Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

[Ttalkkugjil]

Why do you call Him a Her?

Why do you seek to derail the thread?

 

[DamianWarS]

If you are someone opposed to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, please give your reasons for being opposed, and preferably back up your argument from the text of Scripture.

if we look at the creation account within a salvation allegory what we see is a pre-salvation state of chaos and darkness consistent with an individuals depravity before salvation. Then divine light is spoken into this chaos/darkness, is distinctly separated from it and is called good. This is the first work of goodness and this is the salvation event.

Jesus claims this light identity saying "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life" Darkness is what we have without Christ, and with Christ he is the first light and act of salvation as a unique experience to water baptism. This is also confirmed in the house of Cornelius event that salvation is a separate experience from water baptism.

Moving on in this allegory day 2 hits which is about organizing the waters below and above and this is baptism. if this can be said to be a salvation allegory day 1 or light is salvation and day 2 or water is baptism.

Now it is also suggested that the spirit hovering over the deep waters in this state of darkness and chaos is the baptism metaphor that ushers in light so in this theory baptism and salvation are blurred together. But the issue with this foreshadowing baptism is that it's missing an actual baptism that is better reconciled in day 2 with the waters below than rising in the waters above. In the creation account this could not happen prior to day 2 since these waters were yet to be organized to allow this so pre-day 2 there is only the deep (death) and there is no rising to the waters above.

 

[nolidad]

Hu? I am saying baptism of the Holy Spirit is different from baptism. Baptism of HS can happen seperate from repentance.

Well the one time repentance unto salvation brings with it the infilling or the baptism of the holy spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells a person the moment of salvation.

 

[nolidad]

Let's get back to the actual topic of the thread.

I am willing but when you mischaracterize a person of the Trinity- it must be addressed. Then we move on!

 

[ViaCrucis]

So then why we have "These are the signs that follow" ?

Mark 16:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So when's the last time you drank poison to prove that you're saved?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Phil W]

Was the Apostle Paul a believer before Ananias laid hands on him to receive the Spirit?
What went wrong in Samaria? The newly baptized believers needed the Apostles to lay hands on them to receive the Spirit. How did they even know that had not received the Spirit? What was the evidence? And after they laid hands on them, what was the evidence?

I don't know what you are trying to get at?

Paul was a believer before he met Ananias.
A believer ripe for baptismal cleansing, in the name of Jesus Christ, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Samaria?
An act of God to show that God could use the apostles to give the Holy Ghost.
How did Philip know they had not received the baptism of the Holy Ghost?
They didn't speak in tongues.

 

[Phil W]

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

I hope you will elaborate.

 

[Phil W]

The inward reality is more important than the outward ceremony.
This statement actually addresses the topic. The claim of baptismal regeneration is false.

Your "inward reality" is accomplished with the outward action.

Baptism is a ceremony. A ceremony is an outward sign or testimony of an inward reality.
This is why I don't believe in infant baptism. There is no inward reality.

I don't believe in infant baptism because a baby has no sin to wash away.
He has no need to crucify the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

When we decide to follow Christ, we die to our old self and walk in newness of life. Many who make that decision feel the weight lifted as they leave the old behind. They may not be baptized until months or years later, Some not at all. Are they saved by faith? I would say, "Yes!"

I'ld say no.
Your chain of events is contrary to the Acts of the apostles.

Where is baptism in the scripture below?
Romans 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

It is accomplished at water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
It is written..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:4-7)

Your "chain" lacks the ability to bury anything...much less raise it again.

 

[Phil W]

Point one: The early part of acts describes a transition in history for Israel! Acts is a book of history! The doctrine for the church is found from Romans through Jude! That does not mean we cannot learn and apply precepts from Acts (for nothing was unsound )

Did not the apostles use the things "doctrinized" in Romans through Jude?

Point 2: It is the Baptism of the Spirit which kills the old man (2 Cor. 5) that saves us- not being immersed in water! Baptism is simply a public declaration of what has already taken place on the inside.

Perhaps you meant another chapter or book, as I see no mention of a baptism of the Spirit in your reference.
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is done by God.
It is a gift given to those who have repented of sin and, in all cases but Cornelius, been baptized by men in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Point 3:Well then you deny Eph. 2:8 and Romans 10 as true for you require water baptism as a requisite for salvation.

To those without the Eph. 2:8 faith, water baptism is just as some here proclaim...just a ceremony.
But with that faith it is the actual death, burial, and resurrection with Christ.
Who then, has the most faith?

Point 4: It springs from Acts 2 and the fact that everyone who believed Jesus was the Messiah- now had to trust in his death and resurrection for salvation. The gospel of salvation (trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone as the payment for my sin) has been the requirement for entrance in to the body and heaven since Pentecost.[/QUOT]
I trusted in the death and resurrection of Christ in order to join with Him in my death, burial, and resurrection with Christ...when I was "immersed" into Him and into His loving death and suffering, at my water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6 Col 2:11-13)

Point 5: That is because you think wrongly of the keys! You have yet shown that the keys have been transferred to every believer either in direct quote or implication.

