Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

[DamianWarS]

Absolutely not! The adjective is equal on both sides. Since he-man refuses to answer, why don't you tell us what the qualifications for aionial punishment are in the context of St. Matthew 25. They are?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Aionios life and aionial punishment are strictly related to ages. Now, if you would care to discuss Aidios life you will be in another dimension altogether!

I agree the word is ambiguous but if the punishment is ambiguous than is not the reward as well since they are qualified using the same adjective of time in the exact same context. Whatever the eternal punishment means it is meant to contrast the reward so the meaning of the reward should help us understand the meaning for the punishment

 

[ClementofA]

Heb 6:4　 For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,　

5　 and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come,　

6　 and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him .　

It is impossible to renew them to repentance (v.4) as long as they continue rejecting Christ (& while they are crucifying Him):

Hebrews 6:4-6 (CLV)
4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy. (CLV)

Verse 6:

ISV and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule.

AMPC If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

CJB and then have fallen away — it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.

In Acts 14:8 we read of a lame man who was unable to walk. It was impossible for him to walk. The same Greek word is used for "impossible" as in Hebrews 6. While it was impossible for the man to walk or cure himself of his inability to walk, it was possible with God's help. In verses 9-10 he was healed.

"The word 'impossible' here has the same force as in Matt. 19:26, where it is said to be impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In reply to the apostles' question,"who, then, can be saved?" Jesus said: "With men it is impossible, but with God everything is possible." This can be restated as, "With men it is hard but everything
is easy with God."

8　 but bringing forth thorns and briars, it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned.　

“The practice of burning fields has been around for a very long time–pretty much since the beginning of agriculture. And it’s always had one purpose: to clear out the weeds and thistles and thorns and prepare the field to accept good seed and yield good crops. In other words, if just tilling the field didn’t work, burning it was the next step, not as a sign that the field would never be any good and was to be abandoned, but in order to make it into a good field. I find it interesting, then, that of all the illustrations the author could have used to demonstrate the harsh judgment coming to apostates, he used one that, particularly to a society familiar with the practice, was redemptive, through and through.”

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

From the first 2 chapters of Hebrews:

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[ClementofA]

Mat 25:46 is an interesting verse because it contrasts both punishment and life using this adjective. So in context if we are to say that the aionios-punishment is only temporal than should not aionios-life also be looked at as temporal?

Is the life of God of the same duration as the life of a fly? One is temporary & the other is endless. So why should aionios punishment have to be of the same duration as aionios life? In Jonah 2:6 "forever" is only 3 days. In Isa.54:4 "everlasting shame" has an end:

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

 

[DamianWarS]

So why should aionios punishment have to be of the same duration as aionios life?

Because they are in the exact same context and are meant to contrast each other. This doesn't mean they are still exact but it does mean we should pay attention to how the concept of eternal reward is shaped to understand eternal punishment. At least with Mat 25:46

 

[ClementofA]

I agree the word is ambiguous but if the punishment is ambiguous than is not the reward as well since they are qualified using the same adjective of time in the exact same context. Whatever the eternal punishment means it is meant to contrast the reward so the meaning of the reward should help us understand the meaning for the punishment

What's ruling out aionios being finite in both occurrences in Mt.25:46? In that case the point is contrasting destinies pertaining to the eon to come, beyond which there is at least one more eon & eventually universal salvation.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

 

[ClementofA]

Because they are in the exact same context

I could speak of a tall man & a tall mountain in the same context/sentence. Does that mean the man is as tall as the mountain? Likewise in Rom.16:25-26 aionios is used twice in the same context. Is it coequal in duration there? How about Hab.3:6 where it occurs twice in the same verse?

Because they are...meant to contrast each other.

See my previous comment. Adjectives are meant to modify their subject, not our preconceived theological assumptions we bring to our reading of the bible.

This doesn't mean they are still exact but it does mean we should pay attention to how the concept of eternal reward is shaped to understand eternal punishment. At least with Mat 25:46

There's nothing in the verse ruling out an eternal reward for the righteous & a finite period of punishment for the wicked. In fact the word for punishment was used of correction for the good of the one punished.

