Is Hell fair?

[Messy]

Why, oh why do you do this?

Euhm, when I have a question I ask google. Thanks for the tip to not trust anything.

 

[abacabb3]

No Augustine, before him they didn't preach eternal damnation.

Though I am not expert on Augustine, the Bible does call hell eternal. It's not something "they" randomly made up.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason people don't believe this is that they reach out to atheists, who fell off their faith primarily because of eternal hell preaching and people doubting their faith because of the concept of eternal hell which isn't even Biblical?

How does people's feelings being hurt make something any more or less true?

You reveal that your doctrine on hell has nothing to do with Scripture.

Plain reading of the mistranslated text leads to it, not plain reading of the original.

What original manuscript(s)? Sounds like you are making stuff up.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, well they have translations and then it doesn't mean what it says, don't know. I read it here:
Aionos

Other option was that Gehenna will be judged by their works (no judgement for believers, because we don't come under judgement any more) and only for people like Hitler and the Pharisees there is no hope. Outside will be the killers and everything.

However, you stated at #96, 'I don't know much about church history and not enough about this theory'.

I suggest that you are digging yourself into a theological hole for which you don't have an exegetical ladder to get out of - based on your own statement about your lack of knowledge in this area.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Euhm, when I have a question I ask google. Thanks for the tip to not trust anything.

Do you know what that means? Since when was Google an authoritative source for the Greek language? It may lead you to an authoritative source if you know the source you look for AND it is available on Google.

Would you please direct me to a website that contains the entire Arndt & Gingrich Greek lexicon that is available free to all Internet users? However, to read Arndt & Gingrich, you'll need to be able to read the Greek words. I recommend that you be more discerning about the sources that you quote when trying to understand the meaning of a Greek word in the Greek New Testament. Using a search engine such as Google or Bing will not help you do that automatically.

Oz

 

[Messy]

Though I am not expert on Augustine, the Bible does call hell eternal. It's not something "they" randomly made up.

You reveal that your doctrine on hell has nothing to do with Scripture.

What original manuscript(s)? Sounds like you are making stuff up.

That's what they say when you read about universalism. I got a document about it at unorthodox theology. It's what Sadhu Sundhar Singh saw too.

 

[OzSpen]

That's what they say when you read about universalism. I got a document about it at unorthodox theology. It's what Sadhu Sundhar Singh saw too.

This article on Sadhu Sundar Singh states that he believed in the heretical doctrine of universalism. See HERE.

Do you support universalism - that all people will receive salvation?

Oz

 

[Messy]

Eternal hell for everyone the same makes no sense in these texts:

Matthew 12
Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 11
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[d] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

And He saved the people from before the flood after they'd been there for 4000 years.

 

[Messy]

This article on Sadhu Sundar Singh states that he believed in the heretical doctrine of universalism. See HERE.

Do you support universalism - that all people will receive salvation?

Oz

I don't know, I'm just reading about it and checking it out. It could be, but I don't have much hope for the Pharisees or a Hitler or something and actually I couldn't care less. Maybe only the ones that did some good works and had some love in them, don't know.

 

[HadassahJoy]

Hell is for sinners who denyed God,

 

[abacabb3]

That's what they say when you read about universalism. I got a document about it at unorthodox theology. It's what Sadhu Sundhar Singh saw too.

Again, do you have a manuscript to substantiate your claims or are we making it up as we go along?

 

[abacabb3]

Eternal hell for everyone the same makes no sense in these texts:

Matthew 12
Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 11
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[d] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

And He saved the people from before the flood after they'd been there for 4000 years.

No, it can make sense...and you ignore the verses that explicitly call it eternal.

 

[abacabb3]

I don't know, I'm just reading about it and checking it out. It could be, but I don't have much hope for the Pharisees or a Hitler or something and actually I couldn't care less. Maybe only the ones that did some good works and had some love in them, don't know.

So people are saved by works now?

God have mercy on all of us if we are saved by works.

 

[Francois Mostert]

Let me add the question from a different angle?

Is it fair for God to send His ONE and only Son to die for sinners? Is it fair to Christ? Is it fair to the Father or the Holy Spirit?

Yet it is God's will that the Son should be crushed! See Isaiah 53 Jesus willingly gave his life! The Holy Spirit willingly laid the sin of the World on Him and raised us with Christ.

Now a God who loves us so much to GIVE HIMSELF so we might be with Him is worthy of all my devotion!

Heaven and Hell and eternal judgement and blessing boils down to whether you can BELIEF in His rescuing love for you! Rejecting HIM you condemn yourself.

[BIBLE]John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.[/BIBLE]

Eternal hell for mankind would be fair but God instead give us UNFAIRLY at the COST of His own comfort an UNDESERVED ETERNAL knowledge of HIMSELF!

The question of Heaven and Hell has less to do with LAW and JUDGEMENT and a whole lot more to do with GRACE and LOVE and God's Salvation in Jesus.

Receive his love like a child, and reach out in the Holy Spirit to the the lost and fellowship with him in his suffering and glory as He saves many more "church killers" like Saul and transform them into messengers of Grace like Paul!

In terms of the debate I certainly do belief in an ETERNAL HELL and an ETERNAL HEAVEN. Eternal punishment and eternal bliss.

I am eternally thankful that Jesus saved me by His Grace and I labor with Him wanting all men to be saved by His Grace.

These questions are not easy but the revealed truth is steadfast and we can either work with Him in faith as we gather the Sheep into following the Shepherd or we can doubt the revelation and debate while the lost sheep are gathered by others who labor with Him for the salvation of souls!

 

[Francois Mostert]

Discipleship | TASTE LIFE Consultancy

 

[Messy]

So people are saved by works now?

God have mercy on all of us if we are saved by works.

Well it says He judges on that. I was hungry.. but I don't think that's for real christians and faith without works is dead.

 

[abacabb3]

Well it says He judges on that. I was hungry.. but I don't think that's for real christians and faith without works is dead.

No one is saved outside of Christ.

 

[Ringo84]

The God of love is the God of discipline and punishment - like a good parent today.

God's punishment isn't at issue. The problem comes when we talk about an infinitely loving God who throws people into hell because they never believed in Him.

I'm sticking with what the Scriptures declare and not making up what I want them to say.

Who's making anything up? I'm questioning something that doesn't jive with what I understand to be God's nature.

Yet it is God's will that the Son should be crushed! See Isaiah 53 Jesus willingly gave his life! The Holy Spirit willingly laid the sin of the World on Him and raised us with Christ.

Now a God who loves us so much to GIVE HIMSELF so we might be with Him is worthy of all my devotion!

Right. But if we don't accept the gift of Jesus' salvation in a finite lifetime, we get to go to hell?
Ringo

 

[Messy]

No one is saved outside of Christ.

Of course, but maybe they have a chance to accept Him, because the people in the time of Noah were just wicked and they got saved. I'm not sure, I just think so. It doesn't matter anyway, even if it is for 1 thousand years it's bad enough, so better just pray for all people (1 Timothy), instead of worrying about it.

 

[Messy]

Right. But if we don't accept the gift of Jesus' salvation in a finite lifetime, we get to go to hell?
Ringo

Ian McCormack was an atheist who went to heaven, because his mother prayed for him and God showed him in his last breath He was real and he prayed the sinner's prayer. He went to heaven, but came back to tell it.

 

[abacabb3]

Ian McCormack was an atheist who went to heaven, because his mother prayed for him and God showed him in his last breath He was real and he prayed the sinner's prayer. He went to heaven, but came back to tell it.

Or, it could have been a false profession of faith, we don't know.