But if the keys were simply to open the way for the gospel to be preached to all peoples and Peter was the first to declare the gospel to all peoples (Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles) as Acts clearly shows, then once he preached to Cornelius, all doors were opened!

It is written..."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17)
Gee, Peter was no where in sight when I heard the "Keys" of my salvation.
In fact, it was a deacon of the church who delivered the "keys" to me.

 

[nolidad]

Was the Apostle Paul a believer before Ananias laid hands on him to receive the Spirit?
What went wrong in Samaria? The newly baptized believers needed the Apostles to lay hands on them to receive the Spirit. How did they even know that had not received the Spirit? What was the evidence? And after they laid hands on them, what was the evidence?

That just shows- they could not enter the body of Christ (by the reception of the Holy spirit) until Peter opened the door for the Samaritans to enter the Kingdom Once Peter opened the way then all Samaritans would be saved and sealed by the Spirit instantaneously!

But now let me ask you a question. If you reject what the-keys mean as I have written- what do you say the keys that were given to Peter for?? Were they to institute the Popery?

 

[Phil W]

I agree ! My good works are a result of my being saved!

Jesus is our Lord when we are obedient and when we are disobedient Children of God! Our acts do not change the sovereignty of God in our life.

You are fooling yourself.
We follow the good Shepherd, and the devil's children don't.

So you believe that when you sin, you are lost? If not how many sins does it take to lose your salvation?

Sin manifests no "turn from" sin...no repentance.
Sin shows that the old man wasn't killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Sin shows the Holy Ghost isn't guiding your every step.

Adam lost his "paradise" with one sin.
If you can do good works "because you are saved", to what do you attribute "bad works"?

 

[nolidad]

You are fooling yourself.
We follow the good Shepherd, and the devil's children don't.


Sin manifests no "turn from" sin...no repentance.
Sin shows that the old man wasn't killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Sin shows the Holy Ghost isn't guiding your every step.

Adam lost his "paradise" with one sin.
If you can do good works "because you are saved", to what do you attribute "bad works"?

So do you believe in sinless perfection in order to be saved?

Is your every thought word and deed 100% guided by the Spirit?
Do you believe you have not disobeyed God for X weeks or months or years?

I attribute the bad works to my old man, the human nature, the flesh as it is called. The old man is not resurrected as a new man- it is postionally killed and we become a brand new creature! God has declared me perfect- and now he is making me holy day by day! Hebrews 10:14.

I do not believe in a license to sin because every single one of my sins have already been judicially forgiven, but I also know that Jesus has already paid for every single on of my sins past present and future, so now I have the very righteousness of christ within me!



Yes Adam was kicked out of paradise for one sin- do you believe you will be kicked oput of your paradise by one sin?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

So when's the last time you drank poison to prove that you're saved?

-CryptoLutheran

You are deflecting.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Well the one time repentance unto salvation brings with it the infilling or the baptism of the holy spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells a person the moment of salvation.

Do you have support?

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are deflecting.

Then let me go back to the question I asked a few posts earlier,

"Is the word and promise of God in Jesus Christ not sufficient?"

Well, yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I am willing but when you mischaracterize a person of the Trinity- it must be addressed. Then we move on!

This thread is about baptismal regeneration.

Anything else - start a new thread or send me a PM.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Then let me go back to the question I asked a few posts earlier,

"Is the word and promise of God in Jesus Christ not sufficient?"

Well, yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran

Which verse are you using to justify that infants can have faith?

I provided examples about confession and belief in your heart.

I provided the verse that these are the signs that follow.

I provided an example of a deaf person or someone that speaks another language.

These example contradict your belief.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Which verse are you using to justify that infants can have faith?

I provided examples about confession and belief in your heart.

I provided the verse that these are the signs that follow.

I provided an example of a deaf person or someone that speaks another language.

These example contradict your belief.

Is that your answer to my question of is God's word and promise to us in Jesus sufficient or no? And as such you are saying that no, God's word and promise is not sufficient. Am I correct in my understanding of your position here?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Is that your answer to my question of is God's word and promise to us in Jesus sufficient or no? And as such you are saying that no, God's word and promise is not sufficient. Am I correct in my understanding of your position here?

-CryptoLutheran

I am questioning your verse .

Gods word is sufficient but our understanding is not.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am questioning your verse .

Gods word is sufficient

Good. Since God's word and promise is sufficient, then looking for signs, proofs, etc is the work of the sinful flesh; because faith does not look inward to the works of man, but outward to the works of God. Faith looks to God's word and believes it, trusts it.

If you are looking for signs then that isn't faith.

but our understanding is not.

Bingo. We are fallen, broken, fallible sinners. So we don't look to ourselves, to our intellect, our reason, our understanding. If we look inward we will find nothing but dead bones, that is why we must look outside of ourselves. I'm not saved because I said this, or thought that, or feel this way, or subscribe to theological propositions X, Y, and/or Z; I'm saved because Jesus Christ suffered, died, and rose from the dead and the Holy Spirit has taken hold of me through the Gospel, giving me faith, and taking what was dead and making it alive.

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:1-9

-CryptoLutheran