 

[DamianWarS]

What's ruling out aionios being finite in both occurrences in Mt.25:46? In that case the point is contrasting destinies pertaining to the eon to come, beyond which there is at least one more eon & eventually universal salvation.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

Nothing is. I'm just pointing out we should look at them together while we figure out their meanings

 

[DamianWarS]

I could speak of a tall man & a tall mountain in the same context/sentence. Does that mean the man is as tall as the mountain? Likewise in Rom.16:25-26 aionios is used twice in the same context. Is it coequal in duration there? How about Hab.3:6 where it occurs twice in the same verse?



See my previous comment. Adjectives are meant to modify their subject, not our preconceived theological assumptions we bring to our reading of the bible.



There's nothing in the verse ruling out an eternal reward for the righteous & a finite period of punishment for the wicked. In fact the word for punishment was used of correction for the good of the one punished.

The Rom 16 text doesn't seem to be using contrasting concepts. The Hab text is poetic and it is all played together but abstractly. The Mat text however is a pretty clear contrast and one that I might add is widely repeating in the NT with this idea of punishment/reward, death/life or sin/grace. (Jhn 3:16 or Rom 6:23 for example)

As I said they don't have to mean the same thing but it feels like you are rejecting the contrast here which would be irresponsible.

 

[ClementofA]

The Rom 16 text doesn't seem to be using contrasting concepts. The Hab text is poetic and it is all played together but abstractly. The Mat text however is a pretty clear contrast and one that I might add is widely repeating in the NT with this idea of punishment/reward, death/life or sin/grace. (Jhn 3:16 or Rom 6:23 for example)

As I said they don't have to mean the same thing but it feels like you are rejecting the contrast here which would be irresponsible.

No one is denying a contrast between "life" & "punishment/correction" in Mt.25:46. What gave you that idea?

Why should "life" & "correction" have to be coequal in duration? In the sentence “The blessed stay in a tall high rise, but the wicked in a tall dungeon”, is the high rise equally as tall as the dungeon?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html


I've addressed Daniel 12:2, which is similar to Mt.25:46, here:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-30#post-72154410

John 3:16 & 3:36 here:

John 3:36:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-all-things-a-k-a-universalism.8070242/page-5
John 3:16:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-all-things-a-k-a-universalism.8070242/page-4

Rom.6:23 here:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/romans-6-23-eternal-life-vs-death/5901

 

[DamianWarS]

No one is denying a contrast between "life" & "punishment/correction" in Mt.25:46. What gave you that idea?

Why should "life" & "correction" have to be coequal in duration?

I've addressed Daniel 12:2, which is similar to Mt.25:46, here:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-30#post-72154410

John 3:16 & 3:36 here:

John 3:36:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-all-things-a-k-a-universalism.8070242/page-5
John 3:16:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-all-things-a-k-a-universalism.8070242/page-4

Rom.6:23 here:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/romans-6-23-eternal-life-vs-death/5901

in post #86 you directly quote me when I say they are meant to contrast each other and accuse me of inserting "preconceived theological assumptions" perhaps I misunderstood but it was a pretty specific quote you made.

regardless you're right in Daniel 12:2 reads similar but Hebrew is an extremely concrete language and it develops abstracts (like the word eternal) using concretes or using finite words. So Daniel uses this word "olam" which abstractly can mean eternal but more practically speaking it is a long period of time and is finite. Because the verse uses a finite word doesn't mean it can't be abstract and be infinite. That's just how Hebrew works and Matthew may use abstract greek as their language the words were coined probably from Aramaic which is similar to Hebrew and is still a very concrete language.

aionion can mean finite amount of time and it can also be used more abstractly just like Hebrew. However I think it would be irresponsible to interpret the Mathew text in a finite way. The anthesis to eternal reward may very well be finite but the context of the Mathew text is telling us it is the same as the eternal reward. Use "very long time" if you want but the eternal reward concept is also a "very long time". It's being used abstractly and although it doesn't have a specific expiry date it is showing us that either there is a very long punishment or a very long reward. The question of "when does it end?" or "how long is it?" I think misses the point.

 

[FineLinen]

I agree the word is ambiguous but if the punishment is ambiguous than is not the reward as well since they are qualified using the same adjective of time in the exact same context. Whatever the eternal punishment means it is meant to contrast the reward so the meaning of the reward should help us understand the meaning for the punishment

The koine aionios is far from ambiguous. It is in the same realm as the Hebrew olam, equally NOT ambiguous. I wonder why the Lord of glory is comparing two clean animals instead of one clean and the other unclean? Hummmmmm?

