adam committed that one act of sin and brought the slavery of sin to all. The redeemed have had this slavery to sin broken at the cross of Christ. So the wages of sin is death does not mean that an unbeliever receives the wages of extinction, annihilation, conditional immortality. The death which the sin brought and which will be the final destination for the unbeliever is eternal, permanent separation from God and enduring God’s punishment. That’s how I understand the Bible!
No matter how hard people try to squeeze the texts, we can’t change the meaning of death for Adam, Eve and the entire, unredeemed human race. We can’t change the length of time for the punishing of the damned – eternal.
I have written quite a bit for my homepage on the doctrine of what happens at death for unbelievers. Here is a sample:
For further teaching on the doctrine of hell, I suggest that you read:
- Robert A. Peterson 1995, Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment. Phillipsburg, New Jersey: P&R Publishing;
- Robert A. Morey 1984., Death and the Afterlife. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers. See his article, 'Sheol, Hades & Gehenna';
- John Blanchard 1993, Whatever Happened to Hell? Darlington, Co. Durham, England: Evangelical Press,
- Eryl Davies 1987, Condemned For Ever! Welwyn, Hertfordshire, England: Evangelical Press.
Sincerely, Oz