 

[ClementofA]

in post #86 you directly quote me when I say they are meant to contrast each other and accuse me of inserting "preconceived theological assumptions" perhaps I misunderstood but it was a pretty specific quote you made.

regardless you're right in Daniel 12:2 reads similar but Hebrew is an extremely concrete language and it develops abstracts (like the word eternal) using concretes or using finite words. So Daniel uses this word "olam" which abstractly can mean eternal but more practically speaking it is a long period of time and is finite. Because the verse uses a finite word doesn't mean it can't be abstract and be infinite. That's just how Hebrew works and Matthew may use abstract greek as their language the words were coined probably from Aramaic which is similar to Hebrew and is still a very concrete language.

aionion can mean finite amount of time and it can also be used more abstractly just like Hebrew. However I think it would be irresponsible to interpret the Mathew text in a finite way. The anthesis to eternal reward may very well be finite but the context of the Mathew text is telling us it is the same as the eternal reward. Use "very long time" if you want but the eternal reward concept is also a "very long time". It's being used abstractly and although it doesn't have a specific expiry date it is showing us that either there is a very long punishment or a very long reward. The question of "when does it end?" or "how long is it?" I think misses the point.

Why should "life" & "correction" have to be coequal in duration? In the sentence “The blessed stay in a tall high rise, but the wicked in a tall dungeon”, is the high rise equally as tall as the dungeon?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as elaborated upon here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Furthermore, if aionion in Mt.25:46 means pertaining to the eon (or eons) to come, then the righteous will enter into the life that pertains to the eon (or eons) to come, and the unrighteous will enter into the punishment/correction that pertains to the eon (or eons) to come. But it does not follow that the life pertaining to that eon (or eons) will be of the same duration as the punishment/correction that pertains to that eon (or eons). That is pure assumption. Not what the text says.

If believers go into the life aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come) & unbelievers go into the punishment aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come), does that prove that the punishment must absolutely be co-extensive with the life? No. Does it prove that the age to come is not finite? No.

Could both occurrences of aionios in Mt.25:46 refer to a finite age (or ages) to come? Yes.

If aionios is of equal duration in both occurrences of Mt.25:46, shouldn't "all mankind" (Rom.5:18), "the many" (Rom.5:19) and "all" (1 Cor.15:22, 28) be co-extensive in number in these passages:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in ALL.

 

[DamianWarS]

Why should "life" & "correction" have to be coequal in duration? In the sentence “The blessed stay in a tall high rise, but the wicked in a tall dungeon”, is the high rise equally as tall as the dungeon?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as elaborated upon here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Furthermore, if aionion in Mt.25:46 means pertaining to the eon (or eons) to come, then the righteous will enter into the life that pertains to the eon (or eons) to come, and the unrighteous will enter into the punishment/correction that pertains to the eon (or eons) to come. But it does not follow that the life obtained then will be of equal duration as the correction/punishment. That is pure assumption. Not what the text says.

If believers go into the life aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come) & unbelievers go into the punishment aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come), does that prove that the punishment must absolutely be co-extensive with the life? No. Does it prove that the age to come is not finite? No.

Could both occurrences of aionios in Mt.25:46 refer to a finite age (or ages) to come? Yes.

If aionios is of equal duration in both occurrences of Mt.25:46, shouldn't "all mankind" (Rom.5:18), "the many" (Rom.5:19) and "all" (1 Cor.15:22, 28) be co-extensive in number in these passages:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in ALL.

the Mathew 25 text doesn't really support this idea of a finite punishment, not in a specific sense at least. The point is that there is both punishment and reward and both are for a long time. whether they are for the same period of time or one ends and the other continues is not the focus of the text. Could they be these things? sure but the text doesn't tell us this so we shouldn't try and force it form the text. The take away from this feels very permanent as the other parable's don't allow a temporary punishment and the servant is simply thrown out and the virgins are not allowed in with no suggestion of that punishment ending, it simply is. In context Jesus seems to want the punishment to feel as powerful as the reward. If the punishment is actually this way is a different story but Mathew 25 doesn't tell us this.

 

[ClementofA]

the Mathew 25 text doesn't really support this idea of a finite punishment, not in a specific sense at least.

Mt.25:46 is commonly cited as a "proof text" against universalism. My purpose isn't to prove that it supports a finite punishment, but that it can be interpreted in harmony with other passages of the Scriptures Universalists present for their position, e.g. Rom.5:18, 19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Phil.2:9-11, etc. The burden of proof is on those citing Mt.25:46 as being opposed to finite punishment to prove their case. But obviously they cannot do so, as i've demonstrated.

The point is that there is both punishment and reward and both are for a long time.

Do we know it will be punishment/correction for a long time for everyone? As noted earlier "forever" is only 3 days in Jonah 2:6. Will it take everyone the same amount of time to be corrected? Luke 12 says:

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

whether they are for the same period of time or one ends and the other continues is not the focus of the text. Could they be these things? sure but the text doesn't tell us this so we shouldn't try and force it form the text. The take away from this feels very permanent as the other parable's don't allow a temporary punishment and the servant is simply thrown out and the virgins are not allowed in with no suggestion of that punishment ending, it simply is.

Some other remarks from Matthew's gospel may be significant in this regard:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

 

[DamianWarS]

Mt.25:46 is commonly cited as a "proof text" against universalism. My purpose isn't to prove that it supports a finite punishment, but that it can be interpreted in harmony with other passages of the Scriptures Universalists present for their position, e.g. Rom.5:18, 19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Phil.2:9-11, etc. The burden of proof is on those citing Mt.25:46 as being opposed to finite punishment to prove their case. But obviously they cannot do so, as i've demonstrated.



Do we know it will be punishment/correction for a long time for everyone? As noted earlier "forever" is only 3 days in Jonah 2:6. Will it take everyone the same amount of time to be corrected? Luke 12 says:

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.




Some other remarks from Matthew's gospel may be significant in this regard:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

I get that you are using other verses to form this universalist idea but Mat 25 simply does not show universalism nor do the preceding parables show it. Mat 25 doesn't fit universalism nor does it magically fit it just because other verses seem to indicate otherwise. It shows us once you're out your out with no backdoors or second chances... now other parts of scripture seems to be quite different but the point Jesus seems to be making here is quite strict.

 

[he-man]

Mat 25:46 is an interesting verse because it contrasts both punishment and life using this adjective. So in context if we are to say that the aionios-punishment is only Temporal than should not aionios-life also be looked at as temporal?

which is the second death. G622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

άπόλλυμι for its conj. s. 131-D. § 101, ρ. 47; Rob. 317; fut. άπoλέσω Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. άπολώ 1 Cοr 1:19 (Ιs 29:14); 1 aοr. άπώλεσα; 1 pf. άπ-oλώλεκα; fut. mid. άπολουμαι Lk 13: 3; 2 aοr. άπωλόμην; the 2 pf. άπόλωλα serves as a ρf. mid., ρtc. άπολωλώς (Ηοm. + ; inscr., pap., LΧΧ, Εn., Philο, Joseph., Test. 12 Pαtr.).

1. act.—a. ruin, destroy.
α. οf pers. (Sir 10: 3) Mk 1: 24; Lk 4: 34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μή έκείνον άπόλλνε do not bring about his ruin Rο 14: 15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20: 4; Εsth 9: 6 ν.1.; 1 Μαcc 2: 37; Jos.,C. Αρ. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίoν Μt 2: 13; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Ηerm. Wr. 4, 7) Αbs. οf a people perish J 11: 50. Of individuals (Lev 23: 30) Αc 5: 37; 2 Pt 3: 9; 1 Cl 12: 6; 39: 5 (Job 4: 20).—Esp. οf eternal death (cf. Ps 9: 6f [5f]; 36[37]: 20; 67: 3[68: 2]; 91: 10[92: 9]; Is 41: 11) J 3: 16; 17: 12. άπολέσθαι εiς τδν αίώνα perish forever 10: 28 (Bar 3: 3 ήμεiς άπoλλύμενοι τόν αίώνα). άνόμως ά. Rο 2: 12; μωρώς ά. ΙΕρh 17:
BAG A Greek English Lexicon fourth edition (of Bauer's Wόrterbuch)

In Mark 9:49 Jesus says "For everyone will be salted with fire" (interestingly, in Greek this sentence has the grammatical structure of an obvious statement of fact, similar to "for [everyone knows that] everyone will be salted with fire"). Peter repeats this idea in 2 Peter 3:7 "but now, by the same Word [that is Jesus], heaven and earth are saved and kept for fire on the day of judgment, and the destruction of impious men

What penalty will suffer, everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
2 Thessalonicher 1:9 (Elberfelder 1905 (German))

Death, eternal
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty [G1349 δικην] of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The necessary consequence of sin
Romans 6:16 Romans 6:21 ; 8:13 ; James 1:15

The wages of sin
Romans 6:23

The portion of the wicked
Matthew 25:41 Matthew 25:46 ; Romans 1:32

God alone can inflict
Matthew 10:28 ; James 4:12

IS DESCRIBED AS Banishment from God 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Outer darkness Matthew 25:30
A mist of darkness for ever 2 Peter 2:17 Indignation, wrath, Romans 2:8 Romans 2:9

IS CALLED Destruction Romans 9:22 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Perishing 2 Peter 2:12; The wrath to come 1 Thessalonians 1:10; The second death Revelation 2:11; A resurrection to judgment
John 5:29; A resurrection to shame & contempt Daniel 12:2; Everlasting penalty Matthew 25:46

Shall be inflicted by Christ Matthew 25:31 Matthew 25:41 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:7 2 Thessalonians 1:8 Christ, the only way of escape from John 3:16 ; 8:51 ; Acts 4:12 Saints shall escape
Revelation 2:11 ; 20:6
Luke 16:23-26
Torrey, R.A., Reverand. "Entry for 'Death, eternal'". "The New Topical Text Book"

that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost
it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is calledτω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.

Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Psalms 21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Psalms 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[he-man]

It is impossible to renew them to repentance (v.4) as long as they continue rejecting Christ (& while they are crucifying Him):

Hebrews 6:4-6 (CLV)
4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy. (CLV)

Verse 6:

ISV and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule.

AMPC If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

CJB and then have fallen away — it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” Exodus 19:5-6 (NIV)

In Mark 9:49 Jesus says "For everyone will be salted with fire" (interestingly, in Greek this sentence has the grammatical structure of an obvious statement of fact, similar to "for [everyone knows that] everyone will be salted with fire"). Peter repeats this idea in 2 Peter 3:7 "but now, by the same Word [that is Jesus], heaven and earth are saved and kept for fire on the day of judgment, and the destruction of impious men

What penalty will suffer, everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
2 Thessalonicher 1:9 (Elberfelder 1905 (German))

Death, eternal
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty [G1349 δικην] of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[FineLinen]

I get that you are using other verses to form this universalist idea but Mat 25 simply does not show universalism nor do the preceding parables show it. Mat 25 doesn't fit universalism nor does it magically fit it just because other verses seem to indicate otherwise. It shows us once you're out your out with no backdoors or second chances... now other parts of scripture seems to be quite different but the point Jesus seems to be making here is quite strict.

You are right! St. Matthew chapter 25 supports the Lord's flock of sheep and goats being separated. They are both clean animals, not one clean and one unclean. While you can spend endless hours discussing aionios, olam and aidios, and let's add pantokrator to the discussion, this parable of the Master regards His own people, His flocks. Would you like to discuss "everlasting punishment" more fully???

 

[DamianWarS]

You are right! St. Matthew chapter 25 supports the Lord's flock of sheep and goats being separated. They are both clean animals, not one clean and one unclean. While you can spend endless hours discussing aionios, olam and aidios, and let's add pantokrator to the discussion, this parable of the Master regards His own people, His flocks. Would you like to discuss "everlasting punishment" more fully???

I don't have a eternal hell agenda here. I just don't like people misusing scripture to support whatever doctrine they have. In Mat 25 aionios is the same as aionios and that's just how it is.

 

[FineLinen]

I don't have a eternal hell agenda here. I just don't like people misusing scripture to support whatever doctrine they have. In Mat 25 aionios is the same as aionios and that's just how it is.

My friend, there are many abodes in Father's House. My agenda is to please Him and attempt to walk in union with His purposes in the Master, Christ Jesus. There are many colors in the poikilos God, and various degrees of intensity. Aionios, like its sister olam, has various degrees of time frames all coming to an end, unlike Adios rooted firmly in the Adios God of glory who is the Eternal